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RE: Hard Limits - 4/20/2009 2:18:46 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

Also I deal mostly with slaves, not bratty playbunnys!

That was fairly offensive, RM.

I didn't find it offensive, I saw it as Master Raven is conveying a preference and a seperation. There is a lot to be said for differentiating between different types of people - and so called limits are one of those issues which get fucked up when people date those they are incompatable with. So many people assume that limits are limits and that's that across the board. They aren't for different types of people.

the.dark.

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RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Post #: 41

RE: Hard Limits - 4/20/2009 4:51:51 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Only to those who want to take offence. I deal with slaves, they are more likely to desplay the traits I mentioned. A bratty playbunny isn't likely to submit so isn't pulled to please in the same way.

I'm submissive to him, drawn to please him and oftentimes what pleases him most is for me to be a "bratty playbunny" who instigates play. You've defined things as exclusive which are not necessarily so.

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Cynical and proud of it!

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Post #: 42

RE: Hard Limits - 4/20/2009 5:04:46 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Only to those who want to take offence. I deal with slaves, they are more likely to desplay the traits I mentioned. A bratty playbunny isn't likely to submit so isn't pulled to please in the same way.

I'm submissive to him, drawn to please him and oftentimes what pleases him most is for me to be a "bratty playbunny" who instigates play. You've defined things as exclusive which are not necessarily so.

As I said, those who want to take offence will do so and I don't much care. I don't pretend to be PC and don't fart about trying to avoid stepping on peoples toes so much that I end up not saying what I set out to say. I explained why what I do works with what I deal with. Others in different situations will use different methods.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 43

RE: Hard Limits - 4/20/2009 8:51:00 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

Ahhh, the oh so wonderful limits thread. Always good to bring about the heavy duty debaters and one true wayers

I read the thread, and decided to keep away from the whole debate and instead just comment on your questions and doubts, one by one.
Limits are tricky things; they mean so many different things for so many different people, not to mention that not everyone defines their own limits in the same way. Some look at limits as nothing more than what is listed on the profile section of the site; some go a bit deeper and define them as moral/ethical issues. There are no hard and fast rules when dealing with this topic; what's more, there is no 'right way' and no 'wrong way' of defining them. There is only MY WAY ( my way meaning the person who is doing the defining. )

There are very few things that I will not do in life and that includes some things that are listed under the umbrella of BDSM. I don't have limits though. I have boundaries in life that are set in stone; no one can cross them, no one can change them, no one can cause me to cross/change them. They are boundaries that I set for myself long before I ever thought of becoming involved with a man; I may have redirected them from time to time over the years; but they have still remained boundaries.

I have been in a relationship where I was asked to do some pretty horrific things; I have had some pretty horrific things done to me while in that relationship. Yet, never, was I asked or told to cross or change a boundary that was in place. What's more, he knew that to request such a thing of me, was to end the relationship the minute the words left his mouth.
Refusal has nothing to do with lack of trust, loyalty, or devotion to the relationship/partner. It has to do with being true to yourself. If a person can not look at themselves at the end of the day, and be content with what they see...then the relationship is damaging to them and they need to make some serious changes.

Most partners are more concerned with the wellbeing of their SO than they are with 'pushing the limits or boundaries' of the relationship. When it comes right down to it, most will not make a request that they know would be damaging in some way.

Just my thoughts on it though.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

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Post #: 44

RE: Hard Limits - 4/20/2009 3:12:05 PM

SilverMoonSlave

Posts: 26
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline

VelvetCruelty.. beautiful woman that you are.. IrishMist, marie2, marysdream, Ravenmuse, DesFIP, and forgive me if i skipped over anyone..

I thank you all for your input and wise words. It is refreshing to know I am not alone.

(in reply to VelvetCruelty)

Post #: 45

RE: Hard Limits - 4/20/2009 3:17:21 PM

SilverMoonSlave

Posts: 26
Joined: 2/23/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

<deleted sage words for brevity>
Refusal has nothing to do with lack of trust, loyalty, or devotion to the relationship/partner. It has to do with being true to yourself. If a person can not look at themselves at the end of the day, and be content with what they see...then the relationship is damaging to them and they need to make some serious changes.
Just my thoughts on it though.

