RE: What is it that us Dominants do?

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Padriag -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 8:37:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear For God's sake, give the Man a gold plated cigar. Surely that and that alone is the one common thing, the very essence of a Dominant of any gender or orientation.. Thank you old friend for this pearl of wisdom. LOL... well, it'd have to be gold plated since I'm allergic to tobacco.. [:D] But as we can see above, not everyone agrees... natch... I guess that means all's right with the universe (the day everyone agrees with me, the universe will implode... just this funny feeling I have).

Andalusite -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 8:50:25 AM)
Eh, in the past when I was a Dominant, I occasionally did things that my submissive didn't enjoy. When I was in my last relationship, as a submissive, and in my current one, as a slave, I likewise did/do things I didn't want to, or that hurt in a negative way. However, there are a LOT of options of things to do, and if someone is genuinely struggling with something that isn't quite a hard limit, sometimes backing off on it, if it isn't crucial to the Dominant, is the best answer, either for the scene, or until they can find a way to make it work. I've both taken and given "bad pain," but if it's enough to push up to the edge of red every time, eventually the submissive is probably going to start getting a little resistant. If they are otherwise a fantastic match, and that specific activity isn't on the Dominant's top 10 list, why dump them over it? I don't think that adjusting to your partner's needs and limits makes you a "service top."

Padriag -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 10:06:44 AM)
If adjusting means giving up things you specifically want, i.e. things on that "top 10 list" then yeah, I say it does make someone a service Top. If the person habitually changes what they want to suit the submissive, I say that makes them a service top (who's serving who here?). If the person is generally unwilling to make the submissive do things the submissive doesn't enjoy for the sake of pleasing the dominant, then I say that makes them a service Top. On the other hand if a dominant gives up something that didn't matter to them to begin with (well, gee... I never thought about watersports, its not something I'm into, you say that's a hard limit for you... okay... an this would be a problem why?), are they really giving anything up? If the submissive isn't willing to do X,Y,Z when she knows the dominant is very much into X, Y & Z... then are they really a fantastic match? If I found myself in that situation (and occasionally I have) I'd ask the submissive what she was doing here, why she was wasting her time and more importantly why is she wasting MY time when she isn't going to be happy in the life I live? She can then think it over and either adjust... or leave. I'm not going to compromise myself or my happiness to suit her... and if it makes her that unhappy doing things I enjoy, she just shouldn't be there in the first place. Which is why I encourage dominants to be very upfront about who they are and what they are into, and at the same time encourage submissives I know to stick to their guns about finding what's right for them... saves a lot of misunderstandings when they listen. Lets try looking at it another way. A dominant is what... someone who dominates, agreed? How can you dominate anything without imposing your will? If you avoid doing things because the submissive doesn't enjoy it... how are you actually dominating them? I'm not talking about crossing hard limits... but lets take a mild example... say the submissive doesn't like doing dishes (I've met more than a few who didn't, one that vociferously complained about it), do you avoid that because they don't like it,"Well, if it really bothers you that much, how about I do the dishes and you put them in the cabinet?"... or do you say "Look, you signed up for this, you live in my house, you knew I expect house service as part of your submission... so do the dishes... NOW. I'll be back to inspect your work in 30 min"... which sounds more like dominating someone to you? (Digression, if you are submissive and seeking, but simply cannot live with doing dishes, mopping floors or laundry... I'm not the One hunny... I ain't the One. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s4.gif[/image]) To be clear... I don't consider being a service Top a bad or derogatory thing, for some submissives its exactly what they want and need. I'm just saying, lets call a duck a duck and a goose a goose. Just cause they may seem similar in some ways in no reason to confuse the two, otherwise you get people crying fowl (pun intended [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s4.gif[/image] ).

IronBear -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 10:40:44 AM)
If you continue to cry fowl beware of being arrested for using fowl language.... [:-]

Padriag -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 11:57:29 AM)
ROFL... touche' my friend. Guess it goes to show, one good pun deserves another. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s4.gif[/image]

leadership527 -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 12:32:01 PM)
Out of curiosity Padriag, here's how I think of myself... I sacrifice either myself or Carol's desires to the best interests of the relationship. So both of your thoughts are combined... Sometimes I make Carol do things she doesn't want to do. Sometimes she really doesn't want to do them. Other times, things that I really wanted get passed over. In both cases though, the focus has nothing to do with either her or me individually. I'm looking at my best understanding of the joint interaction between us. Note, like you I'm not all that big on labels. If that's a "duck dom" to you, I'm good with that. But I am curious how you fit that into the me/her model that you've so far written on.

