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ORIGINAL: Loki45

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ORIGINAL: nelly33
In Buffalo, where I live, some people do fight dogs, as part of the culture they were raised in.  Not all American culture is the same. 

Ahh but in *all* America, dog fighting is a crime, as is drug dealing. SO it doesn't matter what culture they think they come from or whether they see it as a way of life. It's CRIME pure and simple.

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ORIGINAL: nelly33
And some of the people that deal with drugs where I live do it even though the pay is poor...

If that's true, then they don't have the smarts God gave the common dog. And they deserve whatever they get as a result of their ways. That's why I always smile when I see news articles about someone either being thrown in jail or sent to the morgue because of their criminal ways. They chose the life, they get to deal with the consequences of that choice. For that, I have zero sympathy.

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ORIGINAL: nelly33
to your first point, I agree that it is a crime, and I agree that both things are wrong, IN MY MIND, but the fact that something is illegal alone doesn't make it wrong. 

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ORIGINAL: nelly33
As for the second part, it is true.  People get involved in drugs even though the pay is poor, because sometimes they don't see any way out.  Your second part of the statement shows that you haven't really ever been around the culture I'm talking about.  And to smile when someone goes to the morgue or jail?  I'd say that finding joy in others misfortunes isn't really much better than drug dealing...

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ORIGINAL: beargonewild
Everyone who came from a disadvantaged childhood, or lack of good nutrition growing up or experienced mild to severe abuse are able to walk away from that and become productive citizens and not criminals. The end result is the individual still has that fee will and the choice to decide to be pro-active about their situation and not wallow in playing the victim for the rest of their lives. Reading study after study after study about a criminal mind and poor education/poor nutrition etc only explain a possible connection which still, leaves a large margin of error. To solely blame extraneous influences and not consider the poor choices a criminal makes is simply a bloody cop out on personal responsibility. Not all of us who got a raw deal in childhood grew into a criminal and not all who had a perfect upbringing became a criminal.

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anyone who claims that drug-dealing is easy work is sadly misinformed. and just because two different people were raised in bad enviroments does not make the environments the same. I think that you and I are just from different parts of town I suppose.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

These people are research scientists at various universities R - they are researching and finding this stuff.

It is for we the people (or, our masters rather) to decide what to do with the information.

Punishing people for their subnormal (subhuman even) status though? Sounds a bit dangerous to me as a principle.

E

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ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

"Personal responsibility" is a load of hooey that people come up with to feel special and better about themselves. It's a cop-out to keep people from coiling up in sheer terror, realizing just how quickly everything can fall apart around them.

There aren't "good" and "bad" people; there's just shit that happens. Some people are born damaged. Some people are damaged by circumstance. And some people just never get a break. And the rest of us get to sit on our high-horses and talk about "personal responsibility" and "poor choices".

And I'm not talking about wallowing or playing the victim, here. I'm talking about straining your elbow patting yourself on the back for coming out of childhood with most of your drive, ambition, and sense of community intact. Not everyone gets to have that, and it's nothing particularly special about us that we do. We were just the lucky ones.

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ORIGINAL: nelly33

anyone who claims that drug-dealing is easy work is sadly misinformed.  and just because two different people were raised in bad enviroments does not make the environments the same.  I think that you and I are just from different parts of town I suppose.

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ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Interesting thought, laws exist to be broken.

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ORIGINAL: beargonewild
"Unless we have walked in another man's shoes, we cannot possibly know the effects that his dysfunctional environment has had upon him over his lifetime"

True yet the bare bones truth is we as humans still have free will and the ability to make the choices which leads us away from an environment of dysfunction and change that into functionality. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional life doesn't have to overcome the odds and become a world leader or a rocket scientist, just make better choices for themselves to have a life with less dysfunction and an asset to themself and to society. The success stories of overcoming all odds to be a better person is merely taking steps and choosing something other then being a victim of life's circumstances.

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ORIGINAL: beargonewild

"Unless we have walked in another man's shoes, we cannot possibly know the effects that his dysfunctional environment has had upon him over his lifetime"

True yet the bare bones truth is we as humans still have free will and the ability to make the choices which leads us away from an environment of dysfunction and change that into functionality. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional life doesn't have to overcome the odds and become a world leader or a rocket scientist, just make better choices for themselves to have a life with less dysfunction and an asset to themself and to society. The success stories of overcoming all odds to be a better person is merely taking steps and choosing something other then being a victim of life's circumstances.

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ORIGINAL: nelly33
these are not "nuances".  For many, drug-dealing is not a quick buck.  To assume it is, is to be ignorant of the way it really works.   Ialdabaoth, I really like the post you made as well.  I like what bear said as well.  I am not advocating criminality in my posts, I am just stating what most credited sociologists take as fact, (sources, Gaines, and also Elliot Currie, and many more.)  Thinking that drug-dealing is a quick buck is listening to what the media tells you.  It is not fast money for most of the people involved.  You would be better to think of it as a corporation like Wallmart.  There are CEO's and the like, but they are far outwieghed by middle management, and the vast majority of the people are just peons in the scheme of things.  I also like slaveboys post. 
Now Loki, I have provided sources that show that most drug dealers are not actually earners... you can look them up where I have said.  To try to get back to the topic in some way...
If upbringing should not be a factor in how an adult turns out, then why are people from group homes, or from the inner city dissproportionately into crime?  Is it just a matter of great coincidence that those from urban areas commit more crime?  To say upbringing isn't a factor, and to say that everyone can make themselves a good, law-abiding citizen, well then that just "proves" that those in the city are worse people, and that minorites are worse people, since statistically they commit more crimes.  I don't believe that, and I don't think anybody else here does either.  But how else would you suggest the statistics?

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ORIGINAL: subfever

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ORIGINAL: beargonewild

"Unless we have walked in another man's shoes, we cannot possibly know the effects that his dysfunctional environment has had upon him over his lifetime"

True yet the bare bones truth is we as humans still have free will and the ability to make the choices which leads us away from an environment of dysfunction and change that into functionality. Anyone who has grown up in a dysfunctional life doesn't have to overcome the odds and become a world leader or a rocket scientist, just make better choices for themselves to have a life with less dysfunction and an asset to themself and to society. The success stories of overcoming all odds to be a better person is merely taking steps and choosing something other then being a victim of life's circumstances.

Yes, humans with clear, functional minds have free will and the ability to make choices to move away from dysfunction. 

But as I previously quoted, we are not all wired the same. Some have different strengths and weaknesses. Some have different neurochemical responses to certain stimuli. Some have a different and learned perception of what it takes to survive.

How different is this from someone getting sick from prolonged exposure to a biohazard in his immediate environment? Would you judge him negatively too?

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ORIGINAL: nelly33

I am trying to make the point that there are people that do see it as legit, and your point of view does not prevail in all parts of the country.  If it sounds like I am advocating it, it is because I am trying to get my point across.  In one of your earlier posts, you said that you despised those that sell drugs because they sell garbage to people.  It sounds like you have sympathy for the addicts, but didn't they make the wrong choices as well?  Do you have sympathy for them?  If so, why?  They made their choices just like everybody else as well.

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ORIGINAL: nelly33
I am trying to make the point that there are people that do see it as legit, and your point of view does not prevail in all parts of the country. 

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ORIGINAL: nelly33
In one of your earlier posts, you said that you despised those that sell drugs because they sell garbage to people.  It sounds like you have sympathy for the addicts, but didn't they make the wrong choices as well?  Do you have sympathy for them?  If so, why?  They made their choices just like everybody else as well.