RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (Full Version)

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leadership527 -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:30:04 AM)

I agree Calla:

We should be looking at whether or not the top has adequate self-control for the exercise in question not what chemicals may or may not be contributing to that state. Heck, there's a lot of people that probably shouldn't be doing any of this stuff without a single mind altering chemical in their body.

That being said, the original post was about edge play which I'm going to assume as "edgy to the indvidual doing it". By definition, if you're operating at the edge of your capabilities then degrading those capabilities seems ... well... risky. Of course, not too many think about popping a few beers then driving home -- and that's pretty freakin edgy to me.



Fitznicely -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:33:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

~Fast Reply~

quote:

Original: Fitznicely

What I believe though, is that even in private, using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no.


This one section really jumped out at me from the OP, because it seems like it is more a judgement of behavior than a safety statement. If what you're trying to promote here is -safety-, then why just limit this to "hard" drugs? Alcohol and caffeine are the most frequently used drugs in the US, and who knows how many prescription medications including things like muscle relaxants, pain medications, hypertension medications and mood-adjusters Americans are on at any given time. Add to this the interactions between all these things, and I don't think that there is any reasonable way that a person can say that they're worried about 'safety' and yet ignore these other "inoffensive" drugs.


I didn't pick the drugs listed with any particular agenda in mind. If I sat and listed all the drugs I knew, along with potential scene problems, I'd still be writing the original post now!

As for the rest of your post, I couldn't agree more [:)]



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:44:32 AM)

quote:

Original: leadership527

We should be looking at whether or not the top has adequate self-control for the exercise in question not what chemicals may or may not be contributing to that state. Heck, there's a lot of people that probably shouldn't be doing any of this stuff without a single mind altering chemical in their body.


I agree, and I also agree that edgeplay is a particularly sensitive area. There is a -good- chance, with edgeplay, that someone could get damaged even if the play goes -well-. I am a pretty profound edgeplayer. I still edgeplay, even though my health requires that I do certain things to stay functioning. With that said, because I play with blood, sharp implements, and fire, the chance of a -lot- of people getting hurt if I'm playing and not up to snuff is pretty high. Do I take my medications and play? Yeah, I do... for -some- of my medications. In some cases, the stuff I take actually -prevents- things that could really boggle a scene, so I won't play -without- taking them. (Trust me, you -don't- want me setting things on fire if I'm having a particularly spasmodic night!) Other things cause me to cancel plans if it turns out that I have to take them, because I won't go in with my senses dulled.

Honestly, one thing I don't really understand about the whole drinking/drugs and edgeplay question is "When doing things that are as intensity-driven as edgeplay, what is the -point- of doing something to dampen the intensity???"

The one thing that jumped out at me, though, is the focus on the -top-. Sure, if the top is messed up, it is in everyone's best interests not to participate... but I think the same criteria should go for bottoms who are messed up as well. I wouldn't accept "consent" from someone who wasn't in a clear and lucid frame of mind, and there's no way I'd edgeplay someone in that state -- I don't care -how- long I'd been deprived of piercing someone or setting someone on fire!

Dame Calla



sirsholly -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:45:08 AM)

quote:

There's a world of difference between pot and meth.
If i can point something out here...I have heard it said that pot is as harmless as a glass of wine. Perhaps with some it can be, but with others it is not. Pot contains THC, which is one hell of a powerful pain killer. It would seem to me, in combination with the anti-inhibiting effects of pot, to be a potentially dangerous thing.



antipode -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:50:05 AM)

quote:

using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no


OK, good, then you don't, and hopefully you will realize at some point that what others to is none of your business. Young people especially go through an experimental phase, and drugs are often part of that. MYOB.



SmokingGun82 -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:52:43 AM)

I wouldn't put pot in "hard drugs" myself... I'm not a stoner, but I'm not going to say I've never partaken or will never again.

As for scening/playing/whatever under the influence... to me it depends on multiple factors. If we've both had a couple drinks, it changes the available activities... but doesn't eliminate everything. I wouldn't do breathplay or anything on that level if I was altered, or if she was, but that doesn't mean a spanking is out of the question.

But everyone has their own safety issues, and their own limits on what they'll do. I just remember an amazing night with a fantastic girl that involved mind alteration and spanking... and I can't figure out a way that was a mistake.



Fitznicely -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 10:58:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no


OK, good, then you don't, and hopefully you will realize at some point that what others to is none of your business. Young people especially go through an experimental phase, and drugs are often part of that. MYOB.



Hugely OT, but my profession includes involving myself in other people's problems.

Call me what you will, if I see someone who is in need of a shot of common sense, I don't hold back. Also, in real life, I have a reputation for calling a spade a shovel. It makes me unpopular, sure,but it also brings me a lot of respect.