Padriag -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 1:01:13 PM)
To answer your question, I need to point out what I consider to be the key distinction in your example. That is whether its being done to serve the desires of the submissive, or done to protect an established relationship. Above I gave the example fo making a slave do the dished whether she liked it or not. Or another example might be making a slave take a flogging even though she doesn't enjoy it, but her owner does. These are not things that ordinarily would destroy a relationship unless the two people were just mismatched from the beginning... which does happen sometime (particularly when people rush into things or don't know themselves very well). On the other hand, suppose a slave became diabetic and as a result developed neuropathy which made a flogging unbearable (because the pain would be magnified by an order of magnitude)... a dominant, if he has any sense, is going to give up the floggings. Not to please the submissive, but to protect the relationship with the submissive. Because at that point it would be an unreasonable demand and if he persisted, the submissive would very likely walk out the door and never come back (and who would blame her!). Another example is that the dominant might occasionally give the slave a break from certain activities perhaps as a reward for their service, or even just out of affection. In this case its an occassional sacrifice... a gesture of their being pleased with the slave's general behavior... but not because the slave whined, cajoled, pleaded or otherwise tried to get her own way. Again, the distinction here is not what is done... but WHY... was the dominant doing it to please the submissive, or for their own reasons? The distinction I'm trying to make her is that the dominant may let go of somethings because its just not reasonable to expect it for whatever the reason... but that reason is not that the submissive just doesn't enjoy it, doesn't feel like it today, or what have you. "No thanks master, I have a headache" is never an acceptable excuse. The dominant does or does not do things entirely for their own reasons, not those of the slave... though his reasons may be based on what he deems best for the slave (after all, you want to keep your property in good order, right?). It comes back to that basic definition... is the motive of the dominants behavior to impose their will... or are they serving the submissive? The former would be a dominant, the later a service top (and these are generalities... we can all come up with specific exceptions, specific events that would contradict that... but what is the overall pattern.... what happens and how do things work the majority of the time, that tells the tale). Which you are, I can't say based on what little you said, could be either but I'm leaning towards the former (not that my opinion should matter all that much to a dominant... but I already know what your answer to that it [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s4.gif[/image] ) and here's why. You stated you were doing what YOU thought was best for the relationship... in other words, you used your judgement, made a decision and you then acted on it... you imposed your will. But what do you think? What's do you think your basic motivation is?

leadership527 -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 1:22:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag It comes back to that basic definition... is the motive of the dominants behavior to impose their will... or are they serving the submissive? The former would be a dominant, the later a service top (and these are generalities... we can all come up with specific exceptions, specific events that would contradict that... but what is the overall pattern.... what happens and how do things work the majority of the time, that tells the tale). Which you are, I can't say based on what little you said, could be either but I'm leaning towards the former (not that my opinion should matter all that much to a dominant... but I already know what your answer to that it [image]http://www.collarchat.com/image/s4.gif[/image] ) and here's why. You stated you were doing what YOU thought was best for the relationship... in other words, you used your judgement, made a decision and you then acted on it... you imposed your will. But what do you think? What's do you think your basic motivation is? Well, I'm trying not to be dense... well... any moreso than normal. But trying as best I can to fit my thoughts into your terminology.. a) Yes, my motivation is to impose my will, but the question is, to what end? b) I am serving the marriage insofar as I understand that (think team leader) c) There is no overall pattern in that way. The "winner" is semi-random based on my perception of what path best will make our relationship closer, more loving, etc. Or, if you want to go down this route, I'll try to be complete with my description. c) The overall pattern is that I win every time.. or I have so far at least. That is to say, she has never disobeyed my command and there is only one area that I flinch in (oddly enough for a kinkster forum, it's sexual). But yes, there are times when I know the right command for the relationship but I do not give it. Of the overall spectrum of commands that i give, I'd say that occurs well below 5% and the commands in question, being sexual in nature, are of significantly less importance to me than other the kind of commands that I consider to have real "meat" to them... life things.

