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RE: What about me? - 5/10/2009 8:14:24 PM   
NeedAKinkyFriend


Posts: 2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Status: offline 		As the OP, reading all of the back-and-forth between all of you who are so much more experienced than I has been very enlightening for me. I would like to respond to Ms. ShaktiSama, who said "However, I do believe that people who want nothing but kinky sex in a bedroom, who want NO bdsm power dynamics in the relationship outside the bedroom, and who do not require heavier masochism and sadism in their sexplay? Do NOT need to confine themselves to this community in the search for partners--and in fact might be much wiser not to. Nor am I the only person to say so in this thread."

Ms. Shakti, I think you do a disservice to those of us who aren't lifestylers, and believe that your use of the term "kinky sex" is a pejorative in this context, and really marginalizes the genuine emotional depth I'm seeking. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not looking for purely recreational bdsm, or submission outside of a relationship. My submission, my need for someone to worship and serve, however linked to my sexuality it might be, is to me a special and beautiful expression of love and devotion. It's the deepest way I would like to express my love for my partner. This isn't "play" for me. I'm trying to find someone who understands, reciprocates, and approves. There aren't many vanilla women who would understand how beautiful humiliation can be, for example, or how much love can be expressed with a flogging or a face slapping, much less something like anal play, showers, CBT, etc. Perhaps my problem is that I'm too kinky for a vanilla, too submissive for a switch or someone who wants to play kinky sex games as part of a varied sex life, and not lifestyle enough for the "serious players". I also don't believe that I'm alone in the way I feel. My internet wanderings have convinced me that serious women who want a lasting relationship tend to advertise in one of two places. Either they are vanilla and post to the vanilla sites like Match, or they are kinky, and post to CM, She Makes The Rules, Fetlife, or possibly FemmeDommeSociety (although that one seems mostly less than genuine).

I believe that I would have to be outfront about my sexuality with any woman I might be attracted to, and NOT after we both got serious. The odds that I would meet, date, find mutual attraction with, and get serious enough to discuss this with a vanilla Match.com woman who WOULDN'T flee immediately after I made my kinky confession is probably something like the probability of me being drafted by the Raiders next year (and I'm a 52 year old college professor). How many places are there for those like myself? I think CM is probably my best hope, yet I also feel that those of us who are not lifestylers are thought of as less sincere, more "recreational" players, and I strongly disagree with that characterization.

I'm a professional musician, and I've played some incredible music with amazing musicians who were amateurs. I may have been more skilled or knowledgeable, and I'd certainly put in more time on the instrument, but even though they all had successful careers in other fields, these people brought some real passion, talent and commitment to every gig, and they were always treated as brothers and sisters in arms. That's all I was saying: that it felt like someone like me didn't really have a place on CM and that we were thought of as something less than the genuine article.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 1:14:20 AM   
beeble


Posts: 799
Joined: 5/25/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

beeble wrote: You seem to be saying that, essentially, it ain't BDSM unless it involved 27/4 D/s or heavy sadomasochism.  Why so narrow?

ShaktiSama wrote: *shrug*  You can call bdsm and its attendant community "narrow" if you like.

It's your definition of BDSM that I'm calling narrow.  It doesn't, for example, appear to include any of the bondage and discipline component, if done on its own.

quote:

However, I do believe that people who want nothing but kinky sex in a bedroom, who want NO bdsm power dynamics in the relationship outside the bedroom, and who do not require heavier masochism and sadism in their sexplay?  Do NOT need to confine themselves to this community in the search for partners--and in fact might be much wiser not to.

But you don't know that they're confining themselves to looking here -- you just know that they have looked here.  Yes, looking in other places is a good idea, especially if you don't want a heavily BDSM-based relationship.  However, when you start saying that people who only want samosas should go to the cheap samosa stall on the market and leave the expensive Indian restaurants alone, that sounds an awful lot like saying that they're not worthy to come here and that's what I was calling obnoxious and elitist.

quote:

I'm not sure why I'm being called "elitist" because I reject a definition of  "vanilla" which I find to be false, misleading, and misrepresentative of 99% of the people I have met who were not specifically into bdsm, but whatever.

No.  I'm calling you elitist because you appear to be saying that anyone who doesn't conform to your very narrow definition of what BDSM is should clear off back to their non-BDSM communities.

I also think that your sample of `vanilla' people has a major selection bias: a person who is willing to be a model for erotic or sexual photography is likely to be rather open-minded, sexually, and therefore more likely to be interested in (or, at least, open to) BDSM-type activities

beeble.