Respectfully to you, Antipode, I'm gonna carry on doing what I do. Thanks for the input tho.



leadership527 -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 11:24:20 AM)

quote:

Dame Calla said:
Honestly, one thing I don't really understand about the whole drinking/drugs and edgeplay question is "When doing things that are as intensity-driven as edgeplay, what is the -point- of doing something to dampen the intensity???"

*nods* Just relating to my own personal life and not meant to say anything for anyone else, but both Carol and I have given up all intoxicants (well, I do some coffee in the morning). And we don't even do edge play. But honestly, I'm not going to be on my A-game commanding her entire life if I'm drunk/stoned/whatever. And really, where is she going to muster the discipline to obey really hard commands if she's out of it? Discipline and drugs are not exactly known to go together. So even for us who really do nothing like edge play, just the sweeping scope of the d/s we employ contraindicates altered states. YMMV.

quote:

Dame Calla said:
The one thing that jumped out at me, though, is the focus on the -top-. Sure, if the top is messed up, it is in everyone's best interests not to participate... but I think the same criteria should go for bottoms who are messed up as well. I wouldn't accept "consent" from someone who wasn't in a clear and lucid frame of mind, and there's no way I'd edgeplay someone in that state -- I don't care -how- long I'd been deprived of piercing someone or setting someone on fire!

see comment above... BOTH Carol & I. I suppose I could've just stopped myself and not given her any commands, but you're right. It takes two to tango.



sirsholly -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 11:28:23 AM)

quote:

if I see someone who is in need of a shot of common sense, I don't hold back. Also, in real life, I have a reputation for calling a spade a shovel. It makes me unpopular, sure,but it also brings me a lot of respect.
well deserved respect, imo



LaTigresse -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 11:33:14 AM)

Using fast reply.....

I am going to avoid typing a lot that I would prefer to type.....(I am SOOOO not in the mood to converse with anyone in administration today and would end up going the way of our beloved DG) but my own personal opinion is this.

What I would does doesn't matter one iota to anyone other than the person/s I am having fun/playing with. If they are comfortable and I am comfortable, we are the ones taking the risk. It's no one else's business.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 11:39:08 AM)

quote:

Original: Toppingfrmbottom

I would be open to drinking a bit of alcohol and be a bit tipsy before play though. For me personally, I don't mean drunk off our asses, but tipsy, and only if My Dom's judgment is still really good when tipsy.

I think it would add to our scene because I know some of my inhibitions are gone, and I am way more relaxed, and things like exploring anal sex for the first time, for instance won't be as nerve racking as it would be normally.

All though really, I suppose if he got me horny enough, and sub spaced enough, I wouldn't be anxious about exploring anal sex with or with out the drinks.


See, now -this- kind of behavior I'd have a real problem with. To think that someone was participating in an edgy activity with me, and had to "have a drop of liquid courage" to "consent" to do it would have me thinking more than twice, and STILL not participating with that person. See, I can understand being nervous, but if someone is drinking to get past "inhibitions" about certain kinds of play, to -me- they're not really consenting to that play -- they're attempting to bypass their own reticence with a chemical lobotomy that somehow seems like it will make it ok.

I'm perfectly cool about understanding when someone gets on the table to get pierced and has a change of heart right before the needle goes in. I'm impeccable with the words "No" and "Stop". I don't do 'fantasy denial' play, so we immediately remove the whole issue of whether "no" means "no" or we need a special 'safeword' for that. If you tell me you're too nervous, then we're going to stop until you are comfortable to move forward. It may not be tonight -- it may not be in -weeks- or -months- or -ever-... but until that person, completely in his or her right mind, and without artificial chemical 'courage', agrees to participate and follows through without withdrawing consent, I am -not- on board. I think it is unethical to accept someone's "word" that xhe's ok to do something when xhe's had a drug or hypnotherapy or whatever done to remove any inhibitions xhe might have about participating in a given activity.

Dame Calla



oceanwinds -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 11:51:59 AM)

For me to tell someone what they should or shouldnt do would be useless. I have to keep my nose in my business and stop trying to control the world. I do not do edgeplay and am a recovered drug addict of over 30 some years.

No one could save me from my drug usage, and there words feel to the dark void. Only when I came to the realization that I was a drug addict did I do something about it. With that said, I will not play with anyone using any type of drug, including alcohol.



Apocalypso -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 12:06:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely
Point taken and yes, on reflection, I was wrong to omit alcohol from the list. I count hard drugs as being separate from pot, or there would have been a colon there instead of a comma [:)]


*Blinks*  Does that mean you don't consider meth a hard drug or have I misunderstood you?

That aside, I guess the question it comes down to then is how we classify drugs in the first place.  For me, we're best looking at each substance as a unique case.  (It's notable that, in the thread that started this discussion, the drugs in question actually weren't illegal ones).

quote:

Naturally drug taking doesn't equal edgeplay. The point I was making is that if you're going to take drugs as PART or some sort of ENHANCEMENT of edgeplay, I don't wanna play that way, and thought it was commonly accepted protocol that it "wasn't the done thing", ever.


