RE: Now... is it just me...? (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 9:45:30 AM)

Why does anyone need to validate anything to you, or anyone else? Your approach shows more of being antagonistic than actually seeking information. Here you can try the FAQ topic that is from the Gorean section of these forums

HERE


quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungLust

I intentionally made a contentious topic, yes....

But, I would like Goreans to validate their belief system. Perhaps I'm not as educated as I should be, but if there were a Scientology forum here, I would post something similar. I would either like to be enlightened or to open the eyes of some people... or at least get a few laughs.

I'd still like to hear the basis for gender-specific dominance and submission.




lronitulstahp -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 9:54:26 AM)

quote:

Sorry, Iron, I know you don't agree with me

It's not about whether or not i agree with you. my problem with this thread lies solely in the way it was presented by the OP. It didn't give way for intelligent or thoughtful discussion. i saw it as completely self-serving and made to put down people for living their lives as they see fit, simply because the OP already disagreed with it. i don't think anyone has the right to demand that someone validate their style of living, beliefs, or activities when they aren't harming or infringing the rights of others.

Having an opinion and sharing it without being rude, arrogant, codescending, and incendiary is quite possible. i just feel that the OP left little room for real discourse. 



SteelofUtah -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 9:58:29 AM)

What is funny is that if you actually READ the Gor books you will find all other aspects of Power Dynamics expressed.

For Instance Panther Women (Dominant Women / Domina) exist on Gor, as do Kajirus (submissive males) And their are Free Companions which represent in many concepts from Matriarchial to in ways Mistress-esque behaviors.

It is easy to see an over tone of the Dominant Male however it is due to the POV of the Narrarator of the books, other power dynamics exist on Gor they are just not the focus of the books. And those who follow online play tend to only focus on the nature of the way the books written however those who acknowledge the philosophy (At least in my experience) are aware of the multiple ways this lifestyle can be lived and make no bones about someone elses choices.

As with all life philosophies there are those who take it too far they also seem to be the most vocal making them the easiest to reference when talking about the negative aspects.

Orion as for your statement about BDSM and the Gorean Philosophy, Yes you can, however how many do you personally know. I have yet to meet one that if they were not currently in a Power Based Relationship that focused on Discipline they eventually were. I find it difficult for a person to emulate a Gorean Philosophy and NOT engage in some form of Bondage, Discipline, Submission, or Sado-Masochism. Yes I know it is Possible for a person to believe in the Philosophy without engaging in the activity I have just yet to meet any.

Steel



MarsBonfire -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 10:02:15 AM)

I have no problem whatsoever with people living their lives as they see fit, Iron. You or anyone else is prefectly free to paint yourselves blue and stand on street corners preaching to the populace about the evils of Hostess Twinkies, for all I care.

But, when what you believe begins to harm others, then I tend to speak out.

Previously, I was accused by Iron Bear that my statements constituted a breech of TOS because he thought I was attacking his lifestyle. Not so. If someone were on a thread talking about how great it was to engage in breath play unto the point of causing brain damage to their partner, I think I'd speak up then too. I guess you could say I have no problem with Gor, so long as it doesn't harm others. But, as I've said, I've seen it do so on a regular basis.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 10:14:31 AM)

Words changed to prove a point:


" Sorry, Iron, I know you don't agree with me. But this IS my take on BDSM. I'm not trying to be an asshole here. But I do honestly think that BDSM is one step away from being a dangerous cult. I had a BDSM room mate at one point who ripped me off to the tune of over $800, claiming that he had every right to do so as a Dominant. I've seen plenty of people who lept into it after reading the books, only to be physically, mentally and emotionally abused by others. When I was a board member of a Christian group in Denver, we saw so many women hurt by this "deviant behavior" we actually had discussion about if it would be more effective to start a post-abuse recovery group specifically to help them. "


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Sorry, Iron, I know you don't agree with me. But this IS my take on Gor. I'm not trying to be an asshole here. But I do honestly think that Gor is one step away from being a dangerous cult. I had a Gorean room mate at one point who ripped me off to the tune of over $800, claiming that he had every right to do so as a Gorean. I've seen plenty of people who lept into it after reading the books, only to be physically, mentally and emotionally abused by others. When I was a board member of a BDSM group in Denver, we saw so many women hurt by this "philosophy" we actually had discussion about if it would be more effective to start a post-abuse recovery group specifically to help them.