_____________________________

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(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 5:16:33 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beeble
It's your definition of BDSM that I'm calling narrow.  It doesn't, for example, appear to include any of the bondage and discipline component, if done on its own.


If done on its own, bondage and light discipline goes on in plenty of vanilla households and bedrooms.  I'm afraid that calling it bdsm doesn't make it so, sociologically speaking.  The problem with the definition that you are running into is that you and some others want to use "bdsm" as a descriptor for random activities that could be performed by anyone.  Whereas my argument is based on what the majority of people who identify themselves with bdsm are doing/wanting to do.

So far as activities go?  This community can claim sole ownership of many other sexual acts which were considered "risque" 150 years ago as well, if we like.  But I assure you that the vanilla world has also discovered oral and anal sex, for example, and positions other than missionary.  Might be time to update the definitions somewhat.  There is plenty of spanking and there are plenty of blindfolds and handcuffs in the bedrooms of vanilla couples. 

quote:

However, when you start saying that people who only want samosas should go to the cheap samosa stall on the market and leave the expensive Indian restaurants alone, that sounds an awful lot like saying that they're not worthy to come here and that's what I was calling obnoxious and elitist.


You're assuming an awful lot--for example, that I think there is something wrong with cheap samosas from the stall, or something superior or "elite" about sitting down in a hoity-toity restaurant to pay a lot of money to be served a lot of food that you do not like and do not want.

You can call me whatever names you like, and hang a halo on your name-calling all you like.  Don't really care.  The whole point is moot, because the OP has already returned to clarify his post and made it clear that he's not looking for "light" bdsm, he's looking for the heavier play that is not available in the wider world.  This makes his situation quite a bit worse, in my opinion, but I'll address those remarks to him, not to you.

quote:

I also think that your sample of `vanilla' people has a major selection bias: a person who is willing to be a model for erotic or sexual photography is likely to be rather open-minded, sexually, and therefore more likely to be interested in (or, at least, open to) BDSM-type activities.


I think that the "bias" of the selection is not just that people are willing to model per se, but that people are willing to explore and prioritize their sexuality in the first place.  In this regard, Collarme and other bdsm web sites have had absolutely no advantage over other sites where people write up a profile looking for sex and sexual relationships, and because those sites have far larger populations (or used to, before they started charging outrageous membership fees), they actually produced far more people who are both willing and able to model for me.

Perhaps there is a sample bias with people who have exhibitionist tendencies versus other tendencies, but I used the Internet to explore sex and sexual fantasies for quite some time before I decided to express my interest in the erotic in the form of erotic photography.  I ran into plenty of kinky "vanilla" people before I started photographing anyone.  And even when I was listed only as a photographer, as on Collarme, the majority of people who approached me through my profile did not want to model--they wanted some kind of personal sexual experience or relationship with me.  As such their kinky desires were very much an issue.




< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 5/11/2009 5:51:23 AM >

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to beeble)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 5:42:24 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedAKinkyFriend
Perhaps my problem is that I'm too kinky for a vanilla, too submissive for a switch or someone who wants to play kinky sex games as part of a varied sex life, and not lifestyle enough for the "serious players".


That may well be. 

quote:

 How many places are there for those like myself? I think CM is probably my best hope, yet I also feel that those of us who are not lifestylers are thought of as less sincere, more "recreational" players, and I strongly disagree with that characterization.


*shrug*  Sincerity is not the issue.  I believe you are terribly sincere in wanting exactly what you want and nothing else.  And what you implied you were looking for in your OP was basically vanilla power dynamics in the relationship.  Default vanilla relationship dynamics in the modern world = low-grade male-dominant, female-submissive.

What you're looking for, whether you recognize it or not, IS a lifestyle.  It's just a contradictory and inconsistent lifestyle, which may involve a major paradox for the woman who would take it upon herself to make your dream come true.  The problem arises when on top of your very vanilla relationship dynamic, you want a woman with the genuine will to dominate who provides relatively hard-core bdsm in the bedroom.  IN MY OPINION and IN MY EXPERIENCE, (please take these for the caveats that they are), there are not a lot of dominant women who identify themselves as such who are looking for this.

The personality traits that lead to the kind of sexual dominance and aggression you're looking for very seldom come without a price--in men OR women.  Dominant personalities are seldom compartmentalized to be dominant only in the bedroom.  The urge to lead and command does not magically go away when you open the bedroom door, for most people.  In a healthy human being, it is integrated with other personality traits and expresses itself in daily life in a lot of ways.  Female submissives seem to accept and affirm this in their dominant men; I see a lot more male submissives having a lot of trouble with it in dominant women, which strikes me as a shame.