Padriag -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 1:56:12 PM)
To what end... to serve your own interests. Let me digress a bit here with two perspectives by two different authors I admire. First is John Maxwell... damned fine writer and speaker who knows and has put into practice a great deal on leadership. John has the view that to be a good leader you have to be a good servant (its one of the 21 traits he views necessary to being a good leader), because in his view a good leader always serves the needs of the group over their own. And that method has worked for him in his own life... its not hard to see why it would appeal to many. But... I say bollocks. Now take Nathaniel Brandon, author of many books on self esteem and personal development. Nathaniel discusses a different perspective... enlightened self interest. The concept is essentially this... most human being have a natural tendancy towards being selfish... in some its very pronounced, while in others its very restrained... but if we are honest, its there in all of us too some degree. If we let that selfish tendancy run rampant, it will ultimately destroy us in any social group, it will destroy any potential we have as leaders, etc. It destroys trust... it consumes without ever being satiated. Enlightened self interest is selfishness governed by reason... that is, I want to have my way... but I understand that to get it, I have to consider other things, sometimes including other people. So in a relationship, from the perspective of enlightened self interest, we consider the needs of the other person, what is necessary to keep them generally happy and involved... because if we don't, we are likely to lose the relationship and therefore we lose something we wanted. Enlightened self interest requires self discipline. If we all approached dominance from John Maxwell's point of view... we'd all be service tops... and a whole category of submissives out there would not be happy. If we approach dominance more from Nathaniel Brandon's concept, we end up imposing our will... but with some restraint... to get what we want or at least as much as is possible, while recognizing that some things are simply out of reach or have a cost too high to pay. But then those submissives who want service tops wouldn't be very happy. So its good to have both... long as we recognize they're not the same... and likewise a submissive happy with on is not likely to be happy with the other. I think many have a reluctance about the latter in part because most of us have been taught all our lives that selfishness in any form in bad. Nathaniel, in his book "Honoring the Self" argues otherwise... that a degree of controlled selfishness, what he terms Enlightened Self Interest, is actually healthy... and I agree. I would also say that all dominants are, to some degree, selfish. We want what we want, and we want it how we like it. Now how selfish, and how well they control that might be a yardstick for what sort of dominant they are, but that's another discussion entirely.

leadership527 -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 3:00:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag To what end... to serve your own interests. LOL - I'm confused now... but perhaps that is exactly the truth. I don't have a very clear line in my head about where Carol's interests leave off and mine begin. Why would I even want something which was actively distasteful to her? If she wanted something, I'd be at a minimum strongly incented to want it also. If she needed it, I would by definition need it. the same operates in reverse and I think they feed off each other. For me, it's always the hall of mirrors thing. We sort of automatically reach convergence pretty quickly on things. Take, for example, the entire way we got into this authority dynamic. - I explored online and showed interest. - She decided to explore along with me. - She decided to ask about taking it real time - in her head thinking bottom. - So I got interested in real time also, but told her I was more interested in M/s - She agreed that M/s worked for her. We each just kind of vibrated off each other, feeding on our mutual interests and needs. In the story above, who's "will" was imposed? It might in fact be most accurate to think that what I actually do now is guide that same process rather than "command" carol. On the outside it looks like commands, "go here. do that." But the thought process inside remains the same and I solicit additional input when I require it to make sure that convergence continues to happen optimally. So who's will am I imposing? Mine because I desire that sort of convergence? Perhaps, for us at least, the best answer is, "it's complicated."

IronBear -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 3:18:50 PM)
Jeff, I have a few married friends who live in a M/s dynamic and your views just about explains them too..

leadership527 -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 3:57:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IronBear Jeff, I have a few married friends who live in a M/s dynamic and your views just about explains them too.. How interesting. I wonder if this sort of viewpoint is a fairly typical outcome if you start vanilla, add in the M/s, and let simmer? The more I thought about it the more I wondered wouldn't any longterm successful relationship would require some sort of conflict resolution strategy? So this appears to be more of just a viewpoint question than any material difference.... I think... Still, if I'm right on that it's fascinating to think how different the "flavor" (for lack of a better word) would be had we started the other way. That'll probably be a fun point for me to ponder for some time now.

IronBear -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 4:24:03 PM)
I agree with this: quote: The more I thought about it the more I wondered wouldn't any longterm successful relationship would require some sort of conflict resolution strategy? Those successful long term marriages I know either professionally or personally do indeed have a built in conflict resolution strategy. To that they have another thing in common: They are ready to make personal compromises in areas not important to the individual and can find ways of accommodating the requirements of their partners without altering the original dynamic. Another apparent common trait is the willingness to encourage their partner to achieve individual goals whilst maintaining the effort to achieve the joint goal.. I see a close parallel with these marriages over time to a sucessfull D/s or M/s dynamic of the 24/7 situation over a similar length of time..

