RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (Full Version)

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DesFIP -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 5:34:28 AM)

FR

Having preferences is not the same as being prejudiced. Lesbians have the right to not be interested in men. They also have the right not to be interested in a trans. Straights have the right not to be interested in gays. Nobody has to agree to accept anyone else. And rejecting someone is not the same as being prejudiced.

Prejudice come in societal wide things. If you take government money you have to obey the 1964 civil rights act. You can have a school that only accepts Christians without being prejudiced as long as you don't get any public funding for anything ie tax credits, tax free status, transportation etc.

But you perving someone's profile and ranting that they're prejudiced simply because they aren't attracted to a trans is just showing you to be someone who has problems with rejection. Deal with it, everybody gets rejected for something. Your rant is equal to that of a married 60 year old guy who doesn't like getting rejected by the hot 20 something girls who aren't interested in being the bit on the side for a guy three times their age and weight.



LadyEllen -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 8:15:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

I'm done with this ignorance, especially after LotusSong's post. NOBODY has the right to tell me I'm not a real woman or suggest that I'm delusional for believing I am.


Yeah, well if you knew more about Lotus, you'd likely know more where that little diatribe came from as I do - basically a prior experience which hasnt made the best impression of us in general. I suspect you got walloped for your attitude in that youre not making the best impression with it; she's always been pretty cool with me.

As indeed has the vast majority of natal women on this site. Why that might be is I suspect down to the fact that I dont make a big deal of my identity, but just participate as anyone else does. But then I dealt with most of my shit a long time ago and it would seem you havent as yet. Which isnt to say youre in the wrong or deficient or defective or anything like that - just that you have to deal with your shit before you'll likely be ready to participate properly.

Make no mistake; changing gender is just about the most difficult thing any person can do, even if its something necessary to them. You have to go into it as something that is absolutely necessary, there is no alternative but to do it. You have to go into it knowing that, and being prepared to lose everything for it - partner, kids, family, friends, acquaintances, job, car, home - everything. And you have to go into it absolutely sure that its worth all that.

Even so it doesnt make it any less painful and distressing when you do lose all those things or even just a few of them. The depression and anguish such loss occasions is the shit you have to work through until you reach a point where it doesnt characterise your entire life view and limit your possibilities. It is a process akin to any grief process, and you are stuck in this process at the moment.

Keep going. You are attractive enough to pass well, choose stealth and understand that you must build yourself a new life now - and understand too (tough love coming up) that the vast majority of the species really have no interest in or time for your shit (they have their own), and will see you as a woman and treat you as a woman based on what you present to them - after all, they know nothing about your shit and deal based on their first impressions most of the time. Equally, the vast majority of the species are selfish and preoccupied with themselves so no one is going to help you, though they may prove helpful - this is down to you.

E



LadyEllen -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 8:41:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

I'm done with this ignorance, especially after LotusSong's post. NOBODY has the right to tell me I'm not a real woman or suggest that I'm delusional for believing I am.


Some more.

Understand now, that regardless of what you look like, act like, sound like and regardless of what your anatomy might be - you will never be a real woman (whatever one of those might be).

At the same time understand that regardless of what other people think of you (or what you imagine they think of you), you were never a real man (whatever one of those might be).

And understand that regardless of all this, there is no profit in thinking of yourself or presenting yourself as transgender.

Who you are is what you are. Who you are is down to your own self perceptions and self esteem. What others think here must become unimportant. And yet, to some extent we are defined in the wider world by others - and for this reason we must present who we are consistently, so that others may accept us for what we are - or reject us for what we are. We must understand that no one else owes us acceptance, still less friendship or love - just as we owe no one else acceptance, friendship or love except of our own free choice.

It is important to present ourselves as who we are. Others will then decide what we are for their purposes. Our own self perception of our own gender is largely irrelevant here - we might be for instance a natal man but if we act effeminately we shall not be dealt with as a real man (whatever one of those might be).

Know thyself and to thine own self be true. The rest really is down to others - with all the defects and deficiencies, prejudices and stupidity which we have in common with them.

We must first present ourselves as rounded, well mannered people. Anyone who doesnt accept us as a person is then simple a jerk not worth knowing. Those who do accept us will then deal with us on the basis of what they see in front of them - in your case a woman.

