RE: Authority of the Bible?

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DemonKia -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 4:56:57 AM)
FR, after read thru Esinn: what a weird place to post that question. You want a bunch of kinky folk to convince you why you should believe in the Christian bible? I'd think there are Christian forums where you can get lots more of what you're looking for . . . . . LaTigresse, etc: the original books of the Christian bible were written in Aramaic, Greek, & Hebrew. The first translations used by the early Catholic church were in Latin. The original King James version was translated from the Latin into Elizabethan English. There are modern versions which have been carefully translated from the original by biblical scholars & theologians; the one I have is a collegiate version which features all the different books (various branches use different sets of the books), & also includes the apocrypha, as well as copious footnotes. I bought it from the college bookstore when I was taking a bunch of religious studies classes. My experience is that the very act of proselytizing can drive people away. Most of the hard-core atheists that I've known, the vehemently anti-Christian ones, were raised in some kind of evangelizing, proselytizing atmosphere (Catholic, Protestant, whatever) & grew into adults who resented the attempts to 'force' them to be Christian. (I use the term 'force' as that best describes how they expressed their feelings about this.) My mother called herself a 'recovering fucktamentalist', for instance, which was quite something as she was otherwise not given to swearing . . . .. Her mother did her damnedest to convince me to be Christian, but the bible stories she read to me produced the opposite effect. I refuse to believe in the power of hate & hostility, & the 'God' of the Christian bible is, in my opinion, dripping with malice. Not to mention little things like the Inquisition & the witch burnings (which went on for some seven or eight centuries) . . . . . Christians running around acting like aggrieved minorities & refusing to acknowledge the totalitarian past of Christianity don't help their own case. Nor does the fright-mongering that masquerades as reason: 'believe or you will go to hell' is a lousy reason to believe. Many of us perceive that as 'God the bully' & it doesn't work so well anymore. Ah. & why I chose to respond to this thread? (Beyond the obvious chance to show off, lol . . . . ) The opportunity to share some Bill Hicks, another recovering fucktamentalist: Fundamentalist Christianity - fascinating. These people actually believe that the the world is 12,000 years old. Swear to God. Based on what? I asked them. "Well we looked at all the people in the Bible and we added 'em up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages: 12,000 years." Well how fucking scientific, okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble. That's good. You believe the world's 12,000 years old? "That's right." Okay, I got one word to ask you, a one word question, ready? "Uh-huh." Dinosaurs. You know the world is 12,000 years old and dinosaurs existed, they existed in that time, you'd think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point. "And lo Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus... with a splinter in his paw. And O the disciples did run a shriekin': 'What a big fucking lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw and the big lizard became his friend. "And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O so many years inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills. "And oh Scotland did praise the Lord. Thank you Lord, thank you Lord. Thank you Lord." - Bill Hicks (Not to mention quasars & atoms & galaxies & radio waves & aerodynamics & all the other observable phenomena that the various religious bibles never mentioned . . . . . . ) & Christianity has a built-in defense system: anything that questions a belief, no matter how logical the argument is, is the work of Satan by the very fact that it makes you question a belief. It's a very interesting defense mechanism and the only way to get by it -- and believe me, I was raised Southern Baptist -- is to take massive amounts of mushrooms, sit in a field, and just go, "Show me." - Bill Hicks

Alphascendant -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 5:49:15 AM)
And the Holy Spirit prepareth the great monsters, and every living creature that is creeping, which the waters have teemed with, after their kind, and every fowl with wing, after its kind, and the Holy Spirit seeth that [it is] good. Genesis 1.21 A sea-[monster] am I, or a dragon, That thou settest over me a guard? Job 7.12 But Thou hast smitten us in a place of dragons, And dost cover us over with death-shade. If we have forgotten the name of our Holy Spirit, And spread our hands to a strange spirit Psalm 44.19-20 Thou hast broken by Thy strength a sea-[monster], Thou hast shivered Heads of dragons by the waters, Psalm 74.13 In that day lay a charge doth Jah, With his sword -- the sharp, and the great, and the strong, On leviathan -- a fleeing serpent, And on leviathan -- a crooked serpent, And He hath slain the dragon that [is] in the sea. Isaiah 27.1 And wild asses have stood on high places, They have swallowed up wind like dragons, Consumed have been their eyes, for there is no herb. Jeremiah 14.6 Even dragons have drawn out the breast, They have suckled their young ones, The daughter of my people is become cruel, Like the ostriches in a wilderness. Lamentations 4.3 There are at least twenty other examples as well, but ....... who wants to read ALL of them?

