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RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 3:43:32 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		hi, ive just watched one of the links GF put up.  OMG!!!

the really scary part of that was when the guy was interviewed afterwards.  he said that he swore he shouted RED but noone heard him and that he felt that under the wrong conditions, ie, if you were in the wrong hands, you could quickly go out of youre mind.

i think the whole building up to it, for people who enjoy being scared shitless then it would be hot.  but when the process starts and you cant hold youre breath anymore, thats when the scene would get seriously dodgy.

you would have to be with someone who knew exactly what they were doing, i mean, really really knew what they were doing. its definitely not 'something for the weekend cos the telly is crap'

i can see how BDSM edge players might be drawn to it as an experience, but i cant imagine many wanting a repeat performance.  for me not atall.  i have no fascination for near death experiences.

(in reply to ZenDragoness)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 5:19:31 AM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant
Ummm.. people's hearts fail from the stress of it. People's lungs fill with water and the interrogators sometimes don't get it out quickly enough - then they drown. This is not about being tough. This is a technique that is classified as a really bad, and possibly lethal form of torture by everyone except Bush and Cheney.

This is not a matter of making little pontifications over about toughness or kink.

The shallow narcissism gets to be a little much.

Perhaps there are some who think being broken on a wheel is hot too. They too are called sick, deranged morons.

I am simply appalled that anyone could respond to this post with anything other than disgust.


You could have simply avoided the thread if you feel so strongly about it. I share your sentiment (that it's not something I would personally enjoy and many others would regret trying) but I don't share your desire to rule which topics can be discussed and which we should feel morally disgusted by. That is the edge to edge play i.e. some play with knives, some seem to enjoy asphyxiation, some like to stick needles through themselves. There is always risk no matter how much you control those risks there is always residual risk i.e. did nobody ever pick up a serious infection from a hospital even though that is a clinical environment supposedly? I don’t like the theme it’s in poor taste but then there are plenty of other kinks that started in bad taste, who am I to deplore any of those? Slavery etc?

Moralisers ha.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 5/13/2009 5:34:37 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 12:20:03 PM   
TickledToDeath


Posts: 126
Joined: 1/26/2008
From: New York
Status: offline 		I too love Interrogation scenes and role play too for that matter.
I also have heard much of this waterboarding and was thinking of the medieval version and did not know how the modern version was done. Interesting indeed. A cloth on the face and water poured over it so that the cloth is saturated with water? Am I understanding this correctly? Fascinating however I would not want to be on the receiving end of that interrogation technique.

(in reply to subbisherri)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 1:12:54 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

How do you simulate drowning? Just a question.


Exactly.


How do you simulate rape?  How do you simulate kidnapping?  Or any of the other stuff that many bdsmer's engage in?





Uh  here the thing it kinda important so listen up....  drowning you uh die   does that clear it up for you ????

BadOne


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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 1:25:19 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

How do you simulate drowning? Just a question.


Exactly.


How do you simulate rape?  How do you simulate kidnapping?  Or any of the other stuff that many bdsmer's engage in?





Uh  here the thing it kinda important so listen up....  drowning you uh die   does that clear it up for you ????

BadOne



Actually many ( or most ) people who experience waterboarding....even in torture camps haven't...uh......died.  And that's doing it for real.  Uh....we're talking about the simulation of it....Uh....like in other words, not actually uh pouring enough water down someone's throat while they can't breath....Uh...or continuing to pour water long enough so as to keep them from being able to take their next breath .....Uh...it's called simulation.....experiencing a similar feeling without actually drowning to death.....does that uh....clear it up for you?
 

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 1:44:39 PM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

Ummm.. people's hearts fail from the stress of it. People's lungs fill with water and the interrogators sometimes don't get it out quickly enough - then they drown.


So I guess that guy they waterboarded 183 times must have been wearing scuba gear, right?



ps

With bush in charge it wouldn't totally shock me that he was.



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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 1:58:30 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

Actually many ( or most ) people who experience waterboarding....even in torture camps haven't...uh......died.  And that's doing it for real.  Uh....we're talking about the simulation of it....Uh....like in other words, not actually uh pouring enough water down someone's throat while they can't breath....Uh...or continuing to pour water long enough so as to keep them from being able to take their next breath .....Uh...it's called simulation.....experiencing a similar feeling without actually drowning to death.....does that uh....clear it up for you?
 