But what is a woman? Have a go at defining what a woman is and see how far you get - the most extreme examples of this exercise (conducted incidentally by ultra-feminist lesbians) resulted in practically none of that part of the population normally described as women, being defined as women.

Yet we all know who is a woman and who is not, right? And we dont need to go looking in people's knickers to make that distinction.

The truth is - and its a bit of a platitute of feminism I know - that women are people too. All shapes and sizes and shades, displaying all manners of behaviours and preferences, having dreams and ambitions that span every aspect of human endeavour and imagination, and possessed of a spectrum of abilities every bit as wide and varied as men. The importance of that phrase "women are people too" is often lost to men, and also to those raised as male who transition - its well worth contemplation until you "get it", if you dont get it already.

The overall point then is to be yourself, dont let your situation define you. After all, others' situations dont define them do they? Knowing many women on this site and knowing quite a bit about some of their situations, I can assure you that those situations dont define them. Separate the temporary situation which will change as surely as the seasons, from that which is constant - your own self. Dont let the temporary situation define or determine your self - that is delusional.

E



angelikaJ -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 9:01:04 AM)

FR

I have given this thread a lot of thought.

I realise that for all of my empathy, I will never know what it is like to be in the OP's shoes.
I don't understand the kind of courage she had: to be willing to travel to a different country and have surgery so that her appearance matched her inner self and to do that alone.
Nor do I understand the depth of the price she paid for making that choice: losing her family and friends.

Lindsey,

Some lesbians will discriminate against you because you used to have a penis.
And those that do would not be compatible with you anyway.
In other words, you really aren't missing out on anything.

But the good news is that some lesbians will see you for who you are.
You just haven't met them yet.





LaTigresse -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 10:13:42 AM)

Exactly. The thing is that I don't think in terms of specific anatomy persay, but moreso in humanity and presence. The really odd thing, at least to me, is that both Stella and LadyE are to me, women. I don't really think about what bits they were born with or not. It's not even something I think about until it is mentioned. I adore them for the human beings they are. That I cannot have a partner type relationship with either of them has nothing to do with bits, but other things, therefor it was never explored.

That being said, there is a certain level of awareness for the life path they have both traveled. An empathy for their struggles, and a respect for the way they deal with their life challenges. Both are very different women and both have had very different experiences, based upon what they have shared with us. Both I would be honoured to meet and know better.

Those are not the words of hate, not dislike, not distaste or any other negative emotion. To assume in terms of ALL, makes no sense to me.



LotusSong -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 10:49:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaGreenleaf

The queen of france stuff is pretty bad. It's basically saying that transpeople are deluded. Given that there are actually quite a lot of us these days, and that we all seem to transition, live as woman (or men if we go that way), and lead healthy, happy and productive lives if we get that far, this is a bit silly , at best.

I presented my post to evoke an emotion in you. Did you scoff at the thought that someone could possibly be the real Queen of France only to be ostricized because they weren't born correctly? What you felt is exactly what others feel when they read about those who "feel they were born in the wrong gender" and stamp their foot in
Shirly Temple indignation to anyone who says differently.
quote:



When I started my transition, i figured gays and lesbians would be allies. Lo and behold, I found out lesbians were some of the most prejudiced people against us, and hated us just because of our chromosomes. I noted it down under "things to avoid". It's gotten slightly better over the years, but still can be highly silly. I generally carefully date men now. It makes things a lot simpler.

Consider this.. guys well do ANYTHING to gain access to the lesbian community for a free show. Isn't is funny how so many Trans claim they are LESBIAN? Why not claim Het? I could say I'm a gay male INSIDE. Yep, ever since I was born. Would the gay male community accept me? Should I be upset? Damn, they look so much more attractive than the hetmales! So here I am, doomed to a life of hetmales, the ill-dressed, uncouth and sloppy rednecks.

This post is just to get you to see through the eyes of those you feel "just don't get it".

When you finally accept yourself.... others will.



sophia37 -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 11:18:08 AM)

This is a community that says all sorts of things. One part of this thread that reminded me of that was the self medicating part. You know PAHunkBoy? Well not too long ago he had a thread where he admitted to self medicating and Man! Did he get his ass kicked. It was another multi paged thread like this one.

