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RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 12:57:30 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

You've got me bang to rights. I admit, I don't have a hell of a lot of respect for someone who uses drugs, meaning coke, heroin, etc and all their deadly derivatives (don't call me on it, I'm not getting into that again, you KNOW what I'm talking about)...whether it be in or out of a scene, recreationally or as a habit. Let's face it, they can't have much respect for themselves.

Yes, that's a sweeping generalisation. I don't apologise for it.

I do have a very strong "live and let live" attitude, but fucking yourself up on drugs? Hard limit. I can't stand by and say nothing. It's not a lack of respect that leads me to say something when I know someone's "using". More, it's an overabundance of concern.

You know, some people have a drink BECAUSE they know exactly how it's going to make them feel. And it's a nice feeling..My elderly parents love a glass of something *recreationally*. Not only do they have a lot of respect for themselves, they have the respect of an ENORMOUS family. And you know, alcohol is a drug and a really rather addictive one, too.....and it can be a component in many a ruined life.

But there are rafts of people that drink in a fairly responsible way.....there are rafts of people that take other stimulants in a fairly responsible way too. ie, assess the risks and still choose to.

I'm afraid that your view of people that use drugs *having no respect for themselves* is myopic.

agirl

(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 81

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 1:04:01 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I haven't read the preceding pages but my reply is simply I have a zero tolerance policy on drugs with the exception of prescribed medication and I will want to have a goodly knowledge regarding them and their effects on a play partner. I'm fine with RACK and seeing I have a penchant for needle play, I imagine that I am a participant of edge play depending on how you define it.

Edited to add: For the purposed of BDSM or other potentially dangerous play, my stance on alcohol is the sale for drugs.. Zero Tolerance Policy..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 6/13/2009 1:06:05 PM >

_____________________________

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Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 82

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 1:42:11 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

WOULD you scene on drugs?

Whilst I get you are probably talking about 'hardcore' drugs, I don't believe it would be responsible for me or anyone else to ignore the fact that drugs are far from simply meth or coke.
Even sex can be a drug to some people.

So in answer to your question, my answer would be if it was responsible drug use I would have no issue with it.
Lets put it this way, I would rather edge play drugs with someone who I had sat and had a full on conversation with and studied the outcomes, than someone who suddenly decided that a sweeny todd scene off the top of their head would rock, anyday.
And that is coming from someone who really digs knives.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 83

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 4:02:14 PM

aravain

Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fitznicely

What I believe though, is that even in private, using drugs (meaning HARD drugs, pot, speed, meth, etc) in a scene is a big no-no.

Better toss 'Alcohol' in there, too, if you're counting pot. It's a lot harder.

I would never scene on mind-altering chemicals. I'm almost hesitant to have SEX when 'altered' or with an altered partner (Last thing I need is a 'the gay man raped me while I was drunk!' thing, which would technically be true because you can't consent when intoxicated).

YMMV

(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 84

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 4:08:11 PM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

LMAO....since when is pot a hard drug???

Quote Aravain,
"Better toss 'Alcohol' in there, too, if you're counting pot. It's a lot harder."

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Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
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(in reply to aravain)

Post #: 85

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 4:10:51 PM

aravain

Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline

That's what I thought

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 86

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 4:23:06 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

if I see someone who is in need of a shot of common sense, I don't hold back. Also, in real life, I have a reputation for calling a spade a shovel. It makes me unpopular, sure,but it also brings me a lot of respect.

well deserved respect, imo

Not necessarily. I've never had much use for people who go through life thinking they just can't help themselves from telling other people what they're doing wrong.

Not to single Fitz out, because I don't know much about him, but generally speaking I'm going to have a lot more respect for someone who keeps their mouth shut and minds their own affairs than I am for someone who feels that for some reason, they're just obligated to stick their noses in other people's business, make sweeping judgments about the way they live their lives, and then admit that they themselves occasionally use drugs themselves - just not as much as the people they're condemning. Fitz's style may earn him a lot of respect among the people with whom he chooses to surround himself in real life - or at least, he may think it does - but it certainly hasn't elevated his stock with me here in these forums. And from reading the other posts in this thread, I don't think I'm speaking just for myself.

_____________________________

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In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
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(in reply to sirsholly)

Post #: 87

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 4:25:49 PM

antipode

Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

More, it's an overabundance of concern.

