Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (Full Version)

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Fitznicely -> Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 8:24:45 AM)

Following on from a thread where the topic wasn't really relevant:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

I don't edge play, but I do support others  privileges of playing how they want, as long as it's in private, in their own homes or other private location, and not a club where the club could get shut down.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

Topping: That's some pretty serious, dangerous edgeplay. It's my understanding that even among RACK-players, being stoned out of your tree is pretty much a no-no.

Look at it this way: If you're assessing the risks and don't take the altered perceptions and priorities that drugs of pretty much any kind inevitably bring with them seriously....well, if you find that acceptible when doing edge-play, I, for one, don't wanna play with you.



All the accumulated knowledge I have on drugs in sceneplay is that their use is frowned upon, to say the least.

Granted, this is mainly from a public play, club point of view where the place can get shut down if drugs are involved.

What I believe though, is that even in private, using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no.

Aside from my natural aversion to fucking my head up with unnatural and dangerous chemicals anyway, I'm of the belief that I, as Dom should remain in control - even more so in edgeplay, where the risk of accident or at least damage is far higher than, say, a regular flogging or bondage session. I can't do that if I'm off my ttis on something.

Further to that, I prefer my sub to stay straight. I assume that if we're to indulge in RACK or edge-play then we're looking to induce a state of - whatever you want to call it - subspace, euphoria, flying, endorphin-high...I don't want that spoiled, or brought on falsely by outside chemicals.

So, ARE there any hard and fast, generally accepted taboos, even when it comes to edgeplay?

WOULD you scene on drugs?

Have you scened on drugs and did it enhance or detract from your experience?




sirsholly -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 8:34:19 AM)

quote:

WOULD you scene on drugs?

Have you scened on drugs and did it enhance or detract from your experience?
if i need to be on drugs to enhance a scene, i am with the wrong partner 




beargonewild -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 8:36:14 AM)

Speaking for myself only, I find that drugs combined with scening is too high of a risk that I am comfortable taking. I know from past experience how warped my perception and judgement gets and being wiser has me acting accordingly. Many of my friends who I do play with, refuse to play with a sub who is under the influence of mind altering substances, and often that will include alcohol consumption. 




LadyPact -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 8:37:11 AM)

It may be frowned upon today, but many folks can tell you that wasn't always the case.  It did used to be quite common.

I'm not here to be anyone's mother or try to tell them what they can or can not do during play.  That would make Me a complete hypocrite.  Can the combination be dangerous?  Yes, but I don't think anyone needs Me to tell them that.  They probably already know that on their own.

As an edge player and someone who aligns more with RACK than SSC, I can tell you that knowing those risks is important to Me.   Those risks do in fact, increase when there are outside influences that change perception.  There are some forms of play that I won't even consider engaging in if I'm taking something for a head cold, such as fire, needles, or any sort of blood play.

Unfortunate as it is to say, I have reason to think this thread will be pulled for being against TOS.  However, I'm hoping that it won't be.  This topic can be a serious issue for those who play and talking about the dangers in this thread might just allow someone to see things in a different light after reading the opinions of those who will respond to it.




ShaharThorne -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 8:37:45 AM)

In New Orleans, the scene was no drugs allowed due to the rules. I followed those rules.

Scening on drugs is dangerous and shows a lack of control. If I want to play, I do so before I take my meds. This way, no one takes advantage of me on both sides of the scene.




Fitznicely -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 8:46:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Unfortunate as it is to say, I have reason to think this thread will be pulled for being against TOS.


Yanno, I really should read 'em one day.




GYPZYQUEEN -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 8:48:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely


quote:

So, ARE there any hard and fast, generally accepted taboos, even when it comes to edgeplay?

WOULD you scene on drugs?

Have you scened on drugs and did it enhance or detract from your experience?


OP:

RULES, ideas,protocols etc can be set forth by RACK etc..and can be interpreted to mean dif things to dif ppl ( wheather a public dungeon or in private)
This is where..it can get tricky or  cause problems..
I mean look at he BIBLE..[:-]
SO then RISK can mean many things to dif ppl..awareness can mean dif levels..consent can too as well as the kink..
 
**generally accepted taboos?? in public  I am sure..
in private each person is responsible for them self..
I think you are concerned as am I from the thread we were in about a person's safety / opinions of ppl doing as they wish in a scene.
WE HAVE NO CONTROL over another's scene only our own.
We can hope for another's safety and can feel opinions about the danger of their drug use and offer info. but have no say in what they do in the end.

*I WOULD NEVER NEVER NEVER do a scene on drugs!
 
*I NEVER HAVE and I can say I  send bad boys home who come to me on weed or even a beer...and have let subs go who inbibe too much
I have also waited a while when a sub was on new medication.
 
