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RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:20:09 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

I had to remind myself that we are talking about consentual thrills here.  I think it's important to keep this in the context in which it's been presented. 


By that thought, anything that both parties "consent" to trying is open game to engage in. 


Exactly.

quote:

At some point, someone needs to have the forethought to say "this is a bit too risky". 


Who is "someone"?    And who defines "too risky" ?  You?  Me?  Or the people involved?

quote:

At some point it is something that shouldn't be engaged in, because it can not be done safely. 


Again, who decides that it "shouldn't be engaged in"?  Breath play cant be done safely either.  And that's why I won't do it.  I did it a couple times then read about the risks and decided never to do it again. But again, that's me.  If someone is willing to risk their life, willing to risk a jail sentence, willing risk getting hurt etc....Who draws where that line is if not the consenting adults?  

quote:

  The point is that quite honestly, a lot of people would engage in such edge play without the benefit of the class that BoiJen described, therefore they would not be knowledgable enough to not only engage in such play, but likely not be qualified to assess the risk involved. 


People do stupid things every single day.  If you're an adult and decide to do something risky without looking into it and without assessing the risk involved, oh well, then I guess you're just as apt to get hurt as someone who climbs Mount Everest  or goes skiing without preparation, research and precaution. 

quote:

Next thing you know is someone is posting on the "....in the news" board how someone is being held legally responsible for the death of someone who consented to such play and everyone is whining how horrible it is that BDSM is getting such a "bad rap" and the poor master shouldn't be held accountable for drowning his poor slave since they knew the risks when they consented.  That kind of logic just doesn't fly in the real world, and no matter how much one likes to engage in edge play, at the end of the day you live in the real world and are held responsible for your actions regardless of who consented to what.  And it all happened because the people involved did not assess the risk accurately, did not obtain the proper training and information before trying something just because they thought it would be "hot."


Unfortunately there are many bdsm activities that can't actually be engaged in with complete safety.   Personally, I'm not willing to risk death or injury in exchange for a thrill but someone else is.  And I don't think it's my place to tell them not to, although I might advocate getting all the info possible and being aware of the risks.

< Message edited by marie2 -- 5/13/2009 4:21:56 PM >

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:25:45 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

P.S.  to BoiJen, I do thank you for your post regarding what you learned regarding the methods and precautions that are taken.  My point is simply that I don't believe the majority of people would have taken the time to learn what you did before trying it.


And what makes you think that most people are that stupid?  You just got done writing about how bad BDSMers look to the rest of the world, yet you're basically saying that you believe most of us aren't smart enough to prepare first.   Do you see boijen as an exception? 

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:28:27 PM   
janiebelle


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Strongly suggests you reread the question.... i highlited it for you.. just so there is not a misunderstanding  you can fake a lot of things as you point out ...however drowning im quite sure is a ONE shot deal.

Water boarding is waterboarding    drowning = dead am i getting thru to you?

BadOne



Dead, dead?  Or just "simulated dead".  Is that like "mostly dead"?
I've got to agree here.  Drowning is an "all dead" proposition.  the other "simulations" in which people participate may have unintended consequences, but in most cases "DEATH" is not at the top of the list for those consequences.
j

(in reply to SailingBum)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:30:13 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Strongly suggests you reread the question.... i highlited it for you.. just so there is not a misunderstanding  you can fake a lot of things as you point out ...however drowning im quite sure is a ONE shot deal.

Water boarding is waterboarding    drowning = dead am i getting thru to you?

BadOne



Dead, dead?  Or just "simulated dead".  Is that like "mostly dead"?
I've got to agree here.  Drowning is an "all dead" proposition.  the other "simulations" in which people participate may have unintended consequences, but in most cases "DEATH" is not at the top of the list for those consequences.
j


It's always such a relief to see that so many people agree that dead means dead.  And I'm glad we cleared that up for those who weren't sure.

