RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (Full Version)

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DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 7:58:01 PM)

I'm done with this ignorance, especially after LotusSong's post. NOBODY has the right to tell me I'm not a real woman or suggest that I'm delusional for believing I am.



Lockit -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 7:59:56 PM)

Some get so full of fight that they can't see that no one is fighting them in the ways they think they are being fought.



MissDominae -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 8:23:23 PM)

One of the reasons that I don't usually get involved in threads like this is that it tends to foster an "us versus them" mentality, with trans folk on one side and the rest of the world on the other; a world where never the twain shall meet.

Most transfolk - and, although born Intersexed, I also accept that label applies to me because I transitioned from the arbitrary gender allocated to me shortly after birth to the gender I innately knew was mine all along - get past this us versus them thing by simply becoming one of "them".   We accept and love ourselves for who we are and live our lives as who we are.   We accept that some will support us, some will reject us and most will just ignore us as they do with the rest of the world for, as was very well said by a previous poster, it is our own issues and lives which tend to be of foremost interest.

Becoming "them" doesn't mean you have to live in stealth; lets face it, most of us aren't that lucky that we can do so.   It means that we come to accept ourselves as simply another human being living a life as well as we can, dealing with whatever problems and issues which arise as well as we are able, making and losing friends, going in and out of relationships and so on.   We remain 'trans' to most people only for as long as we keep waving that label under their noses - once we lose the label, most of the perceived difference between 'us' and 'them' disappears.   We become just another wonderful, special, unique, often confused and emotionally mucked up, error prone, needy and nurturing, loving and lovable human soul.  

When I begin any meaningful relationship - friendship, work, intimate or whatever - I disclose my issues and my past and my labels if they are relevant, answer honestly about them if asked, and ignore them as not being of relevance if the situation allows.    All of us have issues and labels and I daresay that most of us take the same approach as me and deal with each situation, and each label, as it arises.   We all live with labels; I have many -    Overweight.   Middle aged.   Lesbian.   Dominant.   Rape survivor.   Disabled person.   Intersex person.   Abuse survivor.   Woman.   Kinky.   Plain.   Talkative.   Emotional.   Our labels describe us but they do not define us.   Even our past does NOT define us.   We define ourselves through the responses we give to life's issues and the choices we make.   These are some of MY choices.

I CHOOSE to be a normal and happy woman.
I CHOOSE to forgive those who hurt me, intentionally or carelessly.
I CHOOSE to acknowledge my faults and mistakes, apologise for them and rectify the hurt I may have caused where I can.
I CHOOSE to love and be loved and to be open to all the possibilities of life and love.
I CHOOSE to remember my past and be thankful for all the lessons it taught, but not to be forever bound by that past.
I CHOOSE to grow and develop as a woman, as a Dominant, as a person, as a friend, as a lover, as a person.
I CHOOSE not to be a victim, but to be a survivor, helping guide others past the same pitfalls through my own experiences.

Above all......

I CHOOSE to be responsible, wholly and solely, for all the emotional responses I make to life.   I do not control the events which may happen but I DO control how I respond.   I choose a positive life over a negative, self-pitying one.

Being born trans makes no difference to the choices we make in our lives Lindsey.   Right now, I feel you could be making far better choices than the ones you are showing to us in your posts and I'm sure you're aware of that.   You've shown great strength and courage to come this far; now you must choose between continuing to show that same strength or to fall into despair, anger, pity or other negative aspects of life.

What will YOU choose?



JuliaGreenleaf -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 8:30:50 PM)

Hey Dream - you will find acceptance. It happens. I tend to the Goddess -centred model - we were sent here with bright spirits to try a bit harder -that's all.
Hugs.
Hugs.
Hugs.
As for being accepted into an intimate relationship - well that's entirely the people involved's choices. Largely to me , this is about acceptance as who I am . The two are difference. I can still be a trans woman - you can decide not to date trans women. It's like deciding not to date women with red hair. That is your choice.