DemonKia -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 5:59:48 AM)
Dragons are not dinosaurs; that comparison only works if we interpret 'dragon' to be a metaphor for 'dinosaur'. Hicks' point still stands. The bible reads as exactly what it is, the writings of a bunch of sheepherders living 2000 some years ago who had no special knowledge about the 'true nature of reality', whatever that might be. The only way it 'works' is if read as metaphor, & if it's to be read as metaphor it makes it hard to take the whole literalist thing seriously . .. . .. Show me something that sheepherders 2000 years ago could not possibly have known & that is not metaphorical . . .. . .

DomKen -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 6:32:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alphascendant And the Holy Spirit prepareth the great monsters, and every living creature that is creeping, which the waters have teemed with, after their kind, and every fowl with wing, after its kind, and the Holy Spirit seeth that [it is] good. Genesis 1.21 A sea-[monster] am I, or a dragon, That thou settest over me a guard? Job 7.12 But Thou hast smitten us in a place of dragons, And dost cover us over with death-shade. If we have forgotten the name of our Holy Spirit, And spread our hands to a strange spirit Psalm 44.19-20 Thou hast broken by Thy strength a sea-[monster], Thou hast shivered Heads of dragons by the waters, Psalm 74.13 In that day lay a charge doth Jah, With his sword -- the sharp, and the great, and the strong, On leviathan -- a fleeing serpent, And on leviathan -- a crooked serpent, And He hath slain the dragon that [is] in the sea. Isaiah 27.1 And wild asses have stood on high places, They have swallowed up wind like dragons, Consumed have been their eyes, for there is no herb. Jeremiah 14.6 Even dragons have drawn out the breast, They have suckled their young ones, The daughter of my people is become cruel, Like the ostriches in a wilderness. Lamentations 4.3 There are at least twenty other examples as well, but ....... who wants to read ALL of them? I've read all of them and none of them describe a dinosaur. Especially telling is that in all the tales of shepherds guarding their flocks there is no mention of any predator not alive today. You'd think if any velocirapor like dinosaurs had been around, large dog sized critters that leapt onto their prey and ripped them open with big claws on their feet, the bronze age shepherds would have mentioned them at least once.

LaTigresse -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 7:29:09 AM)
I wanna try that Bill Hicks approach.......I've got the field. Kia, is that book quite literally, ALL writings, even Mary's? And is it still available? Just curious because, well, I am curious.

beargonewild -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 7:48:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Esinn quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: Esinn Question Everything My question which I have clarified in my mind since the OP. Why do you believe the bible is an authority when placed next to other holy books which make the same exclusive yet contradicting claims? E No. As I said earlier...the bible is biased in favor of the writers and that same principle applies to any other religious bible of other faiths. So I am able to conclude from this you believe that god is a creation of man? No entirely correct. How God is perceived is is a creation of man. To some he is: Buddha, Jehovah, Vishnu, Vishnu, Shiva, Zeus, Christ or Brahma. All the depictions of how god looks like are simply a rendering of what man thinks god looks like. Nobody knows for absolutely sure, I mean....mankind can't even agree on if god is male or female or neither.