Anyway, I am sorry you feel belittled or persecuted.  I think the domme you're looking for will be a rare bird at best, for a number of reasons, but I wish you the best of luck in finding a woman who is subby in the streets and dom in the sheets.  Most of the women I have met in my life who actually wanted or were able to enjoy sex that incorporates real pain, humiliation, etc., were not at all interested in settling for traditional female subservience to an "alpha male" once they are done fulfilling his submissive sexual/emotional needs in the bedroom.  If you can find someone here who feels differently, more power to you; compatibility and happiness are their own rewards.

quote:

That's all I was saying: that it felt like someone like me didn't really have a place on CM and that we were thought of as something less than the genuine article.


*shrug*  The "genuine article" around here is seldom defined in terms that are not based on personal experience or personal desires.  I am no different in this respect than any other poster.  I am sorry to confirm your suspicion that "bedroom-only" submission is not desirable or respected equally to a broader-based submission within the relationship, but in my case--it isn't.  As a domme, I am not looking for some amazing new way to be submissive to a man, and relationships like the one you're looking for seem like the ultimate in female submission to me--a wonderful opportunity to service a man in the bedroom and deny your dominant nature at all other times and in all other places to "keep up appearances" and appease his need for control in all other walks of life.

Regardless, don't be discouraged--as you can see, plenty of people here are willing to say that I'm dead wrong (whether their own relationships and encounters affirm my views are another story, of course).  There is one point that stands heavily in your favor, though:  this is all very personal and anecdotal so far.  So far as I know, there has been no scientific study of bdsm and its practitioners, which would really iron out the real numbers on how many men and women there are, what they are looking for, what their relationship dynamics are, etc..

Realistically, for all we know, you ARE the poster child for "real" bdsm!  And the relationship dynamic you're looking for could be the dominant mode for female dominance.  Elise Sutton and her devotees certainly seem to be on your side.  I wonder if there is a website for Sutton-ite dommes and submissives? 

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 5/11/2009 5:44:43 AM >

_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to NeedAKinkyFriend)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 7:49:55 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Since it seems the OP is still listening, I'll give it a go.

From reading the original and the follow up, the best definition that I can give you is either bedroom submissive or bedroom bottom.  I'm not quite clear if you are hoping for an actual power dynamic even in the bedroom, so I'll leave you to determine which term is more appropriate.

Does this leave you out of BDSM?  In My opinion, no.  However, it can be rather difficult to find what you would be looking for (someone who would amount to a bedroom top) among those who don't confine their dynamics to the bedroom only.  While not impossible to find, I do think it will prove challenging for you.

I completely understand why you are having feelings of appearing something of 'less than' within the community.  I'm not saying this to put you down in any way, but I'm going to express it the same way as I do to other bottoms who pose something of the same question.  For many of us, we don't want to limit ourselves to expressing Dominance to the bedroom only and are more likely to select partners who are willing to be the whole package, rather than offer us that in certain settings.  While you are looking for an expression of yourself on a part time basis, many of us feel that we just are who we are on a full time basis.  It is very much the same as those who do consider themselves to be bottoms.  Many of us don't want to settle for a bottom when we could possibly have a submissive who not only bottoms, but provides service as well.  I'm absolutely willing to admit that I'm more the whole package type and I tend to think many of the forum regulars here are the same.

Still, I'm going to welcome you to CM and wish you the best of luck.  Perhaps you'll still enjoy some of the discussions and find use for them within your version of BDSM.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 7:59:55 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedAKinkyFriend
There aren't many vanilla women who would understand how beautiful humiliation can be, for example, or how much love can be expressed with a flogging or a face slapping, much less something like anal play, showers, CBT, etc. Perhaps my problem is that I'm too kinky for a vanilla, too submissive for a switch or someone who wants to play kinky sex games as part of a varied sex life, and not lifestyle enough for the "serious players".
...
I think CM is probably my best hope, yet I also feel that those of us who are not lifestylers are thought of as less sincere, more "recreational" players, and I strongly disagree with that characterization.


Why on earth would you be automatically "too submissive" for a switch? Some switches are Dominant, some are submissive, and some are top/bottom switches who aren't into D/s, so it depends on the individual person. I don't happen to be a match for you, for geographical and chronological reasons, and I'm not drawn to humiliation (but that's the case for a lot of Dommes as well). Your screen name would make me rule you out automatically, as I'd assume that you are looking for an ongoing casual playpartner or friends with benefits situation, rather than a relationship.