My point is not that he got his ass kicked so much. The point I'm making is, PAHunkBoy took the beating, probably learned some stuff, also stood his ground and here he is still! So I encourage you Lindsey, to stick with us. We cant always just post nice nice things. You'll have to hold your breath perhaps at every new post. It could be the poster who wants to trash you. But eh. Take it for what it is, or skim it then come back later. But do try and stcik it out until its less stressful for you. It takes some time with a new group of people. You have to get a feel for things around here.

PaHunkboy for one, has certainly been good to me over the years with his insight. And yet, sure he says off the wall things sometimes. So? Dont we all? And the other posters who you may find friction with, are also worthy of being heard. Because somewhere in their words, there is something to be thought about. I too would rather only hear good news. But I wont shy away from the difficult. And that is truly one of the things in life you'll have to come to terms with.

I wish you all the best. And look up the poster called Lady Ellen. She's excellent to talk to. I give you my personal recomendation of her worth. 



LadyEllen -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 1:57:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

I wish you all the best. And look up the poster called Lady Ellen. She's excellent to talk to. I give you my personal recomendation of her worth. 


Well, what can I say? Thank you for such an endorsement - I hope I can live up to it - and that I'm online enough to talk to!

E



angelikaJ -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 2:16:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong


Consider this.. guys well do ANYTHING to gain access to the lesbian community for a free show. Isn't is funny how so many Trans claim they are LESBIAN? Why not claim Het? I could say I'm a gay male INSIDE. Yep, ever since I was born. Would the gay male community accept me? Should I be upset? Damn, they look so much more attractive than the hetmales! So here I am, doomed to a life of hetmales, *the ill-dressed, uncouth and sloppy rednecks.



So, if I understand you correctly, you actually believe that guys will go for gender reassignment surgery just to get a free show from lesbians?

Hmmmmm....

....nope, don't buy it!


*(that just strikes me as profoundly sad.)




DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 2:28:18 PM)

I will say one insight that's occured to me. I know more about being a woman than ANY natal woman who would tell me I'm "not a real woman". Those people are defining me based on the genitals I was born with (and don't even have anymore), and there's SO MUCH MORE to being a woman than a vagina. A woman isn't defined by her vagina! It's a state of mind, a feeling in your heart, the essence of your soul. Women who think people like me aren't real women obviously don't grasp that, they only look at the physical. Absolutely pathetic. I'm more of a real woman than they could ever hope to be as long as they hold such slanted and shallow views. I'm sure more of a real woman than LotusSong and her twisted way of thinking.



LadyEllen -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 2:29:09 PM)

Well Angelika - I'll tell you the (perhaps apocyphal) story related to me by a lesbian friend.

It all goes back to a committee I was selected for - LGBT, advising the police. At the first meeting of the group was me, another TS woman, several lesbians and gay guys.

Now, the other TS woman didnt pass so well and wasnt so confident as me. I got into a conversation with the lesbian women there and the subject soon turned to their avowed and unanimous dislike of TS women. Yes, they were totally taken in by me and thought me one of them - whatever other reason would I be on the committee after all? Yes, they were all totally stunned and embarassed when they were informed why I was there.

But, we all became friends. Sometime later it was explained to me by one of them that her dislike for TS women stemmed from an incident at university when a supposed TS woman had pulled one of her friends (a lesbian) and taken her back to the dorms to do whatever it is that young lesbian women at universities do. The supposed TS woman then raped the lesbian woman several times.

The problem is that the genuine will always be associated with the false and with the worst of whatever group. Just as with Lindsey, the premise she is putting forward is that all lesbians are horrid, because some have proven to be.

And when as here, there is no means of checking identities and we have the situation where trans is lumped without distinction into one, suspicions will always be rife that every trans woman is a male seeking one thing.

