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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/26/2009 12:08:04 PM

oceanwinds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

It doesn't matter if she feels it's sexual or not. It doesn't matter if she feels it isn't cheating. As long as she does something that she knows you consider cheating, she's damaging the relationship. If this is more important to her than the relationship with the op she needs to state that. If the relationship is more important than indulging herself, then she doesn't do it.

She can't have her cake and eat it too.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/26/2009 4:03:27 PM

greeneyedreamer

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quote:

I am a bisexual female. I have loving relationships with females without it being sexual. I have showered with other females without it being sexual. I have not, however, "made out" with another female without it being "sexual." For me, once the "making out" begins, it's "sexual," no two ways about it

luci

GOtta agree here.... but why the Rules of nothing sexual with another woman without you? hmmm sounds a bit insecure to me.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/27/2009 1:52:39 AM

LAgirlsub

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luci [/quote]

GOtta agree here.... but why the Rules of nothing sexual with another woman without you? hmmm sounds a bit insecure to me.
[/quote]

To the OP and the girl in question if she's popping in on this thread....but particularly to you OP...I'm a gay woman and guess what? Take away all this nonsense sometimes that is bdsm and the girl you are with is interested in women - that's right sexually and if you continue to force her not to acknowledge her feelings - you will end up on the short end of the stick. She will pursue those feelings in time and either you discuss it, you stop not only being insecure about it but forcing her to be defensive and you can either have a better relationship with her or in time, likely it won't work out.

Whatever she is feeling - be it bisexual or something else - forcing her not to be who she is will not work. And personally, this is one of those areas that I truly don't understand in this whole bdsm world. If she is someone you care about, you'd get this and not force her away from her feelings. But if all you care about is control, you won't succeed here.

And I'll agree with what was said already - and if the girl in question is reading this - I don't get 'turned on' in the gym (OK it would have to be some very special situation...she's just that gorgeous) but are you kidding me? Soaping up and all the rest? Am I breathing? Of course it's sexual. It's not about being in control...it's about how you feel and it's fine what you feel whatever it is.

If you read this...I think babe you're being defensive for more reasons then upsetting your male partner. You sound very young so maybe in time you'll sort it out.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/27/2009 5:02:36 AM

Drifa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: greeneyedreamer
GOtta agree here.... but why the Rules of nothing sexual with another woman without you? hmmm sounds a bit insecure to me.

Whoa there! This isn't about "insecurity". What a completely dismissive response! This is about limits and pre-agreed conditions being violated.

The OP has a pre-negotiated condition that there is not to be sexual contact between his sub and anyone else when he is not there. This is (a) not at all uncommon and (b) it's HIS LIMIT.

You just have to respect other people's limits, whether you are a sub or a dom! Just like you don't expect a dom to whip out a cane and lay to on a sub who has a hard limit of "no caning", a sub doesn't get to break the dom's limit of "no sexual contact unless the dom is also present".

Not everyone is comfortable with their sexual partner having sex with other people. Some people, even kinky people, are very firm about monogamy. My Lady doesn't allow me to have sex with other people at my own whim... it's uncommon that I do have sex with anyone else, and it's something she, as the dominant, gets to decide because of the way our relationship dynamic works and it's what we both agreed upon beforehand. The reasons WHY we have this rule in my relationship are many, but whatever the reasons, I agreed to these rules!

There ARE good reasons for this limit in my relationship. Having my Lady present if I am playing with someone else means it's a person she approved. It means she is there to enforce my limits so that someone else may not dish out more than I really want to take. My Lady might enjoy watching a little humiliation and forced service from me as well. As the submissive, I appreciate being cherished enough that she doesn't allow others to do me harm by ignoring my limits. I appreciate the chance to serve her, to please her, to turn her on, and knowing she is watching, even if I am having to struggle to submit to whatever is happening, is the best thing in the world.

The OP has a valid beef. I think he should dump the sub and look for one who doesn't push boundaries, who obeys, and who isn't such a brat. There's plenty of 'em out there.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/27/2009 9:36:25 PM

greeneyedreamer

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quote:

Whoa there! This isn't about "insecurity". What a completely dismissive response! This is about limits and pre-agreed conditions being violated.

The OP has a pre-negotiated condition that there is not to be sexual contact between his sub and anyone else when he is not there. This is (a) not at all uncommon and (b) it's HIS LIMIT.