I agree that people who aren't into D/s, or who are "bedroom only," are frequently denigrated as being "vanilla" in the forums here, or otherwise put down for not being serious enough/extreme enough/whatever.

ShaktiSama, I've been in a few egalitarian kinky relationships before, as a Top, a bottom, or as a switch. In each of them, we didn't have a formal D/s dynamic, and weren't drawn to the 24/7 model. In all of them, I was leaning slightly Dominant - I was very much in charge in the bedroom, and they asked my opinion, were respectful, etc. in the rest of our time together. It didn't seem to me to be a female-submissive situation at all (and I *have* been in one of those, in my last relationship, so I'm very much aware of the difference).

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 5/11/2009 8:00:23 AM >

(in reply to NeedAKinkyFriend)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 8:26:10 AM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

ShaktiSama, I've been in a few egalitarian kinky relationships before, as a Top, a bottom, or as a switch. In each of them, we didn't have a formal D/s dynamic, and weren't drawn to the 24/7 model.


Then there is hope for the OP after all. 

Just as an aside, I consider any true egalitarianism in a relationship between a man and woman to be already a departure from the vanilla norm.  The ideal of egalitarianism is bandied about quite a lot in the vanilla world, but I've always found that the reality of equality was sorely lacking.  I don't find vanilla relationships to be egalitarian--I find them to be male dominant.  And yes, this is the case regardless of whether the guy claims to be enlightened, says he will do "his share" of the housework, whether he claims that he wants his partner to be an "equal", etc.

For example with housework:  in many cases the man doesn't express his dominance in a relationship by sitting around the house doing nothing.  Instead he expresses it by deciding what "his job" is, where housework is concerned, and relegating the rest of the housework (usually the bulk of the dirtiest and most time-consuming jobs) to the woman.  If she asks him to do something he doesn't want to do, he will exert control by being aggressively incompetent--if she wants the job done properly, she learns to do it herself.

Similarly, where work is concerned:  a vanilla man often won't express his dominance by refusing to let the woman work outside the home or pursue a career of some kind.  Instead his dominance is expressed in the way his work and career receive greater priority than hers, especially if sacrifices have to be made for someone to put in extra time and get ahead.  If someone needs to leave work or give up overtime to pick up the kids, to do the shopping, pick up the dry-cleaning, take the dog to the vet etc, it'll be the woman 90% of the time in a vanilla dynamic.  The same general rule will apply to her social life, her family obligations, etc.. 

When the OP used the word "alpha male" in his first post, it definitely took me out of any truly "egalitarian" mindset for the relationship he was looking for, and definitely made me think more of standard vanilla male-D.  "Alpha male" always seems to be a code word for "male dominance", regardless of whether the guy wants to do any spanking.




_____________________________

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 8:51:33 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Yeah, I wouldn't be a good match for the OP, but would consider someone who wanted a D/s in the bedroom dynamic, or bottoming only, if he was local, interesting, and within the age range I seek.

I figure the "alpha male" part is just emphasising that they aren't one of those "I'm a worm! I don't deserve you" kind of guys. Even if someone is submissive, I like them to be confident in social situations enough that I don't have to babysit them the whole time, and to offer me their strength for me to control/in my service. I don't seek out guys who identify as "alpha," specifically, but I would discuss what it means to them, and the shape of the relationship they desire. Lots of female submissives and slaves use that term as well, and they generally seem to mean by it "I'm able to be in charge at work, if needed, and I don't want a poly relationship, or at least, I need to be the most important one." It *could* have a very different connotation for men, of course, I just don't have any specifically negative experience with the term.

We didn't use the actual word "egalitarian" in the relationships I'm referring to, I just meant that there was no formal D/s dynamic. I didn't emotionally connect with them in the specific way I need for a D/s relationship, on either side of the whip. In general, they catered to anything I wanted, were perfectly willing to do dishes, cook, fix minor things on my car, run errands, etc., but I didn't frequently ask them to. I only had a live-in relationship with one of them, so ongoing service wasn't usually an issue. When I did ask them to do something for me, they did it promptly and competently, without any argument. However, it wasn't service that they owed to me, it was expressed more as a request/favour, and I made sure they knew I wasn't taking them for granted. I expect any man I date, regardless of D/s and BDSM orientation, to be considerate, caring, etc. On the flip side, I was willing to do stuff for them, if they asked, as well.

