RE: are we all "equal"?

RE: are we all "equal"? (Full Version)

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alanswhore -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 9:17:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl why is it believed because some chose not to see themselves as "equals" that we are referring to ourselves as "less" or "inferior"? Because, at least in the common usage of the word, that's what the alternative to "equal" is. If x is not equal to y, x has to be either greater than or less than y. Again, if you're using "equal" to mean "the same," then of course no one is "equal." The most completely vanilla relationship imaginable isn't "equal," because they're still different people with different talents, different responsibilities, different goals, different interests, and so forth. "Identical" denotes things that are exactly the same; "equal" denotes things that are different, but not of lesser or greater worth than each other.

tazzygirl -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 9:17:33 AM)
i agree Desi. on another thread, we were speaking of human equality and D/s equality. i can do things Master cannot. he can do many things i cannot. but to say we are "equal" meaning "the same" isnt true. in your example, not many coukld do the CEO's job ( i have a business degree and i wouldnt even want to think about taking that on). the secretary's job is much easier to replace. they arent equal, even though they fullfill a function in each other's lives from the moment of birth, we are all no longer equal. equal, to me, means the same, even in value. the value of my education was not the same as someone who went to private school. my college education was not ivory league. we have equal rights under the laws. show me where the laws state we are all equal? if that were true, would we not all be entitled to the same degree of housing, cars, ect? no, it merely means that if you have the money, and if you have the ability, you are entitled to go after that job, buy that house, have that education. in my way of thinking, the minute i turn to a man and say... i am giving up control to your wisdom... i am giving up my right to be equal to that man. im still waiting to hear an argument against this.

RCdc -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 9:24:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl in my way of thinking, the minute i turn to a man and say... i am giving up control to your wisdom... i am giving up my right to be equal to that man. im still waiting to hear an argument against this. But that depends if you see yourself as equal to that man before you do the giving up control thing? For me, I never saw myself as equal anyway. I don't see myself equal to anyone. So when I hand over authority to another, we were not equal in the first place. the.dark.

Missokyst -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 9:45:56 AM)
I am equal in that I am the sum of my parts. Add up my life, skills, experience, and taste .. it pretty much adds up to who I am now. I don't judge myself by anothers yardstick. The fact that I can dominate life, or submit to a man does not make me more or less in my eyes. Kyst

maia09 -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 9:47:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact No, I don't see Myself as equal. I think it would take a greater strength than I have to give to be a submissive to someone such as Myself. Often, I'm honestly in awe of clip. One of the running gags around here is that it takes a lot of work to be Lady Pact. Just imagine what it takes to be Lady Pact's boy. If any person out there thinks that is easy, you have too simple of a view. Bravo Ma'am. Yes i think it's work - pleasurable work, but work - sometimes - uhm not so pleasurable, but all necessary.

maia09 -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 9:51:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl to those who serve, do you feel you are equal to your owner? why or why not? to those who control? do you feel you are equal to those who serve you? why or why not? and to both who do not see yourselves as equal to the other person in your relationsip... do you see that inequality as inferior? Equal is one of those semantic things i think. Who knows what equal really is? For me, no i'm not equal to Master - i am His. i don't own Him, He owns me. i own my dog. Is she equal to me? i don't think so. But it really doesn't matter. i don't view us as whether or not we're equal. i just enjoy who i am.

VampiresLair -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 10:01:08 AM)
Fox and I are equal but opposite, and so we balance one another out. For all my dominating, he submits. I own him, he s owned by me. Without his interest in being mine, I would have no interest in keeping him. DV

sweetgirlserves -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 10:05:32 AM)
I think the issue that is causing the problem is that there is a difference between 'inferior/superior' regarding human value, vs. 'inferior/superior' relating to social order. Just because one is a leader, does not make them a more valuable human being than his/her followers. They have equal value, but different roles. There is a difference between submitting to the authority of another, and being unequal to them. In a Gorean context, many FW often choose to submit to the authority of their Free Companion, but they are still considered equals. ~sgs

Mercnbeth -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 10:32:13 AM)
quote: ...to those who serve, do you feel you are equal to your owner? why or why not?... No. it just doesn't feel that way. Why? this slave worships Him...as stricter, sexier, more healthy, better person, more beautiful, smarter, more confident, funnier, more compassionate, more giving, cooler, more relaxed...this slave couldn't hold a candle to Him in any of those departments. HE is the epitome of the Self-Sufficient, Independent, Self-Made Success. He rely's on no-one to support him, in fact He is the one who supports so many others...from His efforts alone. and...His only addiction is fun! quote: ...and to both who do not see yourselves as equal to the other person in your relationsip... do you see that inequality as inferior?... Yes. it does feel that way. Why? this slave is in awe of Him. she could not possibly deal with the folks he does, daily and make everyone happy with the best solution as an outcome. He is a dedicated, loyal, compassionate person. He provides everything for this slave...and makes the wise choices with regards to the serious issues. He owns this slave's devotion and loyalty, her heart, mind and body...this slave elevates Him as superior to her, in may ways, not just because He is The Master of His slave...He is genuinely a better person, all around.