RedMagic1 -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 8:33:34 PM)

JuliaGreenleaf, I agree the queen-of-france post was vile.  That poster has a history of saying, ah, less than uplifting things, so please do consider the source.  I also agree there is tremendous prejudice against TG.  I was living in California when Gwen Araujo was beaten to death, and xhe was "just" CD.  So yeah.

You may know there is a petition drive to remove the listings of "sadism" and "masochism" from the next edition of the DSM.  The petition essentially says the DSM diagnoses those kinks as disorders, so that should change.  I won't sign that petition.  Why?  Because the actual wording of the DSM classifies sadism as a disorder only if the sadist performs nonconsensual acts, and classifies masochism as a disorder only if the masochist is unable to perform necessary life functions as a result of the masochism.  The wording of diagnosable masochism is similar to other diagnosable addictions.

In short, the DSM as written is just fine.  Kinks are only diagnosable if they are nonconsual or addictive behavior.  I discussed this with one of the directors of the petition drive, and she said she wanted the wording changed anyway, because anti-kink therapists were using it against clients.  Well, fight the science perversion then, not the science itself.

How will you recruit allies to your struggle if you call someone prejudiced just because they don't phrase things exactly as you wish?  Take me, for example.  I'm not going to stop using the DSM word just because you post on a message board that the doctors wouldn't listen to the TG patients.  Maybe the docs listened, and decided for whatever reason, we're sticking with dysphoria anyway.  That doesn't mean there's prejudice there, necessarily.  Maybe so.  I'd need more data to take a position... and meanwhile, I'll stick with the technical terminology.



JuliaGreenleaf -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 8:34:17 PM)

Oh, but lotussong's post is so easy to rip apart. Obvious cisgender gloating about genetic privilage - the ignorance of one who was born into the right body and has never had to have her gender questioned. Proves my point.



LaTigresse -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 8:37:02 PM)

One nasty person does not a war make.............unless others choose that path.



Lockit -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 8:40:41 PM)

Beautiful post MissDominae! [sm=applause.gif]



JuliaGreenleaf -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 9:02:16 PM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu9A0LlLyvo

This totally proves what I am saying.
Bork. Bork. Bork
giggle
Asushunamir smiles at you sweetly.



aravain -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 9:26:57 PM)

MissDominae, I can't believe you've been around the site so long and haven't posted more than this.

You're a breath of very fresh air, and I agree with so very much of your post.

Thank you. [:)]



LadyPact -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/23/2009 11:44:33 PM)

As Red was kind enough to point out, while you may be the originator of this thread, it does not belong to you in any way.  I, and anyone else may participate within it if we so chose.  I don't take orders, and am more than willing for you to become angry just because I won't comply.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

@LadyPact and LaTigresse

Why did you feel the need to lend such comments, though, after LadyDominae and others had done much to help me out? They were supportive and understanding and nice, and I received their words well. Then, after the fact, you came on here and just lashed out with the mean stuff again. Again, what was your purpose? To be honest, it feels like you did it just to get a rise out of me. I don't appreciate that one bit. If you can't be nice, just go away.

By the way, I never spoke of "groups and organizations". I was talking about in dating. I thought I was pretty clear on that point. Still, I maintain what I just said: if you can't be nice, don't talk to me. I take enough crap from people as it is, I don't need to get yet more crap from people on a message board. You say I'm immature? You try losing everything that ever mattered to you in your life in the span of a few months and then come talk to me. It's extremely difficult to find the positive when your life falls apart. Excuse me for being upset and distressed and depressed. You sure as HELL aren't helping.


In your original, you absolutely did not specify individuals or personal dating.  While it was moved to that later in the thread, it wasn't in the opening.  In fact, here is exactly what you said:


quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

As a transsexual woman, I've gotten nothing but crapped and spit on by the LGB community. I am starting to find it hard to defend homosexuals when they seem to hate me so much over something I was born with. I've already seen people on this site, lesbians, who say outright no transgendered people allowed, which is discrimination.