Jeptha -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/15/2009 7:48:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag After reading your examples Jeptha, and this is not meant to offend, but I simply would not consider such a person to be a dominant. I would consider such a person a service Top (and I wish you hadn't made the example personal ones). That's quite alright - no offense is taken. And no offense was intended in my comments. quote: A dominant would say, "Activity X is something I want, you can either accept it as part of submitting to me, or you can find someone else to submit too... this is who I am." A service Top on the other hand does exactly what you describe, they give up things they enjoy in order to make the submissive happy... they avoid imposing their will... at least until the submissive gives them permission to do so. I would agree with you that such is the case if this "activity X" is of paramount importance for the dominant. But, if the partner in question can be a great partner in a lot of other ways (including activities Y and Z, perhaps?), then I think it's a legitimate decision to decide to forgo X without necessarily forgoing one's dominance, say. Such has been my experience; I do not necessarily expect to wait until I can find one partner who encompasses everything I could want...that expectation is borderline unrealistic, I'd wager... To find that combination of somewhat unusual qualities (including the capacities for X, Y and Z) in one individual, at the right time, within my orbit, etc., would be quite unusual, I think. Not impossible - but on the outer edges of realistic. And to wait forever in hopes of the planets aligning just right for that to happen would be to ignore the gifts in front of me, I feel. This is, though, probably more a comment on the nature of the things that interest me and that I desire as much as it is a comment on dominance. quote: That, I suspect, is why you and I don't agree on that simple definition of mine... you consider yourself a dominant, but apparently your style doesn't fit my description... and there's the rub. Now these are my opinions, and you can take them or leave them. But I doubt there's much point in continuing this discussion because, a) I'm not going to change my opinions and I don't really expect you to change yours (which leaves us at an impasse), and b) I don't care to see this devolve into anything unpleasant. So if we must, lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that (in other words, I really don't want this to turn into anything personal, but it looks to me like that's where this is headed). Your axiom is pithy, succinct and elegant. But - when anything so simple is put forward as a "truth claim", it's gotta take some testing. It's just gotta! Be that as it may - in my comments I did not mean to sound disrespectful or dismissive of you personally. On the contrary - I'm honored that you gave my comments a thoughtful reply. I'm also happy to have had the chance to think more about the subject in general, and I'm glad IronBear posted it- the original question was elegant in its simplicity, too.

ranja -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/16/2009 1:50:05 AM)
from my sub point of view and only about the Dominant in my life: He is the Boss, head of the household and all our finances and the computers. His will be done...(but if He is definitely wrong about something i usually manage to make Him see sense without Him feeling loss of authority and we might gracefully have my will be done) We also do lots of hot stuff...mainly thought up by me, but He is always in charge. He gives me pain and pleasure and some frustration. He makes sure i get things done and don't annoy myself or Him with moaning about stuff. also He farts a lot

sweetgirlserves -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/16/2009 10:18:16 AM)
Hello, Speaking only for myself, a dominant gives me an anchor for my life... otherwise i am just kind of like a kite loose in a windstorm. The man in my life makes me feel 'secured', and from that security (which of course is felt through his hold on me manifested in many ways... including of course, obedience to his will), from that security, i can thrive as a person. Without that security, i feel too lost to thrive. That 'anchoring', is the most important and necessary thing... a need, not a want... that a dominant does/provides for me. ~sgs

Andalusite -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/16/2009 11:06:20 PM)
Padraig, I'm an "e) All of the above!" kind of girl. I have service topped, been service topped, topped, bottomed, dominated, and submitted to different people in different relationships. I rarely engage in service topping, on either side of the whip. I consider it to be specifically focusing on the bottom's enjoyment within very narrow parameters, for example, the first time they try experiencing something new on a casual basis, or getting a special treat for their birthday or some such. Explicitly topping to orders (harder, softer, use the other thingy now) also falls within that category. Regular topping involves more creative control - the boundaries may or may not be exactly the same as with submission, depending on who my partner is, but the focus is on S/M and bondage. It may involve "bad pain," but neither person is surrendering to the other's will. If I submit to someone, I feel yielded to them - it is actively painful/difficult to refuse them anything, and I feel very driven to do what they want. I frequently feel almost like an extension of their body, like their brain is almost directly controlling me without my conscious thoughts getting in the way. I have a similar feeling, on the flip side, with people I have dominated. In my last relationship, my partner didn't feel like I was submitting to a particular thing unless I didn't enjoy it - it had to hurt more than I liked, or be a little emotionally uncomfortable. That worked just fine for both of us, and yes, I did dishes, and from an attitude of service, rather than just being helpful. However, there were some things I had trouble doing, that weren't important to him, so he took them off the menu. He was understanding if I got sick, or had difficulty doing something. We were together for about 3 years. My current relationship is very new, and we're still figuring out exactly what works for us, the area, extent, and expression of his control over me. We're still developing protocols and rituals. I trust him to be patient, caring, and reasonable, and I want to give him everything he wants and needs from me. If he were selfish, like you described in your previous post, and completely inflexible, I wouldn't want to give him this degree of power and authority over me. When I've topped and dominated people in the past, I tend to focus more on their reactions than on the specific tools/techniques I'm using on them. I want them to whimper, moan, cry, maybe scream a little, for their breathing to go ragged, to watch them squirm and struggle. How I specifically go about that isn't nearly as important. Likewise, as a bottom or a submissive, I have very few hard limits, mostly nothing illegal other than BDSM, no permanent injury, and a couple of other things. I figure that a skilled partner can make me enjoy or hate/be unable to endure the same exact toy/tool, depending on how warmed up I am, their tone of voice, how hard they hit, where they hit, how I feel about them emotionally, and lots of other things. I was very careful though to discuss the "things I actively love and things that I dislike/make me go 'eww"/things I'm willing to do but scared by" list with my Master and with my previous Dominant while we were dating, before making a commitment. If they had a bunch of things they required or really loved that didn't work for me, and/or vice versa, we wouldn't have entered a relationship in the first place. Anyway, I think that you, Jeptha, Jeff, Carol, my Master, and I are all on the same page as far as D/s and M/s involving consensual power exchange/control, not just S/M and bondage. How we express it is different, and is something that we negotiate ahead of time and develop during our relationships. None of us are wrong, we're just not all compatible with each other - which is perfectly fine!