They were my boyfriends (umm serially, not all at the same time), and we incorporated S/M and bondage into our sex lives. A couple of them discovered very quickly that they were drawn to topping me, and didn't inherently enjoy bottoming, but they still expressed that they were willing to do it if I wanted to. They enjoyed *me* being turned on, even if the physical sensation didn't do anything for them. Occasionally, if I was in the mood to, we did incorporate that a bit, but it wasn't coming for a space of submission, but "I'm tough, I can take it if you need me to or just want me to."

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 5/11/2009 9:08:38 AM >

(in reply to ShaktiSama)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 9:39:39 AM   
MissEnchanted


Posts: 510
Status: offline 		Need a Kinky friend:
quote:

I'm trying to find someone who understands, reciprocates, and approves. There aren't many vanilla women who would understand how beautiful humiliation can be, for example, or how much love can be expressed with a flogging or a face slapping, much less something like anal play, showers, CBT, etc. Perhaps my problem is that I'm too kinky for a vanilla,


First: the screename you picked to post here suggests kinky friend, not a love match as a sub in the bedroom, so this name doesn't actually fit what you are looking for and will push away the very one you seek, imo.

I know a beautiful man who fell in love with a woman and they both thought they might just be a little kinky. She decided to go Pro for the money, then they both found out how deeply kinky they really are and took it to D/s heights they never had imagined for 5 lovely years. He now loves the whip and many, many other submissive things as her sub than he ever thought he would. He learned in that relationship that submitting to his love was a glorious exploration and affirmation of who he really is and how much it expanded their love for one-another, Submissive to HER all the way down to his toes. He is alpha in his work life, and does the laundry, cooks, runs errands, etc. at home. he also looks awesome in stockings! 

You are new and may find when you are hooked up with someone you love and respect for all kinds of vanilla reasons that you and She will move into places that seemed way beyond your ken or interest level. you may find you love things that you once found despicable, disgusting, or terribly scary!

My suggestions?

First find that good connection, and then be open to where it goes. change your screename to reflect who you are and what you really seek. Get out to some munches or events where you can meet BDSM people and meet them relatively soon if you feel that chemistry when communicating with them stimulates your mind and makes you feel good inside. make some friends as they will know someone who knows someone etc.

LadyConstanze:
"I know is a couple, he is a masochist and she is very vanilla, she's OK with him getting the pain he craves but can't bring herself to do it, because it goes against the grain, they visit a pro domme together, she holds and stimulates him while he's getting tortured and for them it is a bonding experience, it might be a rather unconventional relationship but I think it's beautiful to see how people who love each other are doing what they can to make each other happy. He worships the ground his wife walks on"

I know a couple just like this and they are subs of mine! 
I am not a pro and we have a lot of fun together. He doesn't need any stimulation before hand though....although she loves to do some of this for him before a pain'scene.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To everyone else who's posting:

Thanks so much for all the laughs. Like-minded people and laughing are a balm to my soul.



ps: thinking of sub-carpet, and that taxi. Both work for me!





(in reply to NeedAKinkyFriend)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 10:07:39 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissEnchanted


I know a couple just like this and they are subs of mine! 
I am not a pro and we have a lot of fun together. He doesn't need any stimulation before hand though....although she loves to do some of this for him before a pain'scene.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To everyone else who's posting:

Thanks so much for all the laughs. Like-minded people and laughing are a balm to my soul.



ps: thinking of sub-carpet, and that taxi. Both work for me!





LOL, well if you would be the pro domme, I would know you as I spent ages going around with her to interview dommes, she felt it was important for her that she likes and trusts the woman, at the same time she feels more relaxed because it is a pro domme. Both fairly understandable. I was actually quite funny, both of them good friends who knew a bit about my kinky side, well, they helped me moving and the fact that I had more crops and whips than your average tack store and only go riding occasionally might have given it away (always nice if a box breaks while loading or unloading it, and you CAN bet on it that it will be one of the boxes that has embarrassing stuff in it, I'm quite happy that it wasn't one of the other boxes with more incriminating stuff).

I'm quite touched about what a loving relationship they have, though recently she asked me if I would go corset shopping with her, as she wants to go to fetish parties....

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to MissEnchanted)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 1:01:30 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissEnchanted

I know a beautiful man who fell in love with a woman and they both thought they might just be a little kinky. She decided to go Pro for the money, then they both found out how deeply kinky they really are and took it to D/s heights they never had imagined for 5 lovely years. He now loves the whip and many, many other submissive things as her sub than he ever thought he would. He learned in that relationship that submitting to his love was a glorious exploration and affirmation of who he really is and how much it expanded their love for one-another, Submissive to HER all the way down to his toes. He is alpha in his work life, and does the laundry, cooks, runs errands, etc. at home. he also looks awesome in stockings! 