You were very specific in mentioning the "community" which was a misrepresentation.  It wasn't until later in the thread that you said these were reactions that you received from individuals.  Instead, your opening remarks could easily have been construed as discrimination by the community.  By even your own accounts, this was incorrect.  Knowing many members of this community Myself, I was not willing to allow even the possibility of such misrepresentation to exist.  It was My purpose in this thread to make sure future readers knew that the groups and organizations in GA do welcome trans females (both pre-op and post op) as women on both sides of the kneel.  The fact that I pissed you off while doing so because I wouldn't blow smoke up your ass in the meantime, is of little consequence to Me.



popeye1250 -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 12:12:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

I'm done with this ignorance, especially after LotusSong's post. NOBODY has the right to tell me I'm not a real woman or suggest that I'm delusional for believing I am.


Dream, why would you want to hang out with or be around lesbians in the first place? They're ~miserable~, they hate men they hate other women they hate each other.
It doesn't matter, if you were *born* with "Jimmy and the twins" you're a *man* to them and that'll never change.
I don't hang out with or associate with people who don't like me because,....they don't like me!
Real simple isn't it?



MissDominae -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 12:14:20 AM)

Thank you so much Aravain.   There are so few topics on here I feel either qualified to comment on, or drawn to comment on - I suppose I've just let posting on the message boards go by the by.  

I can't promise I'll ever be prolific but I will try to driop in every now and then

Blessings and many thanks



Rule -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 12:17:43 AM)

I suspect that you have not only impressed Lockit and Aravain, but quite a lot of people, MD.



MissDominae -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 12:18:36 AM)

LOL Popeye .... I may have to return my membership card for Dykes'R'us then ..... I don't hate men, women, gay, straight or trans; on those rare occasions where I feel the emotion it is towards a specific person and not their label, for a specific reason and not just their falling into a general classification.

I guess I'll have to work on my discrimination skills a bit more  [:D]



MissDominae -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 12:28:19 AM)

Thank you for letting me know Rule .... I'd better get to work and make a pest of myself before my reputation as an utter bit#h is ruined forever [;)]

Being serious for a moment (just to prove I can be), I'm very appreciative of your comments and pleased that my small efforts to help Lindsey have been taken so positively.   Given the potential for such a thread to have gotten completely inflamed and out of hand, I think all those who have taken the time to answer the OP should be congratulated for their considered and patient answers.   

It can be difficult to continue politeness in the face of a victim mentality yet the people here have, in the main, done so wonderfully past the point where many other groups would have simply begun a bunfight.  

Everyone who has done so should take a bow........... NOW

(OK - you over there on the left; next time bow in time with the rest of us please~!)



Zevar -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 4:10:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

As a transsexual woman, I've gotten nothing but crapped and spit on by the LGB community. I am starting to find it hard to defend homosexuals when they seem to hate me so much over something I was born with. I've already seen people on this site, lesbians, who say outright no transgendered people allowed, which is discrimination.

Seriously. Why is there discrimination inside the LGBT community? It makes no sense. How can gays and lesbians expect to be free of discrimination when they actually discriminate themselves against transsexuals? A male-to-female transsexual, once post-op, is just as much a woman as any natural-born woman and is just as much a woman as any lesbian. So why all the hate? You all should know better.

~Lindsey


Greetings Lindsey:

I have not given this section of the message boards/forums much of a read until this topic caught my attenton. I wanted to take some time and reply to your thread. It is rather long even after an edit. So brace yourself for a long read.

To begin it is in my opinion that you are rather brave to have shared personal information with total strangers as you have risked in honesty. So understand I applaud your efforts in doing so.

Further It appears as though there have been differing replies also that perhaps you might not have cared to read and some were easier perhaps to read. Some were quite eloqently spoken. (IMO) Even though others write or say words that are not what is most wanted to hear we do still have the personal power to convert the negative to positive by our choices made in response to others opinions. I am not at all trying to diminish how it has been emotionally hurtful for you to have heard and experienced things which you appear to at the least to be questioning. Hopefully to gain a clearer perspective which will lend itself to a solid sense of clarity in your heart, mind and soul in the long run and to become a much stronger woman.