Asherdelampyr -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/16/2009 11:29:33 PM)
Im assuming that everyone's answer will be different, but here is my take. ((Obligatory disclaimer, My life, my relationship, My opinion, you dont like any of it, too bad :P)) I am first and foremost an anchor, I strive to be the place of security that my girl uses as she faces the world, the one that she always knows she can count on to protect her, watch over her and help her turn into an even more wonderful and amazing person. As her Master (which is the only honorific I really need) I help her sort out all the shit in her life I take responsibility for making sure that she has everything she needs and most of what she wants, of always looking out for what is best for us and steering us towards those things. I provide support and encouragement, in short my "job" is to always be there, constantly vigilant and always guiding, looking out for our future and trying like hell to avoid the rocks placed in our path to happiness.

Juliannadelion -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/16/2009 11:47:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Asherdelampyr Im assuming that everyone's answer will be different, but here is my take. ((Obligatory disclaimer, My life, my relationship, My opinion, you dont like any of it, too bad :P)) I am first and foremost an anchor, I strive to be the place of security that my girl uses as she faces the world, the one that she always knows she can count on to protect her, watch over her and help her turn into an even more wonderful and amazing person. As her Master (which is the only honorific I really need) I help her sort out all the shit in her life I take responsibility for making sure that she has everything she needs and most of what she wants, of always looking out for what is best for us and steering us towards those things. I provide support and encouragement, in short my "job" is to always be there, constantly vigilant and always guiding, looking out for our future and trying like hell to avoid the rocks placed in our path to happiness. [sm=agree.gif] I have the bestest Master evah! You do all that and more. He forgot to mention that he helps me clean up the blood and hide the bodies as well........ [:D]

Jeptha -> RE: What is it that us Dominants do? (6/17/2009 9:47:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag ...The distinction I'm trying to make her is that the dominant may let go of somethings because its just not reasonable to expect it for whatever the reason... but that reason is not that the submissive just doesn't enjoy it, doesn't feel like it today, or what have you. "No thanks master, I have a headache" is never an acceptable excuse. The dominant does or does not do things entirely for their own reasons, not those of the slave... though his reasons may be based on what he deems best for the slave (after all, you want to keep your property in good order, right?).... I want to examine the part I've bolded in the quote above for a second. To me, you can be into your sub's reaction rather than the activity itself - it's the psychological bit that you're going for. An example; Sub A loves humiliation. Sub B isn't into it, but she'll do it because she knows it has pleased me in the past. The qualitative difference here is that Sub A will tremble with excitement when I engage her in certain ways, whereas Sub B will tense up, but endure it. The whole point of the exercise for me is the emotional involvement and feedback that Sub A provides. That's the part that I'm looking for. Sub B, while able to do it physically, is not built for that activity psychologically - at least not in the same way. This is part of what I mean be adapting to your sub. Now, if you could care less what either Sub A or Sub B experiences or expresses, but it's just your experience of the activity that you're interested in, then you win on both counts. I'm not saying that isn't legitimate. Obviously, some people really dig it, which is fine. Another example that comes to mind is the broader example that we see here fairly frequently when a sub posts a query about their dom suddenly trying to coerce them into being bi, or their dom suddenly wants to impose poly as their domly prerogative, etc. The success of the imposition of the will in those instances is sticky, at best. As a side question, whether or not anybody acquiesces to such demands just strikes me as an agreement between two wills, more than an imposition of the one upon the other.

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