I understand. You see, the really hard part is standing by when someone you care for is in possible selfdestruct mode. That's what is really hard. That is why that is called "respect". What you advocate is the easy way out, you do not have to support what you do not approve of. That's the quintessential crusade - I love you as a human being, I would help you, but as you don't want to come over to my parlour, I am going to have to skewer you, but I'll put flowers on your grave.

Respect is accepting what you do not understand, making an effort. The other thing is simply being PC.

(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 88

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 4:32:22 PM

antipode

Posts: 1787
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline

quote:

since when is pot a hard drug

That would be for about a decade now, when pot was re-engineered to be addictive, you have clearly not kept up. Google around Europe, there is a good amount of solid scientific research, the new pot is so much of an issue that those countries that have "tolerated" it are coming back from that view at considerable, umm, speed.

(in reply to breatheasone)

Post #: 89

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 4:39:10 PM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

Oh brother

..... now its "new pot" ......They have been trying to demonize pot for YEARS.... Shit alcohol is JUST as bad! And the beat goes on....la de da de de........la de da de da......

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Mike posts in black font
candy posts in pink font

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 90

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 5:05:18 PM

aravain

Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

since when is pot a hard drug

That would be for about a decade now, when pot was re-engineered to be addictive, you have clearly not kept up. Google around Europe, there is a good amount of solid scientific research, the new pot is so much of an issue that those countries that have "tolerated" it are coming back from that view at considerable, umm, speed.

My point being with that part of my post (admittedly off topic): If pot is 'hard' so is 'alcohol'... so why is one soft and not the other? Politics.

In either case, both alter the mind and, even, your physical reactions/capabilities, too. I wouldn't think that alcohol is/should be acceptable if pot is.

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 91

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 5:50:12 PM

DemonKia

Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline

FR, after read thru

Every time I've read thru this thread I've had loads of thoughts floating thru my head, so, after several read thrus I'm gonna share:

First of all, I've personally observed that lots of 'responsible drug users' hide their use, most especially from 'the judgemental' . . .. . . . To my experience it's a great deal like a history as a victim of child-abuse -- there are lots of survivors out there but they hide it from those who might casually re-traumatize them thru blaming & judging & such like . .... . My belief is that drug use, licit & illicit, is quite extensive but equally secretive due to the widespread demonization of 'drug use' & 'junkies' & 'addiction' & so on . . . . . .

I'm gonna bring an additional perspective on the issue of cannabis (the non-slang name for 'marijuana', lol) based on living in Cali where cannabis use now has a quasi-legal status . . . . . From my experience there's probably as much cannabis use in the BDSM scene in Cali as there is use of alcohol -- technically none at 'public' dungeons, & more so at private parties . . . . . lol . . . I've been at parties where the rules allow no intoxicants but the host is nursing an alcoholic beverage thru the whole party .. . ....

I use cannabis regularly, in part to treat my depression. I've had a medical recommendation, so I've been a legal user, & I've been an illicit user . . . . . I personally classify cannabis as being much more similar to coffee & tobacco as an intoxicant, especially for regular users . . . .

By way of comparison, Benadryl gets me way more intoxicated than cannabis, knocks me on my ass . . . . . & that's an 'innocuous' over-the-counter medication that's given to children pretty routinely . . . . . . But I would never drive after taking Benadryl, & the only scene I'd be doing while under its effects would be a cuddle / napping one, lol . . . . . .

There's an awful lot of irrational demonizing of cannabis that goes on, an enormous amount of money has been poured into attempts to 'scientifically prove' it's evils, with darn little results . . . . . & one set of results that's very interesting: the US gov't wanted to demonstrate that cannabis is cancer-promoting, so they funded studies as part of the ongoing National Carcinogenity Assays, thru NIH . . . . Two studies are included in the published (but suppressed) results . . . . .. Rats & mice, which have been bred to produce tumors at higher than normal rates, were fed cannabis (extracted into corn oil) for a number of months, & blood concentrations of THC metabolic byproducts were recorded . . . . . There was a strong clear connection, but in the opposite direction -- the higher the dosage of cannabis, the fewer the tumors . . . . . . (I have photocopies of the summaries from the Carcinogenity Assays, which I got out of the college library here in Chico -- I had been alerted to the existence of these studies thru message board postings, lol, in the late '90's . . . . . )