I in no way want the MIND altered before I START ALTERING IT... to the extent that I do....
MINDS FIRST FOR ME
 
I have met some who feel drugs enhance their life..so be it..I do not need it or them "enhancing  mine....for reasons all my own just as they have their's
 . I do not judge them I simply choose to not be around them
 
 
GQ[&:]

...




LadyPact -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 8:50:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Unfortunate as it is to say, I have reason to think this thread will be pulled for being against TOS.


Yanno, I really should read 'em one day.


Eleven has mod spanked Me for answering such threads before.  I'm sure it will happen again.  I'm hoping it won't happen this time.




Apocalypso -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 9:37:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely
All the accumulated knowledge I have on drugs in sceneplay is that their use is frowned upon, to say the least.


Hmm.  This could be entirely different in the US than the UK (although I suspect it isn't) but the use of drugs in sceneplay isn't all that uncommon in my experience.  Most of those who do so don't go round shouting about it, for obvious reasons.  And are actually pretty wary of those who are overly vocal.

quote:

Granted, this is mainly from a public play, club point of view where the place can get shut down if drugs are involved.


Agreed, totally.  It's entirely unreasonable to expect others to take legal risks because of your personal lifestyle choices.  On top of that, public clubs are simply not a sensible enviroment for this.  And there's far too much chance of playing with someone not aware you're on drugs, which doesn't give them the chance to make their own informed choices on the subject.

quote:

What I believe though, is that even in private, using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no.


I'd query your classification of what are "hard" drugs here.  There's a world of difference between pot and meth.  And, I'd argue that, to all intents and purposes, alcohol should be considered a hard drug in this discussion.  Even a drug as minor as caffeine can have a real effect.  Ok, a cup of coffee before playing isn't likely to make much of a difference.  But somebody who's been knocking back the Red Bull all day is going to be pretty jittery.

Your method of classification really seems to come down to illegal versus legal drugs.  Which is fine.  And it is the case that the illegality of pot is one of its major risks.  But there are other  BDSM activities that skirt the boundaries of legality at best, yet there isn't anywhere near the same hostility to them within the community.

quote:

Aside from my natural aversion to fucking my head up with unnatural and dangerous chemicals anyway, I'm of the belief that I, as Dom should remain in control - even more so in edgeplay, where the risk of accident or at least damage is far higher than, say, a regular flogging or bondage session. I can't do that if I'm off my ttis on something.


That's entirely valid.  A lot of it is going to come down to experience.  Anyone considering playing on drugs needs to be very aware of the effects it will have on their body.  (Like a lot of stuff, a lot of it comes down to experience).

And yes, I would agree absolutely that many edgeplay activities will become simply too high risk to combine with any kind of mind altering substance.  I'd strongly advise against the combination of cutting and drugs, for similar reasons that I wouldn't go to a tattoist who was high.

I would however query your assumption in the other thread that anyone who plays on drugs is automatically participating in edgeplay.  This weekend, millions of vanilla people are going to go out, get stoned or drunk and fuck each other.    I'm dubious that every single one of those is indulging in edgeplay.

quote:

Further to that, I prefer my sub to stay straight. I assume that if we're to indulge in RACK or edge-play then we're looking to induce a state of - whatever you want to call it - subspace, euphoria, flying, endorphin-high...I don't want that spoiled, or brought on falsely by outside chemicals.


Entirely reasonable as a personal decision.  I'd question whether the use of outside chemicals makes it "false" however.  Does using music to enhance a scene make the scene less real?  Costumes?  Roleplaying?  I don't see how one external stimulus is the only one that isn't 'real'.

quote:

So, ARE there any hard and fast, generally accepted taboos, even when it comes to edgeplay?


Universally accepted, no.  Although this subject does generally stir up a fair bit of hysteria, often irrational in my view.  In terms of risk, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it's more dangerous than breathplay.  In terms of legality, as I mentioned before, there's a sizeable number of BDSM activities that are problematic.  But I'd be prepared to place a bet that, if this was a thread about one of them, there wouldn't be the question of whether the thread would be allowed to stay up.  I think that speaks for itself.

quote:

WOULD you scene on drugs?

Have you scened on drugs and did it enhance or detract from your experience?
Considering how close I may already be skirting to the ToC with this post, I'd rather keep the discussion purely theoretical for now...




leadership527 -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 9:40:50 AM)

Man, if I could figure out how to add someone as a "favorite", I would so be adding you Apocalypso. Hard to believe I'm a computer geek. I can add random strangers that my stupid search thingie turns up, but not specific individuals that I find on these forums. The button just isn't there *sighs*.