I have to correct this because I did do the waterboarding thing for fun...yes techniques are performed to prevent the person from getting air. That's part of why waterboarding was covered in a breath play class.

Here's how we did it..

Set up: Dental chair (use a board if you like or just turn someone backwards over the edge of the bath tub) with the head in a declined position the chest and feet only slightly higher than the head....the more the incline the more intense and dangerous it gets. No restraints (though you can do that if you want too...again the note above about dangerous and all).(I might suggest a swimmers nose plug)

One technique used involved putting saran wrap over the face with a little hole over the mouth...pour water into the hole. This stops water from getting up the nose and causing choking. Water kept getting poured until the person sat up....the water and natural suction cause by the saran wrap prevented air from being able to get into the persons lungs and there's only so much water you can drink before needing a breath.

Technique two...take a wash cloth or something very absorbent of that size and neatly roll it up so that it stuffs into the bottoms mouth. Start pouring water. The washcloth will absorb water for a bit before it maximum capacity and water starts pouring into the bottom.

Finally, you can go the traditional route and either submerge the person repeatedly in water or get a garden hose and keep it going over their face until someone calls red.

All of these things trigger natural panic responses in the body and are pretty intense and loads of fun.

boi
Future ruler of the Universe serving MsKitty
Silently plotting the revenge of the swine


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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:03:01 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen


I have to correct this because I did do the waterboarding thing for fun...yes techniques are performed to prevent the person from getting air. That's part of why waterboarding was covered in a breath play class.



And just like with breath play, optimally, it's never long enough to cause death.  So, sure, while you might be struggling to hold your breath momentarily, I wouldn't imagine anyone would be pouring water long enough to inhibit the subject from the taking the next breath when they're in the moment of need.

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:09:56 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

How do you simulate drowning? Just a question.


Exactly.


How do you simulate rape?  How do you simulate kidnapping?  Or any of the other stuff that many bdsmer's engage in?





Uh  here the thing it kinda important so listen up....  drowning you uh die   does that clear it up for you ????

BadOne



Actually many ( or most ) people who experience waterboarding....even in torture camps haven't...uh......died.  And that's doing it for real.  Uh....we're talking about the simulation of it....Uh....like in other words, not actually uh pouring enough water down someone's throat while they can't breath....Uh...or continuing to pour water long enough so as to keep them from being able to take their next breath .....Uh...it's called simulation.....experiencing a similar feeling without actually drowning to death.....does that uh....clear it up for you?
 


Strongly suggests you reread the question.... i highlited it for you.. just so there is not a misunderstanding  you can fake a lot of things as you point out ...however drowning im quite sure is a ONE shot deal.

Water boarding is waterboarding    drowning = dead am i getting thru to you?

BadOne


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:14:39 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

drowning = dead am i getting thru to you?



Yeah, it's bollocks, though.

The OP is about simulating drowning.

'Simulating' being the operative word.

Were the question about actual drowning, then the word 'simulating' would have been redundant.

Focus on 'simulating'. 

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:18:21 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		The topic is about waterboarding.  There are some people who are of the opinion that waterboarding equals drowning, as we saw in the documentary pieces (if you watched them) and also in some of the poster commentary here on the thread.

It seemed clear to me that when kittin responded to the OP asking how you simulate "drowning" she was conflating drowning with waterboarding.  If she wasn't well, then her question "how do you simulate drowning" would seem completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.  But maybe she'll come back to clarify.


(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:20:21 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		drown
v. drowned, drown·ing, drowns v.tr.1. To kill by submerging and suffocating in water or another liquid.2. To drench thoroughly or cover with or as if with a liquid.3. To deaden one's awareness of; blot out: people who drowned their troubles in drink.4. To muffle or mask (a sound) by a louder sound: screams that were drowned out by the passing train.v.intr. To die by suffocating in water or another liquid.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/drowning

drowningdeath from suffocation resulting from aspiration of water or other substance or fluid. Drowning occurs because the liquid prevents breathing.

drowning /drown·ing/ (droun´ing) suffocation and death resulting from filling of the lungs with water or other substance.

orland()


drowning,n asphyxiation because of submersion in a liquid.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/drowning



What SailingBum is saying is that you can't simulate death. Which I have to agree with.

boi
Future ruler of the Universe serving MsKitty
Silently plotting the revenge of the swine

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:23:06 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subbisherri

It's been in the news a lot the past while, what with Gitmo and CIA interrogations and Obama issuing apologies. I'm not talking about the medieval version of getting strapped to a board and dunked, but the one with a cloth over your face and water being poured on to simulate drowning.
Since incarceration / interrogation / we-have-ways-of-making-you-talk is one of my fave scenes, I'm more than a little intrigued with the possibility of doing it.
So, the obvious question: has anyone tried it, and how did it go?

ss

PS: cross-posting this to "ask a submissive" as well.

i get so that i don't know what's being poured over me.