(in reply to janiebelle)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:31:05 PM   
Stephen123456


Posts: 25
Joined: 3/31/2009
Status: offline 		As one who has been trained a bit beyond your first-aid/cpr card carriers out there, (ALS, Open water rescue, etc) and understanding the medical effects of what is so lightly called "breath-play", let us get to root terms: ANOXIA! every time you deprive a person of the ability to breathe past a certain point, you are inflicting BRAIN DAMAGE! The real insidious thing is that the effects can go unnoticed, and build up over time. Also, your average dominant ISN'T always going to be aware of all of the symptoms, which leads to possible sudden unconciousness/coma/death. The down-side for the sub is pretty obvious, brain-damage or death.. The down-side for the dominant is that when the para's show-up, and it becomes obvious that this was an inflicted condition, and it will, the police get called-in automatically. That it was "consensual" matters not one iota, as the comatose or dead person can't speak in your defense, and only the fact that it was caused by deliberate actions matters. Can you say Man-1 at the least? The point here is, no matter HOW skilled you THINK you are at this form of play, you don't even BEGIN to know enough to manage it. Stick to other forms, this one is only for the pro's, and I don't mean pro-doms. When someone is being water-boarded, there ARE medical personnel standing-by steps away, with all the equipment and training needed, and occaisionally monitoring discretely, remember, their idea is NOT to kill the individual. If the real professionals take that much care, that says up-front that YOU aren't ready for this. Play some other way,

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:35:42 PM   
janiebelle


Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

Unfortunately there are many bdsm activities that can't actually be engaged in with complete safety.   Personally, I'm not willing to risk death or injury in exchange for a thrill but someone else is.  And I don't think it's my place to tell them not to, although I might advocate getting all the info possible and being aware of the risks.


My sentiments exactly.
I'm not ready to put my life on the line for a thrill.
If another is, that's on them.
The whole thing is based on informed consent.
j

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 4:39:00 PM   
BadJezebel


Posts: 138
Joined: 4/29/2006
Status: offline 		Regarding waterboarding, let's bring the the conversation back to the topic.  

I've been looking into it for a long while and trying to arrange for a safe experience with a willing victim  (I have someone in mind but haven't decided on him yet).  While I like the way that BoiJen discribed that lady in Florida's way to do it, I have another idea:  I intend to put someone on an inclined board (as mentioned) because it causes them to put a little more effort into breathing and also disorients them.  Then I would use the plastic wrap in the same way but only dampen the washcloth.  I would have them held rather than tied down so that they can be let up quickly.  The main difference is that I would only pour water over the top half of the face while putting pressure on the chest with a foot or knee. 

I'd also make sure that there was a doctor or nurse either in the room or right outside the door. 

< Message edited by BadJezebel -- 5/13/2009 4:49:41 PM >

(in reply to subbisherri)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 5:22:44 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

At some point, someone needs to have the forethought to say "this is a bit too risky". 


Who is "someone"?    And who defines "too risky" ?  You?  Me?  Or the people involved?


Yes, I mean the people involved.  The term "forethought" would imply the people taking the action.

quote:

At some point it is something that shouldn't be engaged in, because it can not be done safely. 


quote:


Again, who decides that it "shouldn't be engaged in"?  Breath play cant be done safely either.  And that's why I won't do it.  I did it a couple times then read about the risks and decided never to do it again. But again, that's me.  If someone is willing to risk their life, willing to risk a jail sentence, willing risk getting hurt etc....Who draws where that line is if not the consenting adults?  


This is my point entirely.  FIRST you did it, THEN you read about it.  Not exactly assessing the risks prior to the behavior are you?


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

P.S.  to BoiJen, I do thank you for your post regarding what you learned regarding the methods and precautions that are taken.  My point is simply that I don't believe the majority of people would have taken the time to learn what you did before trying it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
And what makes you think that most people are that stupid?  You just got done writing about how bad BDSMers look to the rest of the world, yet you're basically saying that you believe most of us aren't smart enough to prepare first.   Do you see boijen as an exception? 


At what point in my post did I say people were "stupid"?  I don't think it has anything to do with stupidity, I think it has to do with being so excited by the idea of things that one forgets to appropriately assess the risk first.  Actually I see BoiJen as an exception because she stated flat out how she assessed the risk and learned about the process before engaging in risky behavior. 