JonnieBoy -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 7:56:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I wanna try that Bill Hicks approach.......I've got the field. Kia, is that book quite literally, ALL writings, even Mary's? And is it still available? Just curious because, well, I am curious. LOTS of REALLY NICE mushrooms in Wales ... must be why it's known locally as "God's country" [;)] ...... Of course I'm far too disrespectful to God for creating us the perfect conditions for them not to have sampled a few [sm=evil.gif] If God really existed I'd have been struck down long ago anyway. If you need any further proof of the non-existence of God, you could try reading Oolon Colluphid. Pirate Pirate

Starbuck09 -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 7:56:50 AM)
It is not untrue esin it is a fact like any other. If one does not choose religion but is instead indoctrinated then again that is no different to growing up as a capitalist, a communist or fascist. Children who are born into a religion are no more likely to accept it than those born into a political ideology will accept that. I do not think any effort should be put into which god or ideal to choose except for personal interpretation, I certainly wouldn't trust others with which beliefs I live my life under. All writings are subjective as are ideals that is the point the bible can be interpreted however you wish it to be as can the works of any of our phillosophers throughout history. That is as it should be it is important because otherwise one stultifies intellectually as they become reliant on the interpretations of others which is a recipe, in my opinion, for disaster both personal and in society at large. No other sphere is faith based Esin maths is not based on faith it is based on fact religion like ideology is not it is seperate. Feel free to address any other concerns you might have Esin but I would point out before you do that simple guessing is always frowned upon in any sphere be it based in fact or faith. I haven't got a god Esin you guessed and were incorrect a flaw in personal interpretation but an important one as only through mistakes can you learn. In the case of the bible god declares himself Alpha and omega and leaves his writings in the bible [if you believe the bible is the word of god] however he does not rule us so his writings are eminently subjective as man by christendom's own admisssion is flaed whereas god is perfection. In this case god's word which is perfect is being interpreted by a flawed being which would make it inherently subjective.

LaTigresse -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 8:15:10 AM)
Pirate, what I believe, would take up the entire forum section and then, cause it to blow up. Most likely.

DemonKia -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 8:30:45 AM)
Hehehe . . . . . [;)] Hmmmm, not sure about Mary's writings. Went & dug it out: it's the HarperCollins Study Bible, New Revised Standard Version, A New Annotated Edition by the Society of Biblical Literature . . .. .. . I've been somewhat lackadaisically working on a project to 'collect' all the examples of 'biblically condoned atrocity & moral turpitude', tho' I've only made it thru the first coupla chapters . . . . . Mostly just for the fun of it, lol . . . . . I got started a few years ago after listening to all that talk about the nature of marriage & what the Christian God expects in that regard; every time I heard that kinda talk I'd flash on all those concubines & that polygyny was the default mode for all those sheepherders . . . .. . quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I wanna try that Bill Hicks approach.......I've got the field. Kia, is that book quite literally, ALL writings, even Mary's? And is it still available? Just curious because, well, I am curious. & Starbuck09, some years ago I read a report on the website of the Barna Group (evangelical Christian pollsters working for other evangelical Christian groups) where they admitted that the retention rate for children raised in Christian families was only about 2%, & that the over-18 conversion rate was only about 2% . . . . . I didn't save it at the time (kicking self, yah), & I've since gone back looking for it but I think they've removed it, for fairly obvious reasons. But the other data collected by Pew & such like in the years since pretty much confirms that Christianity is in dire straits, depopulating at a pretty significant rate . . . . . . . But there's a lot of denial & lying with statistics going on in all kinds of areas (don't get me started on the deceptions about how much petroleum is left to pump, lol), so this is just par for the course . . .. . . One of my favorite illustratives of the state of Christian depopulation is to observe how many church buildings no longer house congregations & have been converted to secular residential or commercial uses. There's some regional variation, but there's an awful lot of erstwhile churches that no longer are sacred refuges . .. . . & I'm absolutely convinced the Christians, especially the obnoxious proselytizers, have brought this on themselves . .. .. .

Starbuck09 -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 8:36:06 AM)
Cheers for the heads up DemaonKia I could well believe that i'll have a quick trawl and see if I can find something similar. I've just realised there is a brilliant bit of unintentional irony in my penultimate sentence [:)].