There are actual groups that are run by Goreans, that try to assist those that have suffered at the hands of an abuser. Just as there are humans all over the Earth, some will use anything they can to cause harm. If you were to ask me if there were some dangerous people that were Gorean, I would say yes. Just like if you were to ask me if there were some dangerous people that were Christian.

quote:


The question remains: is Gor the BDSM version of Scientology? Is it a cult?


No it is not. Just like anything though, there can be some involved in it that may use it for such. Just like anything that is a social interaction interest, can be turned into such.

quote:


I say no. It's not quite a cult. But darn close. And a very destructive near miss, in my opinion.


I hope this has addressed your issues somewhat, but I have a feeling it would not matter what anyone says, or shows you.



barelynangel -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 10:20:12 AM)

quote:

But, I would like Goreans to validate their belief system.


Okay i HAVE to say it -- people in hell want ice water -- the question is -- do they get it?

Second question -- i am at a loss as to who are you where you think you are important enough for people who have a WHOLE FORUM of dicussions would waste their time with someone stamping their foot trying to manipulate them into wasting their time with what you want?

Maybe i missed the memo that indicated you were someone of importance to Goreans.

To those who are so negative against Goreans that they either post these types of threads or run to post badly about Goreans, they really need to ask themselves why? Because no group of people no matter what their beliefs are should hold so much power over you. You really need to ask yourself why you would feel so negative towards a concept others believe and yes do live and are able to live without most people ever knowing the IDENTIFICATION they use as GOREAN.

Seriously folks, bitching and moaning about Goreans to rally some kind of protest to me means Gorean has WAY to much control and power over you. If you tend to like living like that --- i guess its okay, but eventually it will become unhealthy for you and you seriously are not harming anyone but yourself because you sure aren't making any important points TO Goreans, and if you have people following you in your beliefs about Goreans, again why do you have such a desperation. There is more to your negativity than simply not liking, you have an UNHEALTHY obsession over something that should have no effect on your life because well -- according to you (people who are negative about Gor) you don't like Gor or Goreans. Okay we get it, don't really much care. Why do you?

angel



MarsBonfire -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 10:21:31 AM)

Orion, I cop to that totally. These are my opinions, based on my experiences. Although I've met pleanty of wonderful, self-realized BDSMers, I've also had the misfortune to know a great many Gor folk who have given me this opinion of this particular subculture of BDSM. So, anyone reading this thread, please take that into account.

I'm speaking of RTm personal history, not just philosophical ideals.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 10:22:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

What is funny is that if you actually READ the Gor books you will find all other aspects of Power Dynamics expressed.


Indeed you will. You will see a whole spectrum of human behavior in the series.

quote:


For Instance Panther Women (Dominant Women / Domina) exist on Gor, as do Kajirus (submissive males) And their are Free Companions which represent in many concepts from Matriarchial to in ways Mistress-esque behaviors.


Yep. Many miss this when reading, or most that proclaim Gorean, did not read and instead play a Gorean in Second Life.

quote:


It is easy to see an over tone of the Dominant Male however it is due to the POV of the Narrarator of the books, other power dynamics exist on Gor they are just not the focus of the books. And those who follow online play tend to only focus on the nature of the way the books written however those who acknowledge the philosophy (At least in my experience) are aware of the multiple ways this lifestyle can be lived and make no bones about someone elses choices.


This is where many get their first impression of Gor, and then it never changes.

quote:


As with all life philosophies there are those who take it too far they also seem to be the most vocal making them the easiest to reference when talking about the negative aspects.

Orion as for your statement about BDSM and the Gorean Philosophy, Yes you can, however how many do you personally know. I have yet to meet one that if they were not currently in a Power Based Relationship that focused on Discipline they eventually were. I find it difficult for a person to emulate a Gorean Philosophy and NOT engage in some form of Bondage, Discipline, Submission, or Sado-Masochism. Yes I know it is Possible for a person to believe in the Philosophy without engaging in the activity I have just yet to meet any.

Steel


There are a few that do it, but the dominance portion is not seen as most associate with BDSM. It is seen as just having a dominant personality all the time. BDSM is a very broad term, that is usually associated with human sexual behavior (which is a narrow view as well). Many of the "lifestyles" people talk about are alternative lifestyles to mainstream society. Many of those are discussed on BDSM forums, but I do not consider them BDSM. I consider that they have aspects that may be similar to some BDSM activities.

Hey, have we actually turned a trolling topic into a decent one?