Understand I am not writing to give advise or trying to counsel you. I write because quite frankly what I see behind all of the challenges you have endured is a female/woman who has a different pathway to healing. A woman who is brave.

Gender is not defined for anyone overall by disagreements/misunderstandings. Obviously not. Instead gender is a much more complex issue, seemingly to those who have either not had to ask the " harder gender questions" and to those of who have not studied gender, sexuality and societal issues surrounding some of the issues presented here in your thread and then subsequently discussed thereafter.

Gender is not as simple as most of society might think or would like it to be. Studies show to the contrary in most instances on a global level.

(mono gendered = biologically born males and females who do not have to ever address issues surrounging gender dysphoria)
However gender differences between mono-gendered males and mono-gendered females can become quite heated. Not to mention the other areas of the gender continum such as intersex, trans-sexual and the like. Education around the issue of gender has really only begun to take place to some degree with the genesis of the feminist movement.

Understand I am not here to throw stones at any man/male/female/woman regardless of the spectrum on the gender continum.

Instead I am here to speak specifically to 1 woman, Lindsey.

I can only imagine you are an intelligent woman. Therefore without a doubt you must understand that perhaps some of the rejection you have experienced is due to some of what been endured during the long pain staking years that women/lesbians have done to find their place in society in a minute manner even so. They have fought hell and high waters and back again to get where they are. As have all who are in the LGBT Community.

Do I say this to excuse hate? Of course not! I do say it though because as human beings we all have our biased views and ongoing opinions which sometimes are not filtered with the compassion and sensitive notions that some might desire. We can dismiss hate. Yes! We can dismiss de-valuing another human being. Undoutedly! I would hope you agree with this?

Take note that I have not ever been accepted by Lesbian women. Most hetersexual men are not. Do I stop being the man I am because of this? Of course not. It would be utter nonsense for anyone to stop being who they are due to rejection or hate. I agree with you that Lesbians " should " know better. But then that is just to Lesbian women an opinion from another man who equals the male genitalia issue that most Lesbian women loathe. Do I then despise my male sexual organs due to this. Naturally not. Nor should any trans woman.

However when it comes to gender identity most people have not ever had to walk through the hateful ignorance that those who are born with their internal indentity of gender to be in conflict with what their physical body is reflecting ie: those who are trans-sexual individuals.

I speak from years of experience of my professional work with people who struggle with the issues of sexuality and gender dysphoria and all of the other issues on the entire continum of gender& sexuality. It is crucial to not minimize the experience of anyone who has been treated in a degrading manner due to their perceived gender. While it makes total sense that you do not care for anyone to define who they think you are in terms of your gender idenity, there will always be those that do. This I am sure you understand.

How you decide to address their opinions will lend itself to defining your gender indentity in a more solid perspective. If you decide to allow others to define who you are this is the issue to address and not the opinions of others. You hold the reigns to your own personal power. I invite you to use it more frequently and in doing so your internal self will more than likely strengthen. Be discerning and never allow another to dictate to you the terms of your gender indentity. If you do not it is only you to blame. Use your power to become empowered.

Remember when a body organ of anyone on the gender continum might need some form of surgery and the surgeon would determine that the gentialia of a mono-gendered male needs to have any of his sexual organs removed he remains a man. As does a mono-gendered female in the same scenario.

Now when the genitalia of a M-F Trans-Woman or F-M Trans- Man needs her/his genitalia removed or altered in some manner by a surgeon she/he remains the same gender that led to to explore this medical procedure to be congruent on a psycho-somatic level. ( mind and body )

Similiarly when a female that identifies her sexuality as a lesbian and if she would need a surgical procedure on her genitalia or surgery for breast cancer she too remains a woman.

