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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 4:44:19 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

Punishing people for their subnormal (subhuman even) status though? Sounds a bit dangerous to me as a principle.
It is not their status, LadyE...it is their actions.

So a crime is committed, and rather than holding the person responsible for their actions, lets try to find a physical reason for his behavior? Please....why don't they just say personal responsibility is null and void?

As i said before...many of us have come from the same, or worse, backgrounds as these thugs. Many of us have worked our asses off to get educated, make something of ourselves, and (here's the big one) break the cycle of abuse we endured.  WE did it, and they did not. So...rather than say it is a lack of character on their parts, put them under a microscope and find a physical reason?








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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 5:30:10 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		Lady E, there is a huge part of the American Dream that is based on men and women being given their own futures into their own hands and being rewarded for their accomplishments.

I've got a better idea than the studies you mention.  Look at Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Bill Cosby, etc.  Look at those who grew up poor, with the expectation that they would stay poor and unachieving, and yet managed to overcome thrir obstancles to make names for themselves and for that matter, to be better parents to their own children than their parents had been to them.


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 10:56:15 AM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		I really like the question that LadyE asks.  SirsHolly, I see your point as well.  There are many people that lift themselves up from terrible situations and make successes out of themselves, and that's a great achievement.  But not everybody is wired the same way.  Would I have been able to lift myself up if I had been abused by my parents, and go on to be a success?  I don't know.  To say that some can do it so why can't everybody, well I just don't agree with that.  Some of us just don't have the mental and emotional strength of others.  If parents want to take any kind of credit when their child turns out to be a success, then why should they not have any blame if the child turns out to be a criminal?

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 11:02:20 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

To say that some can do it so why can't everybody, well I just don't agree with that.
Some can...some cannot. A poor background is no excuse for criminal acts. My point is accepting personal responsibility for ones actions, rather than having their behavior blamed on brain chemistry, vitamin deficiency, etc.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 11:41:09 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Natural selection weeds out those with criminal minds… they are less likely to survive to pass on genes or influence human development.

We need each other to survive as a race…although there will always be criminals through physical or environmental means they are not the “norm” and therefore will always be a fringe element in human existence. The “norm” will always persecute the threat to their survival.

I do believe there can be a physical element to a criminal outside the control of that individual. If the time comes when this physical element can be cured or repaired THEN crime can be considered an illness. But until that happens we have no alternative but to isolate and incarcerate or terminate the threats.

Butch


< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/7/2009 11:42:23 AM >

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 11:47:27 AM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		Well upbringing often also controls culture.  You may think that telling the police about a drug dealer is a good thing; in my neighborhood it makes you a snitch, the lowest of the low.  If you tell my neighbors that you are right and they aren't, they will look at you like you're an alien.  What is criminal to you may be a way of living to somebody else.  Drug-dealing... despicable maybe to you and me, a legit way to feed a family to somebody who grew up where I live.  Telling them it is wrong is a different viewpoint from a culture that doesn't relate... a Tale of Two Cities if you will.
I don't know if I got across the point I'm trying to make, my brain is all over, but I think that points of view are also kind of important in this topic.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 11:50:42 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

Drug-dealing... despicable maybe to you and me, a legit way to feed a family to somebody who grew up where I live.
You are saying drug dealing is a legitimate profession in some areas?

Please.


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 12:26:07 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
Well upbringing often also controls culture.  You may think that telling the police about a drug dealer is a good thing; in my neighborhood it makes you a snitch, the lowest of the low.  If you tell my neighbors that you are right and they aren't, they will look at you like you're an alien.  What is criminal to you may be a way of living to somebody else.  Drug-dealing... despicable maybe to you and me, a legit way to feed a family to somebody who grew up where I live.  Telling them it is wrong is a different viewpoint from a culture that doesn't relate... a Tale of Two Cities if you will.
I don't know if I got across the point I'm trying to make, my brain is all over, but I think that points of view are also kind of important in this topic.


Oh I just had to return to this thread to take a crack at this post.....yikes.

I would suggest to you that those who consider "snitching" to be the lowest of the low are *already* the lowest of the low by society's standards. You see, drug dealers sell poison to anyone who can scrape together money for a fix, that includes youngin's and *THAT* is despicable.

Those who are often seen taking a stance against "snitching" are usually those who live on the wrong side of the law, thus they would not like someone telling the cops what they were up to.