GYPZYQUEEN -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 10:37:33 AM)
We are equal as HUMAN beings. We are equal in the right to dignity...respect ..honesty and a quality life. GQ

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 10:46:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl borrowed from another thread, this had me wondering last night. the following is an article found discussing equality both in the real sense of the word, and in the sense of it being used in a D/s, BDSM way. http://www.domsub.info/equality.shtml to those who serve, do you feel you are equal to your owner? why or why not? to those who control? do you feel you are equal to those who serve you? why or why not? and to both who do not see yourselves as equal to the other person in your relationsip... do you see that inequality as inferior? I do not see people as 'equal'. To me, equal implies a leveling of the playing field, which, to me, represents a stripping of individual peaks and valleys. Some people are my equals in some areas, and not in others, In some areas, I am superior to another either in terms of expertise, skill, talent, or ambition. In others, I lag behind, and in some I am simply "average". In the same way, though it is a profoundly unpopular position, I do not see -others- as "equal" either. In terms of essential humanity, yes, we are all human, but each of us is instilled with individual skills, talents, expertise, motivation, and perspective that make us better at some things, abysmal at others, and 'average', by whatever the current standard is for the gross average, in the remainder. I do not look for people who strive to be 'equal'. I do not seek out -average-. What I seek out in all of my relationships, including my authority-transfer relationships, are individuals who are -exceptional-. I strive for excellence, and it is not possible to be both 'average' and 'exceptional' at the same time. I seek others in my life who strive for excellence as well -- and their striving encourages me to push myself to new heights. In my authority-exchange relationships, one of the things that I look for is someone who is already seeking excellence in hirself. I consider it a gift and a challenge to find ways to encourage that exemplary attitude and develop greater peaks and greater distance from the 'average' in my servants, and in myself through the process. The structure in our household his -absolutely- hierarchical, and in our house, the servant is -not- equal to the free member in terms of capacity to make decisions and direct the course of the Household's events. However, this does not give a Keeper carte blanche to mistreat a servant -- and, in fact, to me it shows a distinctly poor grasp of management and a weakness of character/laziness of effort to treat a servant in a way that does not encourage hir to strive for excellence. Do I believe that there are certain things to which all humans should be entitled? Yes, I do. I believe that all human beings should be entitled to common courtesy, the basic dignity of having ones humanity recognized, and to have the opportunity to achieve as much as they have the motivation to strive for. Aside from that, to me, equality, like "fair", is a fallacy that we use to justify our propensity for paranoia, diminuation of others' humanity, and self-victimization. Dame Calla

porcelaine -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 11:12:14 AM)
i see both parties as equal. how we elect to relate is another matter. our wants and needs are of equal importance. we may elect to compromise and prioritize these things in a manner that is mutually beneficial and can involve give and take on both sides. i find both of value and worth and don't allow associated behaviors that are consensual on both ends to alter that viewpoint. porcelaine

oceanwinds -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 11:25:19 AM)
In many ways we are equal, and in other ways we will never be equal. He has upper body strength, which I never have had. He is smarter in math then me, and this will not change. He has never been pregnant, and will never will be. There are parts of being female and male that are not the same. Our value to life holds equal opportunity in the areas that we are good at. I am an excellent cook, and I know males who are just as good, perhaps some better and some not. I cannot sew but late hubby was great at that, and made most of our leather things, as well as garments we wore for pagan rituals at times. We both were good with growing flowers and vegs, so is Sir. He is better at focus and mastering his emotions, i am striving for that myself. I believe equal is becoming all you can be in this world. Some are great in logic, others in abstract. Some are better in dealing with other people, some are not. But we all have something of worth to give to this world, hence this is what makes us equal. Ds or Ms is giving the all that you are in that situation. What you give to it has worth.