Oh, & super-strong cannabis? That's a good thing -- less smoking needed to get the same effect is a good thing for the lungs . . . . . It's an example of what's called the harms reduction approach -- reducing the harm done by intoxicant use . . . . . & when it comes to cannabis, it's widely established that users 'self titrate dosage' most effectively thru smoking, which gives immediate feedback as to effect . . . . (As compared with eaten cannabis where it's much more difficult to immediately gauge the effects of a given dose & there's a tendency to take too large a dose in trying to get more immediate effects . . . . . ) But smoking anything is bad for the lungs so the less material smoked the better -- thus hash & very strong pot are 'good' because less material needs to be smoked . . .. . . .

Of course, the 'drug warriors' are always looking for something terribly alarming to report about cannabis use, so 'super pot' has become one of the new mantras . . .. . .

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The Verbossinator

(in reply to aravain)

Post #: 92

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 7:36:24 PM

lilgirl2008

Posts: 73
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

I will share a story with all of you. It happened years ago in less experienced times. I was with a dominant and both of us had been drinking wine. He had more then I did. I allowed him to completey wrap me in saran wrap. and we played. The next day i regretted it and I had this one thought, what if he had passed out from drinking, what would have happened to me? How long would I have had to lay there. It is not something I am willing to risk again.

So now I say no to any type of intoxication and playing. I just won't do it.

(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 93

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 7:37:10 PM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Wonderful post Kia.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 94

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 9:50:52 PM

aravain

Posts: 1211
Joined: 8/26/2008
Status: offline

That was what I was trying to say (but not as well as you) DemonKia :D

(Is anyone else giggly about the idea of a Demon talking about demonizing something? XD I'm in a weird mood)

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 95

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/13/2009 11:56:35 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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Craft wise I've never allowed drugs other then the consecrated wine and of course standard incense in to a coven meet. My stance there was not only because I don't believe in it due to the fact that I and those I trained are quite able to gain a better high and remain in complete control using natural techniques. Admittedly there are times in Lodge when one or another will use mescal as a means of entry into trance prior to undertaking a spirit journey but even then there are safe guards taken and the techniques used are those traditionally used by some tribes of Native Americans. The other reason for my stance dates back decades ago when we were in the process of making Wicca and other Pagan paths accepted by the authorities in Perth WA and my argument was simply if the Police raided a Coven Stead and found grass being used it would set back our cause a good 50 years and seriously damage those of us who were public figures in both Wicca and the Pagan movement. I still hold that this argument holds true especially in red necked Queensland in relationship to BDSM gatherings.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to aravain)

Post #: 96

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/14/2009 1:38:39 AM

ShellyD

Posts: 207
Joined: 3/27/2007
Status: offline

FR
Judicious use of pot between two people who are aware of pot and the effects it has on them can be a wonderful enhancer to the experience of the exploration of sensuality and sexuality and the heady mix of pain, sadism and masochism. In the past my ex and I would spend 3-4 days in a cocoon of this and enjoyed the addition of pot to the mix. It was private and safe and definately enhanced the experience. I don't drink alcohol and have never used other illegal drugs except for pot, and nowadays not a pot smoker anymore....I soo miss the days when we would get stoned and head to ground for those uninterrupted days of pure bliss, as that is what it was, bliss.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 97

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/14/2009 5:09:26 AM

darkmoonkat

Posts: 17
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline

[edited cos I didn't notice whose account was bloody logged in]

< Message edited by darkmoonkat -- 6/14/2009 5:10:15 AM >

(in reply to ShellyD)

Post #: 98

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/14/2009 5:11:27 AM

Fitznicely

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline

Now I'm logged in as ME!!!

Thanks for the excellent discussion so far. I've caught up after a night out and, I think what's torpedoed a lot of the discussion is the many (deliberate?) misinterpretations of what counts as "hard" drugs and what doesn't.

Frankly I'm disappointed. Those in the UK will know what I mean by Class I drugs, Class II, etc. Those in the US, Wikipedia tells me you classify them into schedules. I'm sure you all know which drugs fall under the categories Schedule I, Schedule II, etc. As we have a commonly accepted frame of reference under the law, I don't see why so much of the thread has to be taken up nitpicking a random list of four words. Granted, maybe I could have used the legal classifications from the start, but seriously guys, I'm not writing this for my University Professor.