Further, people taking the position that it "isn't your place" to tell people what to do has, through history, shown to have some serious adverse affects.  Societies creates laws regarding behavior to protect the population as a whole.  Where exactly do you draw the line of what is right and wrong?  Would you tell someone to assess the risk prior to committing murder because it isn't your place to tell them otherwise?  If you saw someone beating a child at the local supermarket, would you take the position that is "isn't your place" to stop them and protect the innocent?  I don't think that you would.  But yet you would tell two grown adults who may be consumed with excitement over a particular fantasy, "go ahead, read about it, and if you think it is a good idea, then go for it."  Someone thinks that it is a good idea to commit suicide because they are depressed, you tell them to go for it? 

I have at no point stated whether I believe waterboarding, blood play, knife play, gun play or any other edge play is right or wrong.  I honestly don't know enough about them to form that kind of opinion.  But you proved my point better than I ever could about people engaging in high risk behavior without the facts by stating that you did so and then only AFTER when you found out the risks decided to stop.  As I have not called you or anyone else stupid (as you claim), I also believe at some point, you understood that you were lucky that nothing went wrong, and wondered if your partner had thought it sounded "cool" and tried it without learning about it, he either got lucky, or you wouldn't be saying everyone should be free to take whatever risks they choose regardless of the consequences.  Quite honestly the people in the concentration camps in WWII died because the majority of the people didn't think it was "their place" to stand up and say stop. 

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 5:39:52 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

This is my point entirely.  FIRST you did it, THEN you read about it.  Not exactly assessing the risks prior to the behavior are you?


With a partner, I practiced a very mild form of holding my breath for him (I knew the risks involved and did it anyway).  Then we had discussed taking it further and moving into other types of breathplay that are considered more risky...ie...choking and things of that nature....I did some reading and research on it and decided not to take it further because I felt it was too risky for me.  





quote:

Further, people taking the position that it "isn't your place" to tell people what to do has, through history, shown to have some serious adverse affects.  Societies creates laws regarding behavior to protect the population as a whole.  Where exactly do you draw the line of what is right and wrong?  Would you tell someone to assess the risk prior to committing murder because it isn't your place to tell them otherwise?  If you saw someone beating a child at the local supermarket, would you take the position that is "isn't your place" to stop them and protect the innocent?  I don't think that you would.  But yet you would tell two grown adults who may be consumed with excitement over a particular fantasy, "go ahead, read about it, and if you think it is a good idea, then go for it."  Someone thinks that it is a good idea to commit suicide because they are depressed, you tell them to go for it? 


Oh, jesus christ...I don't even have the energy to take these non-analogous and lurid examples apart.


(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 6:45:17 PM   
ZenDragoness


Posts: 372
Joined: 1/21/2006
From: Berlin/Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: darklight17

It's just as immediately irresponsible to do a lot of things without precaution.



ok my apologies... i need to get a life and stop derailing threads BUT.....what is 'immediately irresponsible'??
i mean is it possible to be reflectively irresponsible?



Prinsexx,

your words had me laughing hysterically. Thank you!

ZD

Both is possible, immediate would be a reflexlike reaction, like choking somebody to death because he or she loves strawberry icecream, reflectively would be if the choking occurs after you gave the icecream issue some serious thought.


_____________________________

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(in reply to Prinsexx)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 6:47:29 PM   
ZenDragoness


Posts: 372
Joined: 1/21/2006
From: Berlin/Germany
Status: offline 		But what about the vampire crowd. I think for them dead means undead, or not?

_____________________________

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http://goldenerkern.blogspot.com/

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 7:47:16 PM   
mummyman321


Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		I am fond of a ancient chineese method of water torture. Of course the person is bound usually in the lying down position. The water is splashed on the face. Then pieces of rice paper are laid over the entire face. Then more water is splashed on the face. This is repeated several times with each time adding a new layer of rice paper.

The rice paper absorbs the water and clings to the face. With each new layer breathing become more difficult as the paper soaks of the water and seals tightly against the face.

_____________________________

Life - Its not about where you are but about the journey to get there - I prefer to choose the road less traveled

(in reply to subbisherri)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 8:38:16 PM   
SIRLOINSTEAK


Posts: 84
Joined: 3/30/2009
Status: offline 		Well, I have been waterboarded by strangers....but its different when you know your still in control.....