Level -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 11:26:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl to those who control? do you feel you are equal to those who serve you? why or why not? Yes, we would be equal, just that I'd be in charge. Few things are more moronic than the idea of superiority, either in a gender sense, or a D/s sense.

sirsholly -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 11:37:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl to those who control? do you feel you are equal to those who serve you? why or why not? Yes, we would be equal, just that I'd be in charge. Few things are more moronic than the idea of superiority, either in a gender sense, or a D/s sense. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

lovingpet -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 11:49:39 AM)
We are all human. That is the equal part. We are not comparing a human with an animal or a human with an alien species. From there, we begin the process of differentiation. It is where human beings begin to get very ugly with each other. I do this better, so you are less than (inferior) to me. I will agree, I am inferior to you in that specific area, but my area of superiority can place me at advantage over you. If a small animal can outwit it's predator, then the predator is in danger of starving. It's apparant advantage is size, strength, and agility really doesn't enter the equation. If a person is very low in emotional response and tends to be very calculated, he may well be caught offguard by the passionate reaction of another he has angered and may well be injured or die for his error. When looking at the studies of some of the most predatory humans of modern times, they were almost eerily balanced and advanced in areas that are normally split by a superior/inferior classification. They were capable of both stealth calculation and advanced planning as well as opportunistic and personable. Superiority lies in character. Traits or positions really has nothing to do with it. I am inferior to my dominant partner only inasmuch as our positions dictate. We are both good, valid, and valued people. We are also flawed and occassionally incompetent. It's not a contest. We each have our own contributions to make without which there would be no relationship. One doesn't have the need to feel or be better than the other. We both strive to be excellent human beings. We both expect the full energy and talents of the other so that our relationship can be excellent as well. We are compliments to each other rather than combatants. lovingpet

MasterFireMaam -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 12:04:41 PM)
A slave in our local community wrapped this up nicely for me: We are of equal value but not of equal status. Master Fire

janiebelle -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 12:33:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam A slave in our local community wrapped this up nicely for me: We are of equal value but not of equal status. Master Fire That's a great way of putting it. I have also heard it this way: In any relationship, both parties are essential, but not equal. j

CreativeDominant -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 12:42:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl borrowed from another thread, this had me wondering last night. the following is an article found discussing equality both in the real sense of the word, and in the sense of it being used in a D/s, BDSM way. http://www.domsub.info/equality.shtml to those who serve, do you feel you are equal to your owner? why or why not? to those who control? do you feel you are equal to those who serve you? why or why not? and to both who do not see yourselves as equal to the other person in your relationsip... do you see that inequality as inferior? No, we are not all equal. Somehow along the way, the goals of the founding fathers got screwed up and people began thinking that there should be equal OUTCOME rather than equal OPPORTUNITY but that's for a political thread. There is no equality in relationships either. Sometimes things are going to go more your way and sometimes things are going to go more your partner's way, at least in vanilla relationships. In D/s, if you are really looking at the dynamic, and you have a healthy D/s dynamic that works for you, there really is more equality going on...in terms of outcome...than in many non D/s relationships and that is because the submissive is having his/her wants and needs and desires cared for by the dominant and the dominant is having his/her wants and needs and desires cared for by the submissive. His need to be responsible, her need to serve are being met, etc, etc, etc.. From that abstract position, that is where you find the equality. The inequality comes in in that the dominant has the ability to make final decisions, it is the dominant whose wants and desires and needs (but not basic needs, as discussed in other threads) that come first. The inequality comes in in that the submissive has the right to make something that was not a hard limit before a hard limit now. The submissive has the right, no matter how deeply the dominant owns and controls her, to say "No". The equality comes back in in the recognition by both the submissive and the dominant that abdication of the dominant's responsibilities or the invoking of the choice of "No" by the submissive alters the dynamic. There is equality to be found within the inequality and inequality to be found within the equality. Master FireMa'am's slave acquaintance put it nicely...We are of equal value but not of equal status. That does not make either party inferior or superior nor does it make them equal. It makes them partners who understand that life isn't always fair but on balance, it is what works best.

NihilusZero -> RE: are we all "equal"? (7/1/2009 1:21:16 PM)
"Equality" doesn't mean anything by itself. It's pointless to use the term as anything but an adjective, in which case there's an understood topic being discussed (e.g. 'equal' degree of devotion, 'equal' physical prowess, 'equal' sex drive, 'equal' time spent brushing one's teeth...). So...what exactly are we asking? About the only near-universally important use of the term for (concerning relationships) is in measuring whether there is a somewhat 'equal' level of fulfillment by all individuals in the relationship for being in the relationship. Any other applications of the term to facets of a relationship are phantom projections onto the wants of the individuals in the relationship.

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