That aside, I'm fascinated by HOW exactly a scene is enhanced by the use of class I/schedule II drugs.

Given the mechanics of being quite so utterly out of control of your own thought patterns, judgement, hell, even muscles, thrown into the mix of whatever it is you personally call edge play, or RACK play (them being, for these purposes different but possibly overlapping types of play), I find it very hard to think of someone assessing the risk involved and finding it acceptable. I find it so hard, in fact, I can't see anyone agreeing.

So I've discovered something new from this thread. Excellent, score one for me. I would love to know more. Yeah, the thread well be pulled, most likely, if we go into specifics, so mail me on the other side. It puzzles me genuinely. Put aside my personal opinion that it shows a huge disrespect for your body and mind to poison yoursef with these high classification drugs, how does the altered state help you in a scene?

The lesser classification drugs, while recreationally/medicinally I don't have much of a problem with...I still can't quite wrap my head around what they bring to a scene that can't be replaced by going into sub/domspace, endorphin rush or that peculiar trancelike, caffeine-like high I personally feel when the scene's going well...

This was always specifically about scening. I don't accept that because i might enjoy a drink or a smoke when I'm not playing, it makes me a hypocrite. I don't mix the two. I don't believe you should. I THOUGHT, with 20+ years of research and first-hand experience to back up my assumption, that drugs and scening don't mix, period (even in private). I stand corrected. But for those who do mix it up, as I say, I want to understand how the high classifications highs (class I, Schedule II drugs) I mentioned above help you scene, cos I just can't imagine HOW it can be an acceptable risk to anyone.

The point people have made about "don't get involved"...well, I see the "butt out" argument, but there's times when it's just necessary, y'know? When someone is obviously in need of help or advice, I'm far from the kind of person who'll stand back and say "someone else's problem, pal". AS I said, but seems to have been joyfully ignored, I'm not some crusader who'll gleefully crash into every playparty or private scene with drugs dogs and start whupping ass. I would never put myself up as that.

But place yourself up for scrutiny - by either posting a story of excessive and unconsensual drug taking in a scene, or playing with my knowledge using dangerous drugs and damaging (class I/schedule II) one or more of the participants directly because of the effect of those drugs...I'm sorry, but I'm going to carry on jumping in and saying to those people...Don't scene on drugs.

NO, BTW, I'm not backtracking or saving face or recovering the shreds of my dignity or whatever it is that people obviously will try and jump on. This has always been my point, and was the context of me saying in the first place "Don't scene on drugs, period". That was said to someone who'd been abused horribly. Who here would not say to that person "best you stay away from that kinda shit altogether"?

I CAN be strident, I CAN be arrogant, I CAN come across as naive because of my love of brevity robs my statements of clarification that a lot of people here need. It's my way. I'm not going to starthanding out apologies, cos I happen to LIKE me, and other people like me too.

I don't, usually, have a lot of time to compose posts when I post here, so I try and convey my points in as few words as possible. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This time, I guess it didn't. Won't stop me posting, won't stop me being an arrogant bastard. Kinda comes with the territory...

Anyway, flameproof suit is firmly zippered, have at it

< Message edited by Fitznicely -- 6/14/2009 5:49:58 AM >

_____________________________

I tell you this: No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn
Proud Owner of Darkmoonkat. Such a good girl!

(in reply to darkmoonkat)

Post #: 99

RE: Drugs, Edgeplay and RACK - 6/14/2009 5:15:45 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

quote:

since when is pot a hard drug

That would be for about a decade now, when pot was re-engineered to be addictive, you have clearly not kept up. Google around Europe, there is a good amount of solid scientific research, the new pot is so much of an issue that those countries that have "tolerated" it are coming back from that view at considerable, umm, speed.

I am such an addict I am going positively mad with craving. I mean, it's been since the holidays since I've partaken, I must be ready to sell body parts to get some right?!?!?

Personally, I see alchohol as being nastier. Never knew anyone to get in a fight while stoned and I've never known anyone to have a hangover from it the next morning. Never heard of anyone being hospitalized from smoking it, if that is all they were smoking.

Nope, in 47 years, I just haven't found a down side.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 100

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