I wasn't really hand-cuffed, and completely out of control, which might cause a person to panic more.....

The only way to really drown is to panic, if you are calm, they might just kill you inadvertantly because they don't really know how long you can hold your breath......

How well would it work to try to water-board James Bond I wonder.....

Not that I want to be a spy who tells everyone the same name all the time mind you. ;/ That isn't a very good spy......You do a mission, I want to change identities now. lol That way, if you find people from a past mission, now you got 2 names, can we say Awkward. Maybe not. just be quick on your feet. Yea, I changed my name before the divorce where the old lady wanted half my stuff. lol Unfortunately, still married to the gold-digger. ;/

(in reply to ZenDragoness)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 9:23:11 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

How do you simulate drowning? Just a question.


Exactly.


How do you simulate rape?  How do you simulate kidnapping?  Or any of the other stuff that many bdsmer's engage in?





Uh  here the thing it kinda important so listen up....  drowning you uh die   does that clear it up for you ????

BadOne



Actually many ( or most ) people who experience waterboarding....even in torture camps haven't...uh......died.  And that's doing it for real.  Uh....we're talking about the simulation of it....Uh....like in other words, not actually uh pouring enough water down someone's throat while they can't breath....Uh...or continuing to pour water long enough so as to keep them from being able to take their next breath .....Uh...it's called simulation.....experiencing a similar feeling without actually drowning to death.....does that uh....clear it up for you?
 


 What information do  you have that supports this statement? What would you know about "most" or "many" of the people who have experienced waterboarding? What do you know of torture camps??
Uh ..... how about backing up erroneous statements with something substantiated that you can actually prove that isn't hearsay or something you've read??
Uh ..............then you might actually be taken seriously


_____________________________

"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.


see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 9:24:54 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raechard

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuixoticErrant
Ummm.. people's hearts fail from the stress of it. People's lungs fill with water and the interrogators sometimes don't get it out quickly enough - then they drown. This is not about being tough. This is a technique that is classified as a really bad, and possibly lethal form of torture by everyone except Bush and Cheney.

This is not a matter of making little pontifications over about toughness or kink.

The shallow narcissism gets to be a little much.

Perhaps there are some who think being broken on a wheel is hot too. They too are called sick, deranged morons.

I am simply appalled that anyone could respond to this post with anything other than disgust.


You could have simply avoided the thread if you feel so strongly about it. I share your sentiment (that it's not something I would personally enjoy and many others would regret trying) but I don't share your desire to rule which topics can be discussed and which we should feel morally disgusted by. That is the edge to edge play i.e. some play with knives, some seem to enjoy asphyxiation, some like to stick needles through themselves. There is always risk no matter how much you control those risks there is always residual risk i.e. did nobody ever pick up a serious infection from a hospital even though that is a clinical environment supposedly? I don’t like the theme it’s in poor taste but then there are plenty of other kinks that started in bad taste, who am I to deplore any of those? Slavery etc?

Moralisers ha.


Raechard,  I also agree this topic is in extremely poor taste.  QuixoticErrant  does have just as much right to an opinion however impassioned as every else who has posted here.

scarlet


_____________________________

"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.


see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to Raechard)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 9:37:43 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: janiebelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

Strongly suggests you reread the question.... i highlited it for you.. just so there is not a misunderstanding  you can fake a lot of things as you point out ...however drowning im quite sure is a ONE shot deal.

Water boarding is waterboarding    drowning = dead am i getting thru to you?

BadOne



Dead, dead?  Or just "simulated dead".  Is that like "mostly dead"?
I've got to agree here.  Drowning is an "all dead" proposition.  the other "simulations" in which people participate may have unintended consequences, but in most cases "DEATH" is not at the top of the list for those consequences.
j


I was laffing as i was reading your post and Then.... marie post AKA you fake drowning like you fake rape....  pips in with glad we got dead cleared up ...   Classic just fucking Classic  which made me laff even harder.  I do enjoi the boards.