The point is the gender identity and sexuality is determined solely by the individual person. Not from an external source based on the altercation or removal of genitalia. There is an old argument along the side of gender and sexuality. None the less you can only be who you are and who you are is all you can be. Be the best you and never neogoiate your core indentity away for anything. Might sound difficult. However it is something you must embrace. Claiming your power and stating your position regardless how the chips may fall.

I am certain if you are willing you will find your inner strength. It is a long road I tell those I work with in a professional manner but it is worth it. To be who you are is not something to ever apologize about.

So dust off your feet and rise up and make the choice to be the woman you are and forget those opinions that are hateful or degrading. Disagreement has been around ages and eons as have gender issues. The results you desire require you to take a stand for who you know yourself to be and also stand for all that you believe in or someone will also be willing to stand you down and define you wrongly.

In the nutshell: If whomever does not take the time to know who you are then you will in your own way find your inner strength to rise and know without a doubt simply it is their loss in doing so, not yours!

If you need someone to listen while you learn to sort out the stones among the pearls, one who will not lie to you and will always tell you what you need to hear so you can make informed decisions, then by all means I am willing to lend a hand your way with the goal of forming a friendship.

In closing if you would like any professional referrals you are welcome to ask for help. Feel free to send an email to me here at CM. I will be glad to connect you up with other professionals who can help you on your journey in your area.

Continue to be brave and never forget to be wise....woman!

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~





Rule -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 4:27:36 AM)

That is an amazingly, extremely, incredible long post! What kind of professional are you, Zevar? What are your credentials? How many patients have you treated? Please give us an example of such a patient and its successful treatment?



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 4:38:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

I'm done with this ignorance, especially after LotusSong's post. NOBODY has the right to tell me I'm not a real woman or suggest that I'm delusional for believing I am.


all the insights in here, and you choose to respond to that?

again, ill say, everyone has the right to say what they wish.  to some (many) the fact that you were born with a penis makes you a man, forever and ever amen.  going with your no one has the right argument, you do not have the right to tell me you are a woman when you had a penis at birth (see how silly that sounds?)

i suspect you have many more issues than being tg.  that is why i asked why you are unable to work.  i suspect it is due to a mental illness of some sort.

mental illnesses are treatable. forget your sex and seek help.  i fought panic attacks for years, becoming homebound by them.  when i finally hit bottom, and realized it was keeping me from being a good mom to my then infant son, i fought the fear, the paranoia and i made me go find help.  a few years of a support group, a couple years of drugs, and more importantly, talkin to wonderful people who were going through the same things, saved my life.  learning coping skills and talking to others who are like you helps everyone, no matter what demon you are fighting.

several have suggested you find a support group.  you are so hung up on your poor pityful me party that you can not accept advice.  you think your demons are worse than anyone elses. honey, we have all wrassled demons in our lifetimes and i know i, and many others, could tell you stories that would make you cry.

you are not special, you are not the only person to face rejection, ridicule, so on and so forth.

if you wish to be a woman, then put on your big girl panties and deal with it.  you are acting like a whiney lil baby.



thishereboi -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 4:59:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf
When I started my transition, i figured gays and lesbians would be allies. Lo and behold, I found out lesbians were some of the most prejudiced people against us, and hated us just because of our chromosomes. I noted it down under "things to avoid". It's gotten slightly better over the years, but still can be highly silly. I generally carefully date men now. It makes things a lot simpler.



Lesbians hate you because of your chromosomes? Are you sure about that, because I have been asked many times why I 'hate' men. When I say I don't hate men, people ask why I am a lesbian then. Now I am not sure why my not wanting to sleep with a penis equates into hate, but for some reason they think it does. Now I am sure there are lesbians out there who hate men and some who hate tg's. But to claim all lesbians hate is a bit extreme. As to the OP, I feel really bad that anyone would lose friends over this, but bad things happen and we have to find a way to work through them. Her attitude towards the people who have posted and tried to help would turn me off much quicker than any surgery she has had. 



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