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 10:27:06 AM)

Mars, I understand that, and that is why I have not just written you off in this area. Our perceptions are molded by our experiences, that is part of human nature. Most that live a Gorean life, you would not even be aware of. They do not go to brunches, they do not beat their slaves into bloody pulps, they live as any human does, but with a different perspective on life. The one's you will almost always here about, are the one's that draw attention because of their criminal behavior. Just finished dealing with something like that, my girl's former owner received 11 years suspended sentence for some of the things he did. I was there when he did it, I got out of my assault rap on him, he was unable to dodge the three felonies on himself though. He is Gorean, he is dangerous, and there are good and bad people all over.

The offer is still open if you ever have questions though.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarsBonfire

Orion, I cop to that totally. These are my opinions, based on my experiences. Although I've met pleanty of wonderful, self-realized BDSMers, I've also had the misfortune to know a great many Gor folk who have given me this opinion of this particular subculture of BDSM. So, anyone reading this thread, please take that into account.

I'm speaking of RTm personal history, not just philosophical ideals.



SteelofUtah -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 10:44:38 AM)

Orion,

Those are all very well put and valid concepts.

In the last one you mentiuon the nature of BDSM as an Alternative Lifestyle and while I agree with you it is because I am forced to the nature of Words in WIITWD causes me to have to see the term "Alternative Lifestyle" as this all encompasing concept because to view it in only one way leads to someone who sees it differently to disagree with me, and disagree in a valid way.

All things considered, I agree with you. Dominance can be seen in many different ways. I am sure I do not need to remind you of the Gorean Conventions where Dominance is a SHOW you put on for a large convention hall filled with lots of people while you walk your "Kajira" around by a collar and a Ciric and Order Sules and Kava and ask for ice shards. All of these people whill claim to follow the Gorean Lifestyle and believe in the Gorean Philosophy. All things considered there are examples of those who consider themselves Masters or Leather Folk who Members of the Order of the Triscillian or the weeping heart and make anyone who see them assume everyone interested in BDSM is a Walking Talking Jack Ass.

BDSM is a Canopy of ACTIVITIES and DESCRIPTIONS. No one IS BDSM, although you can be Gorean, (I am going out on a Limb there I do not actually believe anyone is from the Planet Gor however adhearing to the Philosophy affords the title) I find that because of how OPEN the Acronym of BDSM can be it is impossible to say you live the BDSM Lifestyle because that would be an all encompasing everything goes lif.

I believe the same can somewhat be said saying that one is Gorean however there is a somewhat more narrow spectrum in what a Gorean Master is and what a Kajira is and then you get into the Color of Silks and things get just as retarded as the difference between Sub and Slave.

The point is that for as much as the Gorean Philosophy and BDSM Lifestyle are different they share elemets that keep them tied together forever. You will be hard pressed to find someone who knows of one but not the other, because they although very different compliment each other.

All of this of course is my opinion.

Steel



YoungLust -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 11:01:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

If you think about it for a second and do a little searching/reading you'll find that both YoungLust and Belittled are kids, all of 19 which is a great age to be at but I seem to remember and I'm thinking that a few of you may remember those years yourselves, at their age things do seem to be black and white and all things need validation and justification. Mostly life experiences teach us otherwise and usually instructs us, albeit harshly at times, not to be so bloody minded and rubbishing things either you have no practical experience of and know bugger all about. It is after all human nature to fear and thus attack the unknown. I would say though to both YoungLust and Belittled: "Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem." (In the good old days, children like you were left to perish on windswept crags)
Yeah, 19 is pretty fucking amazing. Although your generalization about how I see the world is even more ridiculous than how I see living a lifestyle based on the musings of an incredibly sub-par writer/philosophical hack. Not to mention that I'm fairly accomplished for my young, but oh-so-glorious age. I don't see how the IDEA that since my pubes haven't grayed and my delicate features haven't wrinkled, that my opinions carry less weight.

As to why I didn't post this in the Gorean forum... well... if you read the posts and have any sort of ability to comprehend- well... anything, you'd see why.



Christinestill -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 11:09:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

we need an eye roll emoti....