Asherdelampyr -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 9:47:49 AM)

click on thier profile, there is a box for add to favorite lists
though a freind request seems less messy




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 9:49:00 AM)

quote:

What I believe though, is that even in private, using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no.


im with you except that pot thing.  imho, although not necessary by any means, it is no more than having a glass of wine. 

but then im also aware some would think having wine before "pick your word for intimate contact and insert here" is wrong also.
 
we all have to be able to wake up and look our selves in the eyes and be ok with what we see there.




GreedyTop -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 9:54:33 AM)

Brilliant post., Apocalypso.... 




leadership527 -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 9:58:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
click on thier profile, there is a box for add to favorite lists
though a freind request seems less messy

Yeah, that's what you'd think, isn't it? But at least for me, I have a "Invite to Friends" button but I cannot find the cursed "Add to Favorites" button. Am I being stupid in more ways than one today?




GreedyTop -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:01:00 AM)

I saw a favorite button right above the email box.. dunno if thats what ya need...




Asherdelampyr -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:07:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr
click on thier profile, there is a box for add to favorite lists
though a freind request seems less messy

Yeah, that's what you'd think, isn't it? But at least for me, I have a "Invite to Friends" button but I cannot find the cursed "Add to Favorites" button. Am I being stupid in more ways than one today?


What browser are you using? I use Google Chrome and Firefox and have more buttons on one than the other.
open CM with ie, see if it is there then, or it could be the checkbox, depending on the view.




leadership527 -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:13:42 AM)

*laughs* Yup, I'm being stupid today. It was a checkbox. I kept scanning for a pushbutton. Wow am I ever going to get some favorites going today!




Fitznicely -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:14:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso
I'd query your classification of what are "hard" drugs here.  There's a world of difference between pot and meth.  And, I'd argue that, to all intents and purposes, alcohol should be considered a hard drug in this discussion.



Point taken and yes, on reflection, I was wrong to omit alcohol from the list. I count hard drugs as being separate from pot, or there would have been a colon there instead of a comma [:)]

quote:


I would however query your assumption in the other thread that anyone who plays on drugs is automatically participating in edgeplay.  This weekend, millions of vanilla people are going to go out, get stoned or drunk and fuck each other.    I'm dubious that every single one of those is indulging in edgeplay.


Naturally drug taking doesn't equal edgeplay. The point I was making is that if you're going to take drugs as PART or some sort of ENHANCEMENT of edgeplay, I don't wanna play that way, and thought it was commonly accepted protocol that it "wasn't the done thing", ever.

I have to admit more than a little fascination with the responses here...
quote:


I don't see how one external stimulus is the only one that isn't 'real'.


Simply because it's NOT an external stimulus, but an internal one. There aren't many costumes out there which directly alter the physiology of your brain. The feelings,sensations and reactions of a person who's high could be wildly different to someone who is "straight". This is what I was referring to. As GQ said, andI thought I'd included somewhere, I wantto be the one giving the sub those feelings, not some tablet or powder, or pint or two of Special Brew.

quote:

In terms of legality...there's a sizeable number of BDSM activities that are problematic.  But I'd be prepared to place a bet that, if this was a thread about one of them, there wouldn't be the question of whether the thread would be allowed to stay up.  I think that speaks for itself.


so far so good*touches wood*




Toppingfrmbottom -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:17:11 AM)

I never have because I am against using drugs . With the exception of the one time I snorted crank to see what it was like I have never nor will I ever use drugs.  Neither will I choose someone as a partner who's into drugs of any kind.


I would be open to drinking a bit of alcohol  and be a bit tipsy  before play though. For me personally, I don't mean drunk off our asses, but tipsy, and only if My Dom's judgment is still really good when tipsy.


I think it would add to our scene because I know some of my inhibitions are gone, and I am way more  relaxed, and things like exploring anal sex for the first time, for instance won't be as nerve racking as it would be normally.

All though really, I suppose if he got me horny enough, and sub spaced enough, I wouldn't be anxious about exploring anal sex with or with out the drinks.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

Following on from a thread where the topic wasn't really relevant:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toppingfrmbottom

I don't edge play, but I do support others  privileges of playing how they want, as long as it's in private, in their own homes or other private location, and not a club where the club could get shut down.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

Topping: That's some pretty serious, dangerous edgeplay. It's my understanding that even among RACK-players, being stoned out of your tree is pretty much a no-no.

Look at it this way: If you're assessing the risks and don't take the altered perceptions and priorities that drugs of pretty much any kind inevitably bring with them seriously....well, if you find that acceptible when doing edge-play, I, for one, don't wanna play with you.



All the accumulated knowledge I have on drugs in sceneplay is that their use is frowned upon, to say the least.

Granted, this is mainly from a public play, club point of view where the place can get shut down if drugs are involved.

What I believe though, is that even in private, using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no.