You are right... i was in a particularly negative mood. BUT she is trying to tell him something. And he is looking at it as she is disobeying his orders. She is trying to tell him she wants this woman and get his blessing. Ok so they didn't agree to these rules. She wants a woman. Period. She'll do it eventually and if he cares about her, he'll let her, give her his blessing and get it over with. IMHO.... I am usually not that brash... My apologies...

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/27/2009 10:17:38 PM

sweetsub1957

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarriorKitten

that's the thing I AM IN CONTROL.

Because this is clearly evident in the tone of your post and all...

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarriorKitten

PERIOD. END OF SENTENCE. I CAN CONTROL MYSELF.

If you could control yourself, you would not be yapping up a whiny storm when told to do something by your D-type. That's where your control is meant to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarriorKitten

I really dont have sexual feelings towards my sister friend.

Trying to redefine a specific word in order to covertly undermine the order of your D-type is dishonest and ugly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarriorKitten

I have a group of friends and we're just about that and I feel they were there first and they willl be there after and if people can't understand that then O FUCKING WELLL;

I understand perfectly. Have you told your D-type that you don't prioritize her above your plaything friends? Have you taken the time to take that very fact into consideration as to how it speaks as to your ability to be a sub?

Exactly! What NihilusZero said.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/27/2009 10:25:04 PM

sweetsub1957

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WildThought,

i am a bi female and i have been in many loving, non-sexual relationships with women.....we've hung out together, hugged each other, been room-mates, seen each other naked, shared a locker room, etc. BUT, the minute we start sticking our tongues down each other's throats or soaping up each other's naked bodies.....it's sexual. There's no way of getting around it. At least that's how it is with me.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 12:53:52 AM

RavenMuse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: greeneyedreamer
Ok so they didn't agree to these rules. She wants a woman. Period. She'll do it eventually and if he cares about her, he'll let her, give her his blessing and get it over with.

If He cares about having a D/s relationship then He is likely to show her the door... I agree that from the attitude shown she is likely to do it anyway which means there is no D/s... nor respect... nor trust..... to My way of thinking He isn't even loosing a relationship as nothing that makes a relationship worth having seems to be there!

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 1:52:41 AM

NihilusZero

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Well...this thread brought about some reverse-logic commentary while I was gone for the day:

quote:

ORIGINAL: greeneyedreamer

GOtta agree here.... but why the Rules of nothing sexual with another woman without you? hmmm sounds a bit insecure to me.

You not only just rendered every decision by a D-type to his/her sub as a degree of insecurity, but you effectively render every concept of fidelity and/or monogamy as a level of insecurity.

If this thread had been in the "Polyamorous" forum, then maybe this silliness might have some minor topical relevance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LAgirlsub

To the OP and the girl in question if she's popping in on this thread....but particularly to you OP...I'm a gay woman and guess what? Take away all this nonsense sometimes that is bdsm and the girl you are with is interested in women - that's right sexually and if you continue to force her not to acknowledge her feelings - you will end up on the short end of the stick. She will pursue those feelings in time and either you discuss it, you stop not only being insecure about it but forcing her to be defensive and you can either have a better relationship with her or in time, likely it won't work out.

Whatever she is feeling - be it bisexual or something else - forcing her not to be who she is will not work. And personally, this is one of those areas that I truly don't understand in this whole bdsm world. If she is someone you care about, you'd get this and not force her away from her feelings. But if all you care about is control, you won't succeed here.

And yet another argument against any form of fidelity and/or monogamy. Your argument is plainly absurd. It states, plainly, that anyone who has involved themselves in any relationship is free to do whatever they wish so long as they can file it under "being what I feel I am".

Furthermore, you absolve of responsibility the person who is violating expected rules of the relationship and then place the burden on the other individual in said relationship because they are not permitting leniency for the other person to effectively go back on any disclosure of expectation.

This isn't a matter about sexuality. It's a matter of honesty and integrity. And, you are partially right in the sense that expecting that honesty and integrity from someone who likes keeping this relationship carte blanche you argue for wouldn't be a successful endeavor.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 5/28/2009 1:56:54 AM >

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 1:54:49 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: greeneyedreamer
She wants a woman. Period. She'll do it eventually and if he cares about her, he'll let her, give her his blessing and get it over with. IMHO....