That, to me, is absolutely plausible.  I'd always been certain about 'her being dominant in bedroom' (always, and in all ways) but somewhat vague about anything beyond that.  Yet one very recent experience has taught me that submission will extend a fair bit beyond the bedroom door and feel entirely 'natural' for me.  By 'natural' I mean: without a question in myself (roughly, 'do this to make her life easier, not to impress her').   In all: I do think that if we must have anything approaching an 'ideology' of BDSM - then, at the very least, it just has to be an elastic sort of ideology.

Second point: It's clear that a some women have a very jaded opinion of 'vanilla lifestyle'.  That lots of men profess to holding to the principle of 'equality between the sexes' - while at the same time not practising it - is inarguable.  The facts - the statistics - regularly bear this out.  Yet there is the 'ecological fallacy' to consider.  This fallacy has it, for example, that "most men are like this, so this particular example of a man will be like this, also". 

The surprising exceptions pop up.  I don't like cars and don't drive one.  To me, they're too big for what they do and they're ugly and loud.  First, they empty your wallet then they make you fat through lack of exercise.  My mother - an old-time feminist and socialist - was disgusted that a girlfriend was driving me everywhere and told me that I should be ashamed of myself.  My father - a very right-wing ex-policeman, has always been heartily-approving.  He hates cars too and has never bought a new one in his life.  (He'd also seen the results of road traffic accidents in his career - far worse sights then anything that a policeman might see - Jack the Ripper-style crimes absolutely included.)

My ex, a vanilla, drove me around.  I fixed her car - true - because I've got a mechanical sort of brain whereas my ex was entirely unhampered in that way.  (She thought a Fiat 128 was so called because it had a 128 cc engine, she was that bad.)  But, also, I did all her sewing because I liked it and love the way sewing machines work.  (Singer was an unsung genius, IMO.)   And I did most of the cleaning because I'd had vast experience as a cleaner while studying.  I could do it quickly and efficiently.

All this rambling boils down to: People can be eccentric.  The ecological fallacy really is a fallacy - it's not just some abstract, philosophical piffle that one should ignore.  It describes a real and prevalent psychological mistake.  Submissive males are odd to start with.  It's plausible to assume that they might just be eccentric - and perfectly happily so - in ways other than just their 'bedroom inclinations'. 

I bet I'm not the only one.  England doesn't hold the monopoly on eccentric males, either.  Actually, though it grinds to say it, many of the more modern-day English "eccentricities" were invented in the USA.  California being the leading state, I'd suggest.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/11/2009 1:02:19 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 1:17:29 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		Peon, since I just spent an hour cleaning parts of the garage (need a break now and will tackle the rest later, a bit every day, expect a clean garage in a year or so) I can't get over the cleaning bit, I dunno why all of a sudden I am salivating and thinking about inviting you over... Would you like to see my garage? j/k

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 1:46:10 PM   
ShaktiSama


Posts: 1674
Joined: 8/13/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite
I figure the "alpha male" part is just emphasising that they aren't one of those "I'm a worm! I don't deserve you" kind of guys.


Yep, you could be right. I've encountered quite a number of men in the 35-60 age group who had the "submissive + sexist" combo.  They always seemed to start their pitch with the "I'm a vanilla/alpha male kinda guy in everyday life" and end by trying to edit my dominance into a sex toy, while denying me any any control or power in the rest of the relationship.  Perhaps this has made me oversensitive to certain words and phrases, or certain relationship-style requests.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 3:26:32 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Peon, since I just spent an hour cleaning parts of the garage (need a break now and will tackle the rest later, a bit every day, expect a clean garage in a year or so) I can't get over the cleaning bit, I dunno why all of a sudden I am salivating and thinking about inviting you over... Would you like to see my garage? j/k


I must admit, I wince a little at the Holiest-of-All-Holies being referred to as a "garage", Lady C, despite having lived with Germans in the past and considering myself well-used to Germans' derision for the overly-delicate way peoples of lesser nations talk about such matters.  However: yes, thank you for your invitation to inspect your garage and I'll be glad to bring my power-hose.