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RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:41:08 PM   
darklight17


Posts: 103
Joined: 3/30/2009
Status: offline 		I read the OP, and it really spread into a firestorm quickly. We're not even sure to what capacity of simulating waterboarding we're really even talking about. That's right, we're talking about simulating a simulation of something dangerous. I'd can see where it could be edgy and dangerous (which wouldn't be my thing with water), but I'm going to have to assume that the person is smart enough to not kiss death.

I mean honestly, tit for tat, how many of you have pounded enough alcohol to throw up? So you like playing with poison? It's just as immediately irresponsible to do a lot of things without precaution.



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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:45:39 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

drown

What SailingBum is saying is that you can't simulate death. Which I have to agree with.



You can simulate anything you want to: rape, death, flying an aeroplane, anything you like. Experience and simulation are not the same of course, and if that's what you mean then you're spot on; but the OP is focused on simulation as opposed to a comparison with experience.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 2:54:18 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darklight17


I mean honestly, tit for tat, how many of you have pounded enough alcohol to throw up? So you like playing with poison? It's just as immediately irresponsible to do a lot of things without precaution.




I'm not saying I would do this.  In fact, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't.  I also wouldn't
have someone cut me, or suspend me or choke me,  or a million and one other things that I feel are not worth the risk for me, but that isn't the point. 

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 3:15:07 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darklight17

It's just as immediately irresponsible to do a lot of things without precaution.



ok my apologies... i need to get a life and stop derailing threads BUT.....what is 'immediately irresponsible'??
i mean is it possible to be reflectively irresponsible?


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 3:19:50 PM   
darklight17


Posts: 103
Joined: 3/30/2009
Status: offline 		I read the term in "The Forward" which implies that you put yourself in a risky situation of your own doing precisely at the present moment.

I also plea the 5th on why I am reading "The Forward".

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:01:22 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I had to remind myself that we are talking about consentual thrills here.  I think it's important to keep this in the context in which it's been presented. 


By that thought, anything that both parties "consent" to trying is open game to engage in.  At some point, someone needs to have the forethought to say "this is a bit too risky".  I don't remember the exact link,although I think it was on the ...in the news section on this site several years ago.  There was a man who "fantasized" and consented to being enslaved by disappearing completely from the world at large and his only release would be if his "master/captor" killed him.  Needless to say he found someone who was willing to assist him with his fantasy, and needless to say the reality was nothing like what he envisioned, but the agreement with his captor was that under NO circumstances was he to be released.  Everyone consented, which by the above logic makes it very "ok" to engage in.  Yet eventually the victim escaped and the "master" was prosecuted.  At some point, the desire to engage in something is not at the extreme end of a calculated risk.  At some point it is something that shouldn't be engaged in, because it can not be done safely. 

I'm not stating whether or not this is the case with waterboarding.  Having read BoiJen's post on how it was done, it may be possible to do it safely.  The point is that quite honestly, a lot of people would engage in such edge play without the benefit of the class that BoiJen described, therefore they would not be knowledgable enough to not only engage in such play, but likely not be qualified to assess the risk involved.  Next thing you know is someone is posting on the "....in the news" board how someone is being held legally responsible for the death of someone who consented to such play and everyone is whining how horrible it is that BDSM is getting such a "bad rap" and the poor master shouldn't be held accountable for drowning his poor slave since they knew the risks when they consented.  That kind of logic just doesn't fly in the real world, and no matter how much one likes to engage in edge play, at the end of the day you live in the real world and are held responsible for your actions regardless of who consented to what.  And it all happened because the people involved did not assess the risk accurately, did not obtain the proper training and information before trying something just because they thought it would be "hot."

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RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:03:06 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		P.S.  to BoiJen, I do thank you for your post regarding what you learned regarding the methods and precautions that are taken.  My point is simply that I don't believe the majority of people would have taken the time to learn what you did before trying it.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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