I think you've wandered into the wrong fora. Manipulative feminism is down the hall, 2nd door on the right.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 2:18:34 AM

islandgyrl

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I agree with Drifa's post above. The agreement was no sexual contact without both parties present. It is not uncommon. I had this arrangement with my beloved husband. It worked wonderfully for us for many years. Unhappy and want to renegotiate? Talk about it but don't be surprised if you're kicked to the curb. Kissing is sexual. I am bi-sexual and would never kiss another woman unless my intentions were to be intimate. I don't mean a kiss and a hug hello or goodbye. Someone is treading on thin ice here!

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 2:25:56 AM

NormalOutside

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Sex could even be unsexual, by the OP's definition. If "sexual" means you're aroused, then absolutely, sex can be unsexual.

That said, if you have a problem with your submissive even saying hello to another girl, then put your foot down and stop being a pussy. You're in charge. If she doesn't like the rules, she can speak to you about it, or ask for release.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 9:32:50 AM

sweetsub1957

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luci

GOtta agree here.... but why the Rules of nothing sexual with another woman without you? hmmm sounds a bit insecure to me.

i don't think it sounds insecure, it sounds like a perfectly reasonable rule to me. Plus, she asked her Dom if it was okay and He said "No." Why did she even ask if she had no intention of following His rules? It sounds to me like she had no intention of really doing what He said and she is trying to Top from the bottom.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LAgirlsub

To the OP and the girl in question if she's popping in on this thread....but particularly to you OP...I'm a gay woman and guess what? Take away all this nonsense sometimes that is bdsm and the girl you are with is interested in women - that's right sexually and if you continue to force her not to acknowledge her feelings - you will end up on the short end of the stick. She will pursue those feelings in time and either you discuss it, you stop not only being insecure about it but forcing her to be defensive and you can either have a better relationship with her or in time, likely it won't work out.

Whatever she is feeling - be it bisexual or something else - forcing her not to be who she is will not work. And personally, this is one of those areas that I truly don't understand in this whole bdsm world. If she is someone you care about, you'd get this and not force her away from her feelings. But if all you care about is control, you won't succeed here.

And I'll agree with what was said already - and if the girl in question is reading this - I don't get 'turned on' in the gym (OK it would have to be some very special situation...she's just that gorgeous) but are you kidding me? Soaping up and all the rest? Am I breathing? Of course it's sexual. It's not about being in control...it's about how you feel and it's fine what you feel whatever it is.

If you read this...I think babe you're being defensive for more reasons then upsetting your male partner. You sound very young so maybe in time you'll sort it out.

Okay, so she's interested in women. There's no problem there. He never said she couldn't be bi or have sex with a woman. He said she couldn't do it without Him there. That's no different than saying she can't have sex with another man without Him there. Sex is sex.

i think expecting her Dom to bend to her wishes and allow her to get sexual with anyone when He's not around is the same as saying she should be in control and Topping Him. As far as this all being about control, i thought BDSM is about control.....consensual control. By consenting to the D/s dynamic, she gave Him control. she can feel however she wants to & if He wants to discuss it T/they can, but she gave Him control and now she's fighting against it. That's the bottom line.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 10:12:48 AM

Arpig

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I think I will finally weigh in. To me it seems really very staightforward. She (the "submissive") has supposedly agreed to a D/s relationship in which she is expected to submit to his (the "dominant") decisions. She doesn't like one of those decisions and so must either suck it up, or attempt to renegotiate. If the renegotiation does not go her way, then she must either, again, suck it up, or leave. If she were my sub I think I would just restate my rule and if she were not willing to abide by it I would just show her the door. The crap she is trying to pull wouldn't be accepted in a vanilla relationship, and certainly has no place in a supposedly D/s relationship.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 1:14:17 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LAgirlsub

To the OP and the girl in question if she's popping in on this thread....but particularly to you OP...I'm a gay woman and guess what? Take away all this nonsense sometimes that is bdsm and the girl you are with is interested in women - that's right sexually and if you continue to force her not to acknowledge her feelings - you will end up on the short end of the stick. She will pursue those feelings in time and either you discuss it, you stop not only being insecure about it but forcing her to be defensive and you can either have a better relationship with her or in time, likely it won't work out.

Whatever she is feeling - be it bisexual or something else - forcing her not to be who she is will not work. And personally, this is one of those areas that I truly don't understand in this whole bdsm world. If she is someone you care about, you'd get this and not force her away from her feelings. But if all you care about is control, you won't succeed here.

And I'll agree with what was said already - and if the girl in question is reading this - I don't get 'turned on' in the gym (OK it would have to be some very special situation...she's just that gorgeous) but are you kidding me? Soaping up and all the rest? Am I breathing? Of course it's sexual. It's not about being in control...it's about how you feel and it's fine what you feel whatever it is.