E



LadyEllen -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 2:41:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

I will say one insight that's occured to me. I know more about being a woman than ANY natal woman who would tell me I'm "not a real woman". Those people are defining me based on the genitals I was born with (and don't even have anymore), and there's SO MUCH MORE to being a woman than a vagina. A woman isn't defined by her vagina! It's a state of mind, a feeling in your heart, the essence of your soul. Women who think people like me aren't real women obviously don't grasp that, they only look at the physical. Absolutely pathetic. I'm more of a real woman than they could ever hope to be as long as they hold such slanted and shallow views. I'm sure more of a real woman than LotusSong and her twisted way of thinking.


you are so missing the point

there is no such thing as a real woman - only persons who happen to identify as and/or get identified as women

work on being a rounded person first; the rest will follow

debating who is or isnt a real woman is a pointless effort that hurts you and others - because no one, yourself included, can ever be that real woman that is proposed

E



thishereboi -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 2:42:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666

I will say one insight that's occured to me. I know more about being a woman than ANY natal woman who would tell me I'm "not a real woman". Those people are defining me based on the genitals I was born with (and don't even have anymore), and there's SO MUCH MORE to being a woman than a vagina. A woman isn't defined by her vagina! It's a state of mind, a feeling in your heart, the essence of your soul. Women who think people like me aren't real women obviously don't grasp that, they only look at the physical. Absolutely pathetic. I'm more of a real woman than they could ever hope to be as long as they hold such slanted and shallow views. I'm sure more of a real woman than LotusSong and her twisted way of thinking.


Have you even read the replies on this thread? Did you read the post you were replying to in this case? If so, where did I even mention someone being natural or not? Maybe the problem isn't your transition or whether or not you see yourself as a women. Maybe people are just sick of your attitude. I know I am.



thishereboi -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 2:44:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen


there is no such thing as a real woman - only persons who happen to identify as and/or get identified as women

E


That may be true, but you are more of a lady than I ever will be and I think your awesome.



angelikaJ -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 2:44:58 PM)

Lady Ellen,

I appreciate your sharing that story.
I wish I could say that it surprised me.
Sadly, it does not.

People who's desire it is to harm, will harm.
There are predators.

But there are predators among gay men and heterosexual women...and non-trans lesbians.

It is an interesting point of view isn't it: that all [lesbian] trans women are seeking to harm.




DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 2:53:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Have you even read the replies on this thread? Did you read the post you were replying to in this case? If so, where did I even mention someone being natural or not? Maybe the problem isn't your transition or whether or not you see yourself as a women. Maybe people are just sick of your attitude. I know I am.


Yes I've read hte replies in this thread. I have taken a lot of the words to heart. I don't even know why you think I was talking to you, because I wasn't. I'm also not gonna spam the board replying to every individual message, especially when several have messaged me personally and struck up private conversations with me. My statement was to those, especially those like LotusSong, who deem me "unworthy of being called a real woman". After talking to several people privately and getting a lot of helpful advice and insight and support, that is a particular insight that occured to me that pertains to the original topic of the thread.

If my feeling that I'm more of a woman than those who don't consider me a real woman just because of a physical birth defect I USED to have is making you tired of my attitude, perhaps you need to look inside yourself and take a bit of spiritual inventory.



thishereboi -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 3:06:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamGoddess666


Yes I've read hte replies in this thread. I have taken a lot of the words to heart. I don't even know why you think I was talking to you, because I wasn't.
Because your post said (in reply to thishereboi)



JstAnotherSub -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 3:12:08 PM)

there is no definition of a real woman.....if you know of one, please share it....

there are mean women, nice ones, feminine ones, tomboyish ones, dainty ones, rough around the edges ones, ones who live for make up, ones who wouldnt be caught dead in it, ones who love their sexuality, ones who deny their sexuality, one who are caring and giving, ones who are cold and bitter......

there is no real woman........there are many kinds of women.  you are not special or unique just because you contibue to claim to be the real woman of all real women.   you do come off as a very very bitter and defensive human being though.

notice no one has jumped on any of the other tg women that have posted to this thread.....examine their attitudes and compare them to yours.  maybe then you can see that it is nothing to do with your being or not being a real woman.  it is all about your attitude.

if you can not see that, i suspect you have a lonely bitter life ahead of you.  it is your choice.

im officially done trying to get my point across....there are many here that are wiser and much better at expressing it than me.  listen to them, and actually try to hear what they are saying.

good luck.



DreamGoddess666 -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 3:18:22 PM)

Hey you wanted me to get a backbone. I finally did and said what I had to say, and you don't like what I have to say? Make up your mind!



stella41b -> RE: Lesbians: Why do you hate transsexuals so much? (5/24/2009 3:20:09 PM)

A woman is a mature female. How she became a mature female is merely one point in her journey through life.



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