Aside from my natural aversion to fucking my head up with unnatural and dangerous chemicals anyway, I'm of the belief that I, as Dom should remain in control - even more so in edgeplay, where the risk of accident or at least damage is far higher than, say, a regular flogging or bondage session. I can't do that if I'm off my ttis on something.

Further to that, I prefer my sub to stay straight. I assume that if we're to indulge in RACK or edge-play then we're looking to induce a state of - whatever you want to call it - subspace, euphoria, flying, endorphin-high...I don't want that spoiled, or brought on falsely by outside chemicals.

So, ARE there any hard and fast, generally accepted taboos, even when it comes to edgeplay?

WOULD you scene on drugs?

Have you scened on drugs and did it enhance or detract from your experience?




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:25:32 AM)

~Fast Reply~

quote:

Original: Fitznicely

What I believe though, is that even in private, using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no.


This one section really jumped out at me from the OP, because it seems like it is more a judgement of behavior than a safety statement. If what you're trying to promote here is -safety-, then why just limit this to "hard" drugs? Alcohol and caffeine are the most frequently used drugs in the US, and who knows how many prescription medications including things like muscle relaxants, pain medications, hypertension medications and mood-adjusters Americans are on at any given time. Add to this the interactions between all these things, and I don't think that there is any reasonable way that a person can say that they're worried about 'safety' and yet ignore these other "inoffensive" drugs.

On the other hand, for those of us who regularly use certain medications or drugs, we get pretty accustomed to how our body responds on those medications. I wouldn't even -think- about doing a piercing on someone when I've been taking Clonidine (a prescription blood-pressure medication. My prescription is PRN... as needed... for when my blood pressure doesn't respond to my daily regimen due to problems with my renal arteries) -- it changes my body's capacity to move/adapt/function and my brain's ability to perceive what I'm doing in such a profound way that it makes it impossible for me to even consider doing delicate, intense work like a piercing... and it impacts my perceptual skills sufficiently that I wouldn't pick up a flogger, either.

On the other hand, one of my prescription medications is THC -- the same substance that is in mari**ana. I take mine in pill form, but it's the same drug. What it does -for me- is keep my body from having excruciating muscle spasms that strike suddenly and are instantly debilitating. Just think about what would happen if I had one of -those spasms- during a session. When I first started taking the medication, there were some perceptual changes that came along with it, but I've learned to adapt over time and recognize my limits. The medication is taken on a daily basis, on a regular schedule, and I know where and how things fit into my life around that medicine. I'd hazard that it's not much different for someone who uses the natural form of THC. If they're accustomed to it, then they probably know what they can and can't do when they use it.

On the other hand, I think what -should- be part of our awareness, on -both- sides of the kneel, is the individual who is -clearly- out of control. The individual who has chosen to drink hirself into a stupor, or smoke until xhe's glassy-eyed and weaving, or who is clearly not functioning and spaced out of hir mind on -anything-. Many times, people who have a tendency to move in those kinds of directions believe that they are, somehow, invincible. They aren't paying attention to their level of impairment, and may not even believe that they -are- impaired. It is up to the other people around them to keep them from making fools of themselves, and potentially damaging someone in the process. If I were on the other end of the kneel from a dominant individual who chose to drink or drug hirself into a stupor, I might beg forgiveness later, but I'll be damned if I'd let hir damage me that evening. Chances are pretty damned good that xhe didn't -want- to damage me, and had no -plan- to damage me... so in letting hir be an ass and damage me, I'm not doing my part in giving good service/submission/bottoming if I let hir show hirself to be an idiot in public -or- private when unable to function.

In the same way, if I am a dominant-type individual and a bottom/submissive or servant comes to me and wants me to play hir, and xhe is -clearly- intoxicated with -anything- to the point where hir judgment is compromised, then I'm an -idiot- if I play hir. I should have the common sense to say "Hey, you're too messed up to do that right now, but let's sit down and talk, and plan on meeting on another day to really -enjoy- that." That's part of what it means, in my mind, to be a dominant-oriented individual. I take responsibility for MY actions (I don't play with people who are too messed up to be responsible for the consent they think they're giving) -and- for the actions of those who put their trust in me to do the right thing.

To me, this whole issue is a complete no-brainer. Of -course- it's dumb to play with someone who is wasted to oblivion and beyond, no matter -what- xhe's wasted on. Of -course- it is important not to use -any- medication or drug, legal or otherwise and play until you -know-, for sure, how your body reacts to that substance. Of course we have a responsibility to ourselves and others to stay out of situations that are going to put us or someone else in danger. The issue is one of applying that, and it seems to be just basic common sense that applying it to ourselves and those we come in contact with should be automatic. There's no need to judge what the person is doing or has done, or specify which things are "OK" and which are "EVIL"... what matters is the individual's behavior, and preventing inappropriate behavior regardless of the reason.

Dame Calla




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