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: What about me? - 5/11/2009 3:37:13 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Peon, since I just spent an hour cleaning parts of the garage (need a break now and will tackle the rest later, a bit every day, expect a clean garage in a year or so) I can't get over the cleaning bit, I dunno why all of a sudden I am salivating and thinking about inviting you over... Would you like to see my garage? j/k


I must admit, I wince a little at the Holiest-of-All-Holies being referred to as a "garage", Lady C, despite having lived with Germans in the past and considering myself well-used to Germans' derision for the overly-delicate way peoples of lesser nations talk about such matters.  However: yes, thank you for your invitation to inspect your garage and I'll be glad to bring my power-hose.


Hey you! I still will possibly need a blood transfusion to have German blood, but heck, maybe I became assimilated by living in the country for too long, some Germans do in fact remind me of the Borg (one professor I had at uni in particular).

Actually, the garage was intended to park a car in by the architect, but when I moved in it seemed like such a good room to store boxes and such, so no hosing down of things, you might damage some leather and crops...

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There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: What about me? - 5/14/2009 12:31:35 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Which comedian has a line about garages? Something to the effect of they're filled with worthless junk while a $30,000 car has to stay out in the elements.

Beyond that, the op sounds like a bedroom sub to me and I imagine if he approached people saying just that, he wouldnt get harassed. Although he probably would get turned down a lot. Moreover for someone with no experience, I heartily endorse starting just this way as opposed to claiming you can be a 24/7, no limits slave.

A lot better to go in expecting reality and be happily surprised that if the relationship was sufficiently fulfilling and the dominant proved sufficiently trustworthy, his submission would grow instead of expecting him to handle everything under the sun whether or not he had even heard of it before and have the relationship end abruptly with recriminations on both parts.

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RE: What about me? - 5/14/2009 2:10:12 PM   
slavekal


Posts: 1486
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline 		Of course you can do it.  In fact, I have seen many profiles from ladies who are asking for just the type of man you say that you are.  I think your chances are quite good.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: What about me? - 5/14/2009 8:24:26 PM   
undergroundsea


Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedAKinkyFriend
I've been aware of submissive thoughts since I was a child, even before I knew what sex was.

Here's the rub: my feelings of submissiveness are pretty much totally tied into my sexuality and how I would ideally like to express it.

I enjoy sharing a life with a woman I love, including doing my share of all of the cooking, cleaning, dog walking, etc., but I'm not looking for 24/7 D/s. Based on my own feelings and needs, I don't wish to build a relationship totally or even mostly based on BDSM, and outside of the bedroom I'm a pretty normal, alpha male sort of guy with a life, friends, a responsible and interesting job, etc.

I've always felt that a "vanilla in the streets, submissive in the sheets" outlook has been looked upon negatively by most who communicate on this site. Is it possible to be genuinely submissive, but only (or almost only) in a sexual way?

It seems to me that someone with that outlook (especially a male) is generally looked down upon as a "do me" sub. I'm not looking for anyone to "do me" in any particular way, and would like to find a life partner with whom I can have a genuine relationship AND serve HER needs in the bedroom. The hope is that her need to be sexually dominant would line up with my need to be sexually submissive, and the rest of the relationship would be open to negotiation.

I know that my submissive feelings have run deep and for a long time. I know they are genuine and valid. To me, anyway. I just don't have a need to polish boots, serve tea in a maid's outfit, serve as furniture, wear a "Property of" tattoo on my ass, etc.


Various portions of text have been snipped above for sake of emphasizing portions I find significant. 

First, I think 24/7 is construed differently by different people. The best definition I have heard is that it is not necessarily on all the time (there may be times that are not too different from general social interaction) but who is who is known at all times and it can be turned on at any time. Take that as you will to see how distant or not the concept of 24/7 is for you.

With that said, I think your brand of submission is just fine.

In my opinion, how much submission one expresses falls on a spectrum. To me, someone who enjoys submission (the mental draw to an imbalance in power versus physical sensations only) only in the bedroom is still a submissive. He simply falls on a different part of the spectrum than someone who might identify as a slave, or a sub who seeks greater levels of submission. I consider each a valid preference.

I recently did a discussion about the components of a submissive's psychology in which I propose that the sum wants and behavior of a submissive result from the different components: masochism, social, spiritual, ego-related drives, and primal drive. I enjoy service and describe how these components relate with this interest.

I have a masochistic component that causes me to enjoy taking a subordinate status. Service that comes from this component comes from a wish to serve as a servant.

I have a social component that causes me to seek social relationships (which I consider a fundamental human need) and to love and be loved. Service that comes from this component comes from a wish to express appreciation via acts of service.