I especially like that part!!

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 46

RE: Hard Limits - 4/20/2009 6:00:00 PM

Zechriel

Posts: 308
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline

Good evening!
i agree with most everything here..and disagree as well. Mine is a situation that I hope no one finds themselves in but yet some probably will. I love my Daddy-Daddy for a whole year. Sure I was bratty but hey, I was still spoiled rotten. he took care of my kids, took interest in me, said he loved me..the whole thing. Then one day it falls apart. he pushes me away saying he tried but he 's just a "Selfish bastard that needs his space at times". I can see he was making himself the bad guy so I would walk but I begged for 2 days and he hits me with my own words-"I would do anything for you." Put up or shut Z..I am putting up.

I am now a no limits slave, even my hard limits which I thought were not included -in my mind-when I said that-he does. The only thing I can do now i pray and trust that he does not push me on them. To walk away is not conceivable... I made a promise and grew to love him, maybe I'm old fashioned ::shrugs:: So I go shuffle along day to day,and maybe the confusion of what changed so drastically will make itself clear, maybe Master will learn the difference between strict and mean-cause right now he says he's going to be stricter but instead he is acting meaner! And maybe he will remember that in finding himself during this time, he will learn to trust I love him. cause as he said, "No one like me deserves to be loved." But I do..so I wait. I can only trust that in giving him everything, he will use his heart and mind not to use everything, maybe he just wants complete trust? Time will tell but that is my story...Good luck.
Love,
Zechriel

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Sir HighlanderME's little z

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 47

RE: Hard Limits - 4/20/2009 7:15:42 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

I didn't find it offensive, I saw it as Master Raven is conveying a preference and a seperation.

Which is fine, .dark, people should have their preferences. That said, to me the line read as "any s-type that isn't a slave is a bratty playbunny". I'm aware that I may have misunderstood the intent of the statement, and if so, I apologize. If not, I stand by my opinion. It is not a matter of PC to express one's preferences without making derogatory comments about those who are not what one is looking for, it is simple courtesy.

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
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Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
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(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 48

RE: Hard Limits - 4/21/2009 5:03:50 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

Your appology is accepted. In differentiating between two opposite poles of a spectrum I am not going to set out where other people are on all the points inbetween. They can do that for themselves.

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 4/21/2009 5:05:40 AM >

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 49

RE: Hard Limits - 4/21/2009 6:19:09 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

But you don't need to deliberately say that anyone who isn't exactly what you are looking for is a player, not submissive, etc. You have every right to your preferences. My own preferences go for people who are not pejorative about everything they don't do.

You don't make yourself bigger by making others smaller.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 50

RE: Hard Limits - 4/21/2009 6:47:54 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

I didn't that was what you read into it. Which isn't MY problem.

It is called TAKING offence for a reason... TAKING is an active role, you choose to be offended.
In this case even if you choose to identify with the label you choose to ignore the fact that likely you and I have different definitions for the word Brat... as I've stated on these boards many times I enjoy feisty but have no time for bratty willful disobedience. Same with playbunny, given you identify as submissive then you aren't ONLY about getting your play itch scratched are you which is MY definition of a playbunny.

But no, you choose instead to be offended because you WANT to be offended... which I couldn't care less about! Bratty playbunny by MY definitions is the polar opposite of a slave worth Owning. If I state the polar opposites of black and white is it offencive to all the myriad shades of grey? Only if they WANT to TAKE offence.

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 4/21/2009 7:05:36 AM >

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 51

RE: Hard Limits - 4/21/2009 5:39:27 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz

I say you are absolutely correct - except I'd disagree with one part. Many will argue the one part I disagree with and everyone is entitled their opinion.

In my opinion, a slave's limits are set by their owner's and I think it is wise for a slave to learn of their potential owner's morals and desires ahead of time.

I think a submissive is one who has limits of their own that their Dominant should at all times respect.

While you may define slave differently than I, that is perfectly fine. The only thing you need really worry about is the definition your potential owner/dominant has for that word. Hopefully, the two of you agree on that definition. If not, there will likely be a lot of communication issues down the line.

Good luck.