With you completely, assuming that we're talking specifically about the kinds of edgeplay that have a significant risk of physical harm.  Adding drugs to that kind of edgeplay is just far too risky, at least for me.

I doubt that absolutely everybody in BDSM accepts it's not the done thing though.  There's always exceptions.

quote:

Simply because it's NOT an external stimulus, but an internal one. There aren't many costumes out there which directly alter the physiology of your brain. The feelings,sensations and reactions of a person who's high could be wildly different to someone who is "straight".


More like a flogger then?  ;)

On a more general note, in terms of minimising risks, this would be my personal view of what people should be doing if they're considering drugs play at all.

1.  Only within either a relationship or with a very close friend you trust implictly.  The reasons for that are reasonably obvious.

2.  Only by people already used to recreational use of the specific drug in question.  Trying out a new drug and doing BDSM is a bad idea.

3.  A good knowledge of what can go wrong and what to do if it does.  For everybody involved.  Being a dom does not protect anyone from the possibility of having a bad trip.

4.   All consent to be given and negotiation to happen while completely straight.  (Actually, I think that's a good idea even with vanilla sex if mind altering substances are involved).  Absolutely no renegotiation of bounderies to happen while 'under the influence'.  I don't believe that drug users have no control over the actions (if that was the case drunk drivers wouldn't be morally culpable).  However, the kind of negotiation that should be taking place needs to be done with a clear head.

5.  In private only.  Putting other people at the risk of having their club raided for drugs simply isn't fair.

Those would be the main factors for me.  Obviously, following that doesn't in any way make drugs play riskfree.  But it minimises the risks.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 12:20:57 PM)

quote:

Original: Apocalypso

Absolutely no renegotiation of bounderies to happen while 'under the influence'.


Strong post, Apocalypso. I think I'd make -one- adaptation, but I'm a stickler for those apparently miniscule details. I know, I know... annoying as h*ll.

In any case, I'd revise the above statement to read:

Absolutely no renegotiation to -increase- the intensity or -add- new activities while "under the influence" (on either side of the kneel). Reduction or elimination of activities discussed is always acceptable. (Saying "I'm uncomfortable with this" or "no" should always be allowed -- and maybe even moreso when "under the influence", since inebriation often reduces inhibitions, causing people to agree to things that they'd normally say -no- to, so having someone ask to downgrade the activities is a clear indication of pretty high levels of discomfort, in my experience.

Dame Calla



PyrotheClown -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 12:29:17 PM)

quote:

using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc)

hmmm, just out of curiosity, if you consider pot to be a hard drug, then what on earth do you consider to be a "soft drug"?



PyrotheClown -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 12:30:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

quote:

using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc)

hmmm, just out of curiosity, if you consider pot to be a hard drug, then what on earth do you consider to be a "soft drug"?




*oops, subject was already touched upon, my bad



Fitznicely -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 12:36:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely
Point taken and yes, on reflection, I was wrong to omit alcohol from the list. I count hard drugs as being separate from pot, or there would have been a colon there instead of a comma [:)]


*Blinks*  Does that mean you don't consider meth a hard drug or have I misunderstood you?



Great post, Apocalypso...

I just wanna put something to rest. One of my few (LOL) faults is being too generalistic and vague. The list of drugs I made inthe OP wasn't meant to be any kind of ranking, exhaustive or indicative of my preferences. They were purely and simply the ones that occurred to me at the time.

OK, that's the disclaimer. God I hate disclaimers.



agirl -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 12:51:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Using fast reply.....


What I would does doesn't matter one iota to anyone other than the person/s I am having fun/playing with. If they are comfortable and I am comfortable, we are the ones taking the risk. It's no one else's business.



This sums it up quite nicely for me.

Perhaps I've been around too many *responsible* drug takers........Risk attached? Well, there a risk attached to pretty much anything if you look hard enough.

agirl





PyrotheClown -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 1:30:54 PM)

haha, I hear ya, may be it's because I've seen so many people do noose dives in their lives with out the aid of any drugs, or maybe it's because I've seen so many people balance out their lives even while they destroy their body and mind with the most destructive intoxicants(while some of these people I've known were able to lead genuinely happy lives, I'd hardly call their drug use anything but a negative part of their lives, it's not like I ever said to some one "wow, you do heroin, that's great"...).

I must also add thou, I've seen countless people completely destroy their lives with drugs... forsaking their friends, family, careers, in short, everything( I live in the meth lab capitol of the world, So I've seen this scenario ALOT!)



DavanKael -> RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK (6/12/2009 2:12:56 PM)

I think that the distinctions made by others are pretty clear about certain drugs in that initial list not being the same as the others (And the later correction of intent by the op regarding that specifically) and that Apocalypto's post was really excellent. 
Speaking theoretically here but informed consent to all involved, public versus private, depth of knowledge of partner, activity would really strike me as important qualifiers. 
  Davan



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