BadOne


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 9:38:08 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

P.S.  to BoiJen, I do thank you for your post regarding what you learned regarding the methods and precautions that are taken.  My point is simply that I don't believe the majority of people would have taken the time to learn what you did before trying it.


And what makes you think that most people are that stupid?  You just got done writing about how bad BDSMers look to the rest of the world, yet you're basically saying that you believe most of us aren't smart enough to prepare first.   Do you see boijen as an exception? 


What makes you think everything is about you personally?? She (LafayetteLady) never said most of "us" you are assuming with that statement and  you do know what they say about people who have a bad habit of assuming. Then again..............if the shoe fits






_____________________________

"The words 'I am...' are potent words; be careful what you hitch them to. The thing you're claiming has a way of reaching back and claiming you." - A.L. Kitselman.


see my profile masterkspet

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: waterboarding - 5/13/2009 9:52:39 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2


quote:

Further, people taking the position that it "isn't your place" to tell people what to do has, through history, shown to have some serious adverse affects.  Societies creates laws regarding behavior to protect the population as a whole.  Where exactly do you draw the line of what is right and wrong?  Would you tell someone to assess the risk prior to committing murder because it isn't your place to tell them otherwise?  If you saw someone beating a child at the local supermarket, would you take the position that is "isn't your place" to stop them and protect the innocent?  I don't think that you would.  But yet you would tell two grown adults who may be consumed with excitement over a particular fantasy, "go ahead, read about it, and if you think it is a good idea, then go for it."  Someone thinks that it is a good idea to commit suicide because they are depressed, you tell them to go for it? 


Oh, jesus christ...I don't even have the energy to take these non-analogous and lurid examples apart.




They are not non-analogous at all.  The point is everyone needs to "draw a line in the sand" somewhere.  Most on this site have no problem bashing the cheating spouse (that is those who SECRETLY find playmates without permission of their spouse).  They have drawn a line.  Most have no trouble saying that someone who lies is contemptuous and deserving of ridicule.  They have drawn a line.  The examples I gave were accurate.  During WWII, the christian germans didn't get involved because they didn't see it affecting them.  It wasn't their place to do anything.  They drew the line when it affected them.   People watch others abuse their children or the spouse everyday, and do nothing because "it isn't their place", yet they are shocked and outraged when those victims of abuse turn up dead, never considering how their own inaction played a part.  The "live and let live" mentality only goes so far.  Perhaps you would like to live in a state of anarchy where there were no laws or government to protect society as a whole.  But to pick and choose which things people do and don't have a right to interfere in, such as it's ok to bash liars and cheaters, but ok not to advise against the dangers of other behavior is hypocritical.  For that matter, telling me I don't have the right to say there are some behaviors and activities that people just shouldn't participate in is just as hypocritical. 

I stand by my opinion.   You can stand by yours.  If you can rest peacefully at night because you chose not to attempt to warn or protect someone you thought might be engaging in dangerous activities, good for you.  Personally, I prefer to do what is within my power, regardless of "my place" to try to protect others.  For me, this exchange is over.  The inconsistency and lack of logic is just not worth my time.

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: waterboarding - 5/14/2009 3:22:06 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		[/quote]

 What information do  you have that supports this statement? What would you know about "most" or "many" of the people who have experienced waterboarding? What do you know of torture camps??
Uh ..... how about backing up erroneous statements with something substantiated that you can actually prove that isn't hearsay or something you've read??
Uh ..............then you might actually be taken seriously

[/quote]

I don't have any problems getting people to take me seriously, but thanks for your concern.

No one is disputing that many if not most people in torture camps survive being waterboarded, we know this because they're still alive to give us the account.  And if you're interested in this information, you can find it very easily for yourself, simply by googling.  I have no intention of doing your legwork.  On a side note, you may want to also consider the context of this OP and the fact that this is a simulation. 

< Message edited by marie2 -- 5/14/2009 3:56:10 AM >

(in reply to scarlethiney)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: waterboarding - 5/14/2009 3:25:18 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		 
Suicide, murder, abuse, and the holocoust are analogous with bdsm edge play? 

This isnt even argument-worthy.   

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 60
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