To call drug dealing or any other such activity a 'way of life' is insulting to every other person in this country who makes their living without resorting to illegal means. That's like people trying to defend michael vick by saying "it's what he grew up around." Yeah maybe, but that means at some point he learned it was against the law, or else he'd not have known to HIDE what he was doing.

Here's a question...albeit a rhetorical one. If a certain group of people want to claim it's not their fault that they're 'bad guys' and that it's their upbringing and environment....I wonder: do they then advocate sending extermination squads into areas like where they grew up to eliminate future 'bad guys' who can't be 'brought up right' in the first place?

I'm so sick of hearing boo-hoo stories about people not having a good upbringing and using that as an excuse to be a killer, drug dealer, etc. There are so many people who came from shitty beginnings and went on to become something great. The problem is not the upbringing, it's the lack of the desire to put forth effort. Slinging crack is easier than working at McDonald's......aka it's the EASY way out, nothing more, nothing less. It's not "necessary to survive," it's not "the only thing they know." It's simply the thing that requires the least amount of effort.


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 1:50:30 PM   
nelly33


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Status: offline 		first off, I wasn't defending drug dealing, but anybody who thinks that it isn't accepted as just another job in many inner cities is naive.  And to say selling crack is easier than working at McDonalds is also false.  I know mother's of small children that think snitching is wrong, it isn't just people involved in illegal activities that believe it.  As for the dog-fighting thing and Michael Vick example, again, you can look at culture.  Cock-fighting here in the US is illegal, and people can make the same argument that they did against Vick, that it is immoral, and wrong, etc ad nauseum.  However, in many parts of South America, it is legal and a part of the culture.  Are the people that practice cock-fighting down there wrong?  You and I may think so, but to ask people down there, they would argue that you just are closed minded against their culture.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 2:17:32 PM   
Loki45


Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
Status: offline 		Ahhh so much incorrectness. Where do I start?

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
first off, I wasn't defending drug dealing, but anybody who thinks that it isn't accepted as just another job in many inner cities is naive. 


Yeah, it's 'accepted as just another job' by other DRUG DEALERS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
And to say selling crack is easier than working at McDonalds is also false. 


Really? Why don't you talk to a drug dealer, then talk to a minimum wage worker at McDonald's and see who has the bigger 'paycheck' and who works longer hours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
I know mother's of small children that think snitching is wrong, it isn't just people involved in illegal activities that believe it. 


Wanna know why the mother of small children thinks it's wrong? Because snitches get KILLED where she lives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: nelly33
As for the dog-fighting thing and Michael Vick example, again, you can look at culture.  Cock-fighting here in the US is illegal, and people can make the same argument that they did against Vick, that it is immoral, and wrong, etc ad nauseum.  However, in many parts of South America, it is legal and a part of the culture.  Are the people that practice cock-fighting down there wrong?  You and I may think so, but to ask people down there, they would argue that you just are closed minded against their culture.


I'm sorry....I'm from NORTH AMERICA......you know...the United States. Last time I check, so was Michael Vick. So South American customs and laws do not matter here. If Vick wanted to be part of that "culture" he should move there.


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 4:05:16 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Natural selection weeds out those with criminal minds… they are less likely to survive to pass on genes or influence human development.



I would like to see scientific evidence to back this up Butch.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 7:17:23 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I have none...but don't you think it is obvious...many criminals die young...many criminals don't have children...or fewer then those not serving time in prison. This compared to the normal non-criminal who has someone to screw besides big Al his cell mate. To me this means fewer kids to pass on genes and criminals are less likely to influence the course or direction of mankind’s development.

I may be wrong and glad to have you point out flaws in my admittedly casual unsubstantiated deductions.

Butch


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 9:43:18 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Should the criminal be held responsible and punished, or should their inadequacies be treated so as to effect a cure - rehabilitation at its finest, should it be possible?


Poor things.

Tell ya what...lets round them up, give them free housing, medical care, all the drugs they want, pay their tabs at all the best bars/restaurants, unlimited accounts at the finest clothing stores, and anything else their poor lil abused heart desires.

Not only will this make up for an unpleasant upbringing, but it will keep the rest of us safe!



OR we could just execute them publically at age 6, say, by having them torn apart in the arena by rabid wolves. It's not like the little shits are ever going to amount to anything, anyways, and they might as well provide us with some entertainment while we get rid of the little vermin, right?

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 9:46:36 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
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From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Punishing people for their subnormal (subhuman even) status though? Sounds a bit dangerous to me as a principle.
It is not their status, LadyE...it is their actions.