If you read this...I think babe you're being defensive for more reasons then upsetting your male partner. You sound very young so maybe in time you'll sort it out.

He isn't stopping her, they explore other people together. I find it odd that a dom who has this rule is being called insecure for not letting his sub play with someone outside his presence. This is very common from what I have seen here.

Please re-read the post, he isn't keeping her from exploring this side of herself, he doesn't want her doing it outside his presence. As for the part about letting her explore? She entered the relationship. If she were bi-sexual and entered a relationhip with a man or a woman who sought monogamy, would you tell that man or woman that they need to accept her desire or "need" to be with the other sex because that's who she was?

There is a big difference between bisexuality and promiscuity. You are encouraging the latter.

Edited to Add: While I finished reading the posts, I found what seems to be a disturbing theme. If a dom or any man were to be doing this with another woman, he would be slammed all over the room. It seems like the "girl on girl" action is ok with so many.

Lagirlsub, greeneyedreamer, why would you suggest he just accept her desire to have sex with others? Would you be so accepting if she were asking to shower with her male friends? No one has to accept anything outside of what they agreed to. Usually, it is the subs who are put in that position, but when it is a dom, the advice should remain the same.

This young girl's behavior is inappropriate. It's inappropriate with her dominant, her friends, and her attitude here. I know another young girl who responds in much the same way as this one did, with cursing and the "I'll do what I want" mantra. So here is another one who wants to do what she wants, when she wants, with who she wants, and have no responsibility for the consequences, and figures if she "redefines" what they are doing, it makes all the difference in the world.

Seems like most of us here are calling bullshit. To the OP, I'm sure there is someone out there who will have respect not only for you, but for herself and for the relationship. The sooner you start looking, the happier you will be.

< Message edited by LafayetteLady -- 5/28/2009 1:30:00 PM >

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 1:32:02 PM

MeganMoran

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I think in this case its emotional, and she should not be doing it, However I have been forced and commanded to do things with others and I do them to please my Master however I have no emotional connection and do not get aroused by the act itself.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 1:47:53 PM

Vendaval

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WildThought,

It is not very relevant whether or the other women on these boards can make out with another woman and have it not be sexual. What is relevant is specific to your situation and the trust/intimacy issues.

Would you be comfortable with whatever happened between the 3 of you if all were present? Do you have desires toward her friend? What is specifically making you so uncomfortable?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WildThought
It has not been a limit for me in the past. Like, we are at a bar together and she is making out with a girl and I am grabbing both of their hair. That is totally hot, however in this situation. Its a best friend, her previous previous relationship with a guy they were all intimate. I actually totally trust her on her not doing anything, but when I told her that is so sexual, she keeps claiming its not. I already made a decison, however like to hear others advice and thoughts. Thanks!

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 3:14:57 PM

DavanKael

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However, I am very dubious that making out with someone you love can be construed as a non-sexual act. How is it possible not to get turned on in that situaltion? Anyway, wanted hear from woman - especially bi on this topic. Can you be in a loving relationship with a female friend, make out, maybe even shower together and have that not turn you on and therefore not be sexual? It sounds crazy to me, but I have testosterone and a penis and feel the need to double check.

Ummm, yeah, follow what that testosterone and that penis are telling you in this instance.
Davan

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 4:09:41 PM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael
It sounds crazy to me, but I have testosterone and a penis and feel the need to double check.

Ummm, yeah, follow what that testosterone and that penis are telling you in this instance.
Davan

You totally just ruined my next big angle.

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RE: Two girls who love each other making out and shower... - 5/28/2009 5:52:57 PM

ShaktiSama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WildThought
However, I am very dubious that making out with someone you love can be construed as a non-sexual act.

Yep. She's full of crap. It's pretty common nowadays for heterosexual girls to pretend to be bisexual in public, presumably in order to titillate men. But if she's doing it without a male audience, it's self-motivated and there's no way in hell it's not sexual. Sounds like this case of "sister love" is pretty much plain and simple "lesbo love". She's presumably trying to get you used to the idea that she "makes out" with her little friend so that she can tell you "oops we went down on each other" later.

P.S. I will also ditto the posters who say that stumbling across your "magical girl on girl feelings" is not an excuse for violating your negotiated limits, nor for any other sort of infidelity in a relationship. The rules are NOT different for bisexuals.

< Message edited by ShaktiSama -- 5/28/2009 5:58:27 PM >

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