[sm=rolleyes.gif] 



Vendaval -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 11:12:24 AM)

Thank you for the laughter and smiles, IB. Cheers! [:D]


quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
I would say though to both YoungLust and Belittled: "Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem." (In the good old days, children like you were left to perish on windswept crags)




IronBear -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 11:35:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YoungLust

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

If you think about it for a second and do a little searching/reading you'll find that both YoungLust and Belittled are kids, all of 19 which is a great age to be at but I seem to remember and I'm thinking that a few of you may remember those years yourselves, at their age things do seem to be black and white and all things need validation and justification. Mostly life experiences teach us otherwise and usually instructs us, albeit harshly at times, not to be so bloody minded and rubbishing things either you have no practical experience of and know bugger all about. It is after all human nature to fear and thus attack the unknown. I would say though to both YoungLust and Belittled: "Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem." (In the good old days, children like you were left to perish on windswept crags)
Yeah, 19 is pretty fucking amazing. Although your generalization about how I see the world is even more ridiculous than how I see living a lifestyle based on the musings of an incredibly sub-par writer/philosophical hack. Not to mention that I'm fairly accomplished for my young, but oh-so-glorious age. I don't see how the IDEA that since my pubes haven't grayed and my delicate features haven't wrinkled, that my opinions carry less weight.

As to why I didn't post this in the Gorean forum... well... if you read the posts and have any sort of ability to comprehend- well... anything, you'd see why.


Are you really such an imbecile? I seriously doubt that. The only part of my post is that which I addressed to you personally is that which I have highlighted in red. The rest is a generalization talking to others about memories of when we were your age. Actually old chap, it hasn't changed all that much in the core elements. The greatest change between then and now is that more is expected of your age group which I done see as a good thing. Such a pity that you are determined to attack that which you do not know or understand even when there have been wonderfully insightful posts made here by those who do know and not second hand but in some cases from being there and living the life.

As to your snide remarks about the possibility I may not be able to comprehend, I shall just laugh this off as a juvenile smart mouth crack for I have no need to prove my academic achievements to anyone here let alone a young pup.



Belittled -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 11:47:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
As to your snide remarks about the possibility I may not be able to comprehend, I shall just laugh this off as a juvenile smart mouth crack for I have no need to prove my academic achievements to anyone here let alone a young pup.


An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:
  1. Person A makes claim X.
  2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
  3. Therefore A's claim is false.
Get back to the point, won't you?
Aren't we a little old to battle in verbal cock-fights? Well, apparently we're not, but, you get my point.

:)
Also, I'm sure you'd appreciate the "black and white" definition I presented to you. You can trust me, my schooling wasn't 50 years ago.



Vendaval -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 11:48:44 AM)

Belittled,

Being mouthy and rude to those who are older and wiser just makes you look stupid. [8|]



Belittled -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 12:01:12 PM)


I honestly find it amusing how age, once again, has slipped its way into a valid argument.
Can't the oldies get over it? Honestly. And no worries on the "you look stupid" thing, stupid seems to be the only language that the senile speak now-a-days.




Aylee -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 12:03:23 PM)

Wow!  I just snorted my grilled cheese sandwich through my nose!



Vendaval -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 12:04:38 PM)

Video evidence? That's quite a trick ya know. [8D]



Maxwell67 -> RE: Now... is it just me...? (6/27/2009 12:12:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
"Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem." (In the good old days, children like you were left to perish on windswept crags)


Those were the 'Good Old Days'??  Really?  What was good about that?

Now as to the OP's Original question...

Like so many here, I too have read several books in Norman's series and although I did enjoy them I find the idea of bringing that philosophy into my actual lifestyle to be impractical and just plain unwise.  There is no place in modern Western culture for the kind of gender bias that is tolerated so readily by the Gorean philosophy and the idea of a caste system is just right out.  There are far better ways to live an M/s lifestyle (and no, I am not going to qualify this with an "In My Opinion.").  A century from now M/s will be going strong and the Gorean way of life will have followed so many other fads into the dust and the pages of fiction and perhaps a few histories. 

Of course few Goreans are going to listen to the criticisms of anyone who is not a follower of their philosophy.. so arguing the point is moot.  If it is not your thing, don't do it.  Or if you are like myself, you can put your distate into action and enjoy the pleasures to be found seducing lovely Gorean slave girls away from the lifestyle and into something far superior. [;)]

As to Scientology.. like all symbol systems (which is what religions are, after all), it works differently for different folks.  For some it may truly be the path to bliss, and for those people I wish them well.  There are those, however, for whom it is yet another opportunity to take someone elses words and weave them into a dogmatic structure which can then be used to control others.  It is no better or worse than any other religion in this respect.  There is no "One True Way".  That particular kind of Truth with a capital T is, despite the appearance of those letters in that combination, actually entirely relative.

I would not go so far as to call either the Gorean philosophy, or Scientology in themselves 'ridiculous' though... That word might describe many of the practitioners of both systems, but certainly not all.  There are people who can find something useful and worth adapting to their own lives in either system.. it depends entirely on the practitioner.



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