I always find it interesting how everyone has such widely varying opinions on definitions of what each "title" means. Yours makes more sense than most. I think, however, that the problems arise when a "slave" does take the time to get all that information up front (which everyone on all sides should do in my opinion), but then one day "master" develops a desire for something that is completely out of the realm of what had been previously discussed. People grow and change over time, there is not necessarily anything wrong with that. I do believe though that when all the "proper" precautions and steps have been taken to make sure the two have a "meeting of the minds" and then those unexpected changes come, no one should feel that they must suddenly comply with something that offends them morally or ethically, or they feel is physically or mentally harmful to them when at the start it was something that was not "on the table" to begin with.

(in reply to Domin8tingUrDrmz)

Post #: 52

RE: Hard Limits - 4/21/2009 5:53:59 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Refusal has nothing to do with lack of trust, loyalty, or devotion to the relationship/partner. It has to do with being true to yourself.

quote:

Just my thoughts on it though.

Your thoughts are beautifully stated, IrishMist!
You have described my feelings on the topic in a way I have never managed.

Well said, and thanks!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 53

RE: Hard Limits - 4/23/2009 10:12:13 PM

subinchico

Posts: 119
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline

So if he said "kill that person" or "cut yourself" or "rob that bank/person" would you? Those are limits to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zechriel

Good evening!
i agree with most everything here..and disagree as well. Mine is a situation that I hope no one finds themselves in but yet some probably will. I love my Daddy-Daddy for a whole year. Sure I was bratty but hey, I was still spoiled rotten. he took care of my kids, took interest in me, said he loved me..the whole thing. Then one day it falls apart. he pushes me away saying he tried but he 's just a "Selfish bastard that needs his space at times". I can see he was making himself the bad guy so I would walk but I begged for 2 days and he hits me with my own words-"I would do anything for you." Put up or shut Z..I am putting up.

I am now a no limits slave, even my hard limits which I thought were not included -in my mind-when I said that-he does. The only thing I can do now i pray and trust that he does not push me on them. To walk away is not conceivable... I made a promise and grew to love him, maybe I'm old fashioned ::shrugs:: So I go shuffle along day to day,and maybe the confusion of what changed so drastically will make itself clear, maybe Master will learn the difference between strict and mean-cause right now he says he's going to be stricter but instead he is acting meaner! And maybe he will remember that in finding himself during this time, he will learn to trust I love him. cause as he said, "No one like me deserves to be loved." But I do..so I wait. I can only trust that in giving him everything, he will use his heart and mind not to use everything, maybe he just wants complete trust? Time will tell but that is my story...Good luck.
Love,
Zechriel

_____________________________

I Enjoy being under the shoes of beautiful, powerful females!!

(in reply to Zechriel)

Post #: 54

RE: Hard Limits - 4/24/2009 3:39:38 AM

Zechriel

Posts: 308
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline

Good morning!
I have to trust that he will NOT say that. I cannot go into "what if's?" People drive themselves mad-insane with the "what if?" game. That game is endless and pointless. Maybe my world is different, more likely it is...as an occultist I already hold a different set of values than most. Good to know you have limits, hang onto them. I only stated my story so that others can get different perspectives of how the dynamic(s) can be changed over night and that not all situations are black and white. But if black and white simplicity is what one needs to live their life...so be it. I dwell and live in grays. Good luck.
Love,
Zechriel

< Message edited by Zechriel -- 4/24/2009 3:41:18 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to subinchico)

Post #: 55

RE: Hard Limits - 4/24/2009 5:01:15 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

So if he said "kill that person" or "cut yourself" or "rob that bank/person" would you? Those are limits to me.

Why is it that some people feel the need to put down a person who says that have no limits when it comes to their relationship?

Just because a person claims 'no limits' does not mean that they are an idiot.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to subinchico)

Post #: 56

RE: Hard Limits - 4/24/2009 5:08:55 AM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

So if he said "kill that person" or "cut yourself" or "rob that bank/person" would you? Those are limits to me.

Why is it that some people feel the need to put down a person who says that have no limits when it comes to their relationship?

Just because a person claims 'no limits' does not mean that they are an idiot.

And who the heck would be with someone who wanted them to go out and kill??
That is just absurd and would be a huge mismatch in regards to compatibility.