So a crime is committed, and rather than holding the person responsible for their actions, lets try to find a physical reason for his behavior? Please....why don't they just say personal responsibility is null and void?


I'm actually fine with "personal responsibility", but I'd rather have every crime be a capital offense, if we're going that route. A quick bullet to the head is far more efficient and humane than five years of being ass-raped in a cage.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/7/2009 10:03:53 PM   
MstrPBK


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Status: offline 		WHOM did this study, and why were they ASKED to do it, and what was the premise statement OF the study.
My gut feeling is that there's something skewed here.
The best skewed study will win over Mice AND Men much of the time.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/8/2009 1:55:13 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I have none...but don't you think it is obvious...many criminals die young...many criminals don't have children...or fewer then those not serving time in prison. This compared to the normal non-criminal who has someone to screw besides big Al his cell mate. To me this means fewer kids to pass on genes and criminals are less likely to influence the course or direction of mankind’s development.

I may be wrong and glad to have you point out flaws in my admittedly casual unsubstantiated deductions.

Butch



Butch here is just one link I found. The situation here in the UK was exactly the same where I grew up. It seems to me the statistic shown below proves there is a link to circumstances, upbringing and genetics.

" Nearly half of the 2 million inmates in state prisons across the USA — 48% — say they have relatives who also have been incarcerated, according to a Justice Department report in 2004, the most recent comprehensive survey of state prison populations. "

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-01-28-crime-families_N.htm

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/8/2009 4:52:24 AM   
sirsholly


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From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

Should the criminal be held responsible and punished, or should their inadequacies be treated so as to effect a cure - rehabilitation at its finest, should it be possible?


Poor things.

Tell ya what...lets round them up, give them free housing, medical care, all the drugs they want, pay their tabs at all the best bars/restaurants, unlimited accounts at the finest clothing stores, and anything else their poor lil abused heart desires.

Not only will this make up for an unpleasant upbringing, but it will keep the rest of us safe!



OR we could just execute them publically at age 6, say, by having them torn apart in the arena by rabid wolves. It's not like the little shits are ever going to amount to anything, anyways, and they might as well provide us with some entertainment while we get rid of the little vermin, right?

Excuse me? I am talking about adult criminals. What are you talking about?


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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/8/2009 5:03:51 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Look at Bill Clinton


Arrggh! Bill Clinton did not grow up poor. I am so sick of this fucking lie. I grew up in the same town Clinton did, Hot Springs, AR. His stepfather whose name he took, owned one of the largest car dealerships here in the 50's and 60's. Despite Clinton's scumbag disparaging remarks about his stepfather, he was not a drunken wife beater. People all over town loved the man. His mother was a registered nurse. His grandparents owned a grocery store down in Hope and despite his bullshit claims, they did not sell groceries to blacks.

Bill Clinton grew up in a middle class home, and I dare say it was upper middle class for this town and that time period. When I was growing up, and after he became President, his mother spent every waking moment betting on the ponies at our local racetrack. His mother's third husband Dick Kelly was also extremely well off. I went to high school with Dick Kelly's grandaughter, which was Bill's step neice. She lived in a huge house; a lot bigger than mine. She was the biggest tramp in our school. I was at a party at her place when her folks were out of town, and four dudes ran a train on her. I guess it runs in the family .

So stop believing this huge lie. Bill Clinton grew up with a lot more advantages than most people in Hot Springs. We aren't exactly a wealthy town.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/8/2009 5:08:05 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

Despite Clinton's scumbag disparaging remarks about his stepfather, he was not a drunken wife beater. People all over town loved the man.
Yeah? Were you in that home every night? No? Then you have no clue what did or did not occur.

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RE: s'not my fault m'lud - its me upbringing - 7/8/2009 5:14:09 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

Yeah? Were you in that home every night? No? Then you have no clue what did or did not occur.


I know what people told me about Roger Clinton Sr. A lot of the old timers around here said they never saw him drink excessively. He managed to run and extremely successful car dealership with his brother. He lived up on upper Park Avenue here, which at the time was as ritzy as you can get. It's a run down part of town now where all the crack whores and dealers congregate, but it was once the place to be if you had money. I know for a fact that he lied about his grandparents allowing blacks to come into their store and buy on credit. It was illegal to do that back then, and everyone that lived in Hope at that time will tell you that Bill's grandpa hated blacks. He is an absolute liar. Bill Clinton was a spoiled little fat kid that played in the marching band . Being in the marching band in rural Arkansas in the 50's and 60's was not the mark of a blue collar kid.

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