I have a spiritual component that brings me gratification via connection with the universe outside of me. One means to spiritual fulfillment is through service or devotion to what might be seen as bigger or significant. Service that comes from this component requires a particular chemistry and brings a meditative calm.

I have a component that is based on ego-related drives. It is this component that provides my individual expression. Service that comes from this component provides a boost to my ego based on how well I perceive myself to fare, or for however it might make me feel about myself.

Thus, my sum behavior and how I feel about a given activity is affected by how these components interact.

I can enjoy a relationship that is based on submission only: submission to a gay woman, or a high protocol position. I see such relationships to have little odds to be both long-term and exclusive. When the relationship is not both long-term and exclusive, the masochism component can prevail and needs of other components can be set aside at times of interaction within that relationship.

To my masochistic component alone, a slave dynamic carries appeal. However, in a long-term exclusive relationship, all components become important and collectively define the dynamic I envision.

I let my relationship dynamics evolve organically. However, I do not actively or specifically seek to have an M/s-like relationship where all decisions are made by the domme. Instead, I see my ideal relationship to be a romantic companionship based on BDSM. My vision of my relationship would have the couple deal with life in general collectively as do companions. In a vanilla relationship, sex generally occurs in the bedroom. It might also occur outside the bedroom, you know, when the kids are at camp or whatever ;-) But the relationship expressions extend beyond sex and the bedroom, and a healthy relationship includes various acts or gestures that remind each other of their relationship. I envision the same for a BDSM relationship except sexual expression and relationship expressions (various acts or gestures that remind each other of their relationship: kissing, hugging, flowers, slapping ;-) ) would derive strongly from BDSM. Acts of service or deference would be greater than what one might see in a vanilla companionship. And instead of a kiss on the cheek, it might be a pinch of the nipple. To quote a friend, it's like romance with spikes ;-)

If I had to choose between a relationship that fulfilled my masochistic interests only, and one that fulfilled my wish for a companion only, I would choose a companion--I consider the latter a more fundamental need. For me a good, compassionate relationship partner is a more significant criteria than a common interest in BDSM alone. Fortunately, the world is not one of dichotomies and I can seek both.

Still, this emphasis influences where I see the equilibrium of my ideal long-term relationship with respect to what balance is created by the different components of me. This perspective tells me that my social component is stronger than my masochistic component. And this perspective tells me that my road to deep submission in a companionship must go through my social component (what I am willing to do based on how I feel about a woman) rather than my masochistic component.

There are dommes and subs who hold a perspective similar to mine; they wish to have a romantic BDSM companionship of the type I describe. There are dommes and subs who wish for BDSM to have greater influence over the relationship, and how much it is led by one person. There are dommes and subs who might wish for even a smaller BDSM influence than I describe. It is not a question of right and wrong, but one of compatibility.

If you ask others for a definition of submission, you will hear what works for them. I think what matters more is what works for you, and whether you can find someone who holds a similar philosophy.

I wish you well in finding such a person.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 5/14/2009 8:35:24 PM >

(in reply to NeedAKinkyFriend)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: What about me? - 5/24/2009 2:00:37 AM   
LAgirlsub


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/16/2009
Status: offline 		Sea,
Thanks so much for your detailed and personal response. Like the OP, I've been struggling to find my way along this 'bdsm' path and I do think - again someday I'll know in reality - that for me (and that's all I can speak of) is about submission in the bedroom. I so very much appreciate how you broke this down into how you see the various dimensions or dynamics can be between two people.

To me, every day that I think in these terms, the more I see it as a part of my 'private' life that yes I want to grow and explore and have fun but in no way is this for either public consumption or dictates how I run my life/how I will be/live with a partner. I don't want some kind of restrictive power relationship and some of what I read feels that way, to me. This is my feelings, not some book that tells us how bdsm is or is not. Just my feelings at this moment in time.

When I think of my long-term relationship, there were some things she did that she was better at then I and visa versa. My 'equality' meaning my compatiablity and love and respect and all the rest matters most to me and frankly all the bdsm in the world would always be something of less importance.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: What about me? - 5/24/2009 1:33:16 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I'm very careful about clarifying what someone means by "24/7" regardless of which side of the D/s equation they are on. If I am someone's submissive or Domme, I'd always consider myself to be that, just like I'm always their girlfriend. It doesn't get turned on and off, but I'm not going to be focused on it while I'm at work, I can't control my dreams. I'm not a Denny's so, they can't expect me to play at 3 in the morning when I have to wake up at 6 for work!

(in reply to LAgirlsub)
Profile   Post #: 80
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