_____________________________

~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 57

RE: Hard Limits - 4/24/2009 6:25:24 AM

MasterinSEAL

Posts: 1
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline

As to not confuse; this is MasterinSeal's property, slave april typing...

No Dominant or Owner will require from a slave, switch, submissive or play partner something that is as ludicrous as murder, robbery, gnawing off a limb or what have you. Those actions are not limits and never should be even considered when speaking of limits. If you feel these actions are a real desire from your partner then it is not D/s. M/s or anything of the like. Yeesh!

Master and i have no set limits and have no need. We speak about what scares me, what i think i cannot come out of emotionally "good" and what may or may not happen anyway. Put simply, i am His property and He will take the time and make the effort to not only make sure my head is in the right place for something that is truly hard for me to do but be there after to help me sort through it. He may even have to help put me back together. In our relationship, this is His role. Do with me, or have me do what He wills then take responsibility of it. my job is to follow His lead and trust that He will follow through and help set anything back to rights.

Our kink and relationship interests match well naturally and that is one of the reasons i am owned. My personal boundaries have been blown apart so many times it's rather silly now to even think there is something i do not want to do for or with Him. This thought process did not happen overnight and took years to build and He took the time to build it. i think too many new partners take things too fast and do not put in the work to be able to go play in the dark together.

Transparency from the bottom (no matter what title you give yourself) is key to helping the Dominant take you places and do things you are scared of. We, on the bottom must be an active participant in surrender. Simply doing something because it is wanted without your totally embracing it can cause you many troubles. i know every person on the bottom is wired differently but knowing why you are on the bottom helps you know how much you want to surrender. Honestly about the level of surrender you want will help keep you out of deep water in the first place.

We can spend a lot of time researching, looking at and test driving a new car. This helps us decide if it is the right fit. If you do not spend this time getting to know what you want and need from it then you might end up with a minivan when you really wanted a two seater. It is our job as bottoms to find that right fit. We only have one body and one psyche to offer so treat yourself well and take your part of the responsibility when everything goes off track.

i would like to add that i do have two safewords or something like them. One is a gesture for me to use when we are around other people and i need His immediate attention for whatever reason. i simply put my hands together in a prayer position. Like little ones do for bedtime prayers. When He sees this gesture He knows that i need Him to excuse Himself from whomever or whatever and see to me right away. The other is also a hand gesture for when i am gagged, bound, blindfolded and cannot communicate otherwise. i am told to simply give Him the finger/flip Him off. This gesture is for when something is physically wrong that He has not already picked up on and is notable enough to interrupt what is happening. If my hands are in mitts, tied up or out of view i am still in the most capable hands i can possibly be in and have the utmost faith in Him and His knowledge of my general body language.

Everyone will not agree with me and that is perfectly okay. Us being different is mainly what makes finding the right "fit" so amazing. After reading this thread and writing all my dribble i want to go ask Master to play in the dark. Now my task for the day will be to focus not on wanting to play in the dark but what He needs of me. This challenge is yummy too.

"if i let go, i will grow"

Master Axel's property, slave april

"May the words of my mouth, the meditations of my heart and the physical actions of my body be pleasing to Him in all ways"

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 58

RE: Hard Limits - 4/24/2009 9:47:15 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

There are too many examples of people killing and robbing together to make a blanket statement that no master would ask that. Just because people give themselves a title and like their sex rough doesn't mean they're good people.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to MasterinSEAL)

Post #: 59

RE: Hard Limits - 4/24/2009 11:53:02 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

There are too many examples of people killing and robbing together to make a blanket statement that no master would ask that. Just because people give themselves a title and like their sex rough doesn't mean they're good people.

I don't dispute that yes, people do rob and kill for 'others'.
However, just because a person states that they have no limits and are willing do anything for their partner, does not automatically mean that they are stupid enough to go the illegal route.
I get so sick of hearing that fucking argument anytime someone pops up and says that they have no limits. To me it says that you are stating that the person is an obvious idiot who can't tell right from wrong.
Personally, I am more inlcined to think a person an idiot if they have to bring up an issue that is obviously wrong ( murder, robbery, etc ).

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 60

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