LaTigresse -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 8:46:07 AM)
Kia, Aswad gave me a great list of reference books a year or more ago and I went and lost it. He is rarely online anymore and I am annoyed with myself. The history of religioun just fascinates the hell out of me.

Esinn -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 9:24:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DemonKia FR, after read thru Esinn: what a weird place to post that question. You want a bunch of kinky folk to convince you why you should believe in the Christian bible? I'd think there are Christian forums where you can get lots more of what you're looking for . . . . . Thanks for taking notice, D Let me say you became involved in this thread rather quickly pumpkin. I have a strange suspicion if after your attack I can gather the courage to start another discussion you might have more to say as well.. Prior to logging on even if you beat my ass with a rubber hose I would not have believed you if you told me such a forum was here. Regardless of your sexual desires, no matter how nasty others may view them these 2 topics still remain social issues - I am a socially involved person. It is nice to know, even if only on rare occasion, we as a community do think of things other than BDSM.

Esinn -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 9:36:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: Esinn quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild quote: ORIGINAL: Esinn Question Everything My question which I have clarified in my mind since the OP. Why do you believe the bible is an authority when placed next to other holy books which make the same exclusive yet contradicting claims? E No. As I said earlier...the bible is biased in favor of the writers and that same principle applies to any other religious bible of other faiths. So I am able to conclude from this you believe that god is a creation of man? No entirely correct. How God is perceived is is a creation of man. To some he is: Buddha, Jehovah, Vishnu, Vishnu, Shiva, Zeus, Christ or Brahma. All the depictions of how god looks like are simply a rendering of what man thinks god looks like. Nobody knows for absolutely sure, I mean....mankind can't even agree on if god is male or female or neither. Please accept my apology if I am inserting words into your mouth. But what you are saying: The perception of god is subjective. However, the will and essence of god is objective? I will buy into the first part as the very nature of any god is beyond the reach of human understanding. I am of the opinion this must also be applied to gods will & essence too. Even as a spiritual atheist I am troubled by attempting to understand god this way. That said thank you for the reply. Care to elaborate in 2-3 paragraphs preferably here or in private?

Esinn -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 10:07:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 It is not untrue esin it is a fact like any other. If one does not choose religion but is instead indoctrinated then again that is no different to growing up as a capitalist, a communist or fascist. Children who are born into a religion are no more likely to accept it than those born into a political ideology will accept that. I do not think any effort should be put into which god or ideal to choose except for personal interpretation, I certainly wouldn't trust others with which beliefs I live my life under. All writings are subjective as are ideals that is the point the bible can be interpreted however you wish it to be as can the works of any of our phillosophers throughout history. That is as it should be it is important because otherwise one stultifies intellectually as they become reliant on the interpretations of others which is a recipe, in my opinion, for disaster both personal and in society at large. No other sphere is faith based Esin maths is not based on faith it is based on fact religion like ideology is not it is seperate. Get me a bucket

Starbuck09 -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 10:20:36 AM)
You say you want to discuss different viewpoints Esin if you're not capable of doing so then might I suggest a forum such as this one which you profess to be delighted to find is not for you. If you are simply unable to understand some of the concepts in my post then ask politely and i will do my best to explain them in different terms.

JonnieBoy -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 10:21:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Esinn Get me a bucket What's this ... "Holy Orders" ? Pirate

ReverendJim -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 10:33:15 AM)
That's my department Pirate.

LaTigresse -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 10:48:25 AM)
Given the nature of things reverend, that might be a ego popping thing to say around here.[:D]

Mercnbeth -> RE: Authority of the Bible? (6/26/2009 11:33:02 AM)
LaTigresse, came across a fascinating book a few months ago that you might also be interested in: Reading Judas...The Gospel of Judas and the Shaping of Christianity by Elaine Pagels and Karen L. King edited to add: Pagels is Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University and the author of several books on Gnostic Christianity, including "The Gnostic Gospels". King is Winn Professor of Ecclesiastical History at the Harvard Divinity School, and she has also written several books on Gnosticism.

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