RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate first?

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RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/9/2009 5:01:43 PM

Venatrix

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Ah, I'm glad you wrote what you wrote, because it allows me to clarify. I didn't mean to imply that a femdom won't take her sub's needs into consideration. Far from it, though I'm positive that there are some femdoms who won't.

For example, I don't get nearly as much enjoyment out of topping someone if I'm only doing things I like and he doesn't. If he likes not liking them, that's fine, too. But if he really doesn't like them, then the activity doesn't do nearly as much for me as it would otherwise. The thing is, a lot of male subs don't really care if you like what you're doing to them as long as they get their fetish met. I don't know a single femdom who will top someone if she gets nothing out of it, so that's what I meant by "I'll top you the way I like."

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

Post #: 61

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/9/2009 6:40:14 PM

Andalusite

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Joined: 1/25/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
On reflection, I think she may have been feeding me horseshit. She invited me to believe that she'd been a 24/7, naked slave to a master and mistress for some years in Italy. Then she'd had a full-time lesbian relationship. Now, though, she'd decided that she'd had enough of all that and wanted to be a dominant to a male sub. Basically, she didn't know what she wanted. She was fruitcake, wasn't she?

I don't see anything wrong with all of the above, or with deciding that she wants something different this time. The snark about her nose sounds like rather petty sour grapes, and there certainly wasn't anything in your post to indicate that she was crazy or weird or deserved to be called a fruitcake. A guy lowering his eyes or doing other submissive body language can be really hot if it seems to come naturally to him, but playing it up makes it come across as fake, which is a turn-off.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
atypicalsub,
she and I didn't talk much before meeting. This was wrong and made me uncomfortable. I'd try to avoid that again.
RedMagic,She said that she'd had female slaves before. I presume she knew something about dominating, though not of a male. The fact that she'd had female slaves (and was bi), plus the fact that she'd been a sub herself before, made me wonder whether she did actually know what she wanted. But as for . . .
Could you talk to her again, or meet her again? I certainly didn't see any red flags in what you posted. She might just be new. . . .
No, there wasn't any spark and I wouldn't want to try again. I really don't think there was anything there.
Lockit,
I got no sense that she even wanted to discuss anything. We didn't move beyond vanilla - and cool vanilla at that. She wasn't what you'd call a 'communicator'. And, like I said, I find it very difficult to 'be sub' till I know a woman and I get on in a vanilla way. It feels too false otherwise.
No luck with that first one and I shan't pursue it.

When I was still looking, I usually talked on the phone and via e-mail a few times, until we had some idea of if we had things to talk about, but I don't think it's "wrong" to meet early, and I did so a couple of times.

I read a quote somewhere "women are like crockpots and men are like microwaves." It's not universally true, but it frequently takes me a couple of times of playing with someone before I get a lot of sparks. On a first date in a vanilla location with lots of people around, sparks are pretty darned unlikely, but I might pull his hair or bite his neck or something when we're hugging goodbye afterward, if all else went well. Then again, I might not, even if it *did* go well, it depends on a lot of different factors. If you're going to write off every woman who you don't have instant chemistry with, you'll pass up a lot of possibilities who might grow into more with a little patience. In that case, you get what you deserve (or don't get, I suppose). You yourself just said that it's difficult for you to "be sub" until you get to know a woman and get along on a vanilla basis, so how can you expect her to "be dominant" when you've just met and don't know each other yet?

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 62

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/9/2009 7:04:53 PM

Venatrix

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Anda, I've never heard the metaphor about crockpots and microwaves, but it definitely resonates. Sometimes I'm on the high setting, sometimes I'm on the low setting, and sometimes, like now, I'm unplugged. But things still need to cook slowly, regardless. The problem with microwaves is the product comes out hot on the outside, but cold on the inside.

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 63

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/9/2009 7:36:27 PM

PeonForHer

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Anda,

The snark about her nose was meant to sound like petty sour grapes. I was taking the p*** out of myself, not her. The 'lowering the eyes' thing does come across as fake, as well - as indeed I discovered. For various reasons her story about her past, and what she felt like doing now, didn't ring entirely true.

There wasn't instant chemistry partly because we didn't have a vanilla connection. I tried, afterwards, but as I expected, she didn't reply to my last email. I'm not an experienced sub but I've been around the block enough to know when a connection with someone will work on at least a platonic, vanilla level. This one wasn't going to happen. It just took me a short while to accept it.

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Post #: 64

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/9/2009 7:56:17 PM

Andalusite

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Peon, I've got lots of experience, on both sides of the coin, and still have no clue whatsoever if I'm compatible with someone in terms of vanilla or D/s on the first date. However, I can know when it *won't* work, so I'll defer to your judgement on that point. I do think that saying nasty stuff about her is uncalled for, even if you meant it to make fun of yourself.

I had a few submissive men (and a couple of dominant ones) get confused by my flexibility and openness to a lot of different relationship dynamics. With most of them, I was able to clarify very quickly/easily, but several of the submissive guys just couldn't seem to wrap their minds around the idea that for me, it's about the interaction with an individual person rather than being drawn to a specific role. For that matter, while I wasn't actively seeking women, that was a possibility too, just relatively unlikely.

Don't jump to the conclusion that lowering your eyes is fake - a different woman might draw that reaction from you without you even thinking about it! In that case, you don't need to suppress it, but don't pretend/fake it when you aren't feeling it.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 7/9/2009 8:01:09 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 65

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/9/2009 7:59:50 PM

Andalusite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
The problem with microwaves is the product comes out hot on the outside, but cold on the inside.

I agree, and it left *me* cold, too!

I've had some similar experiences with this in the past, "What do I need to do to turn you on, what do you like, etc." It's hard to pin down to one specific thing, and what I love from submissive A might come across all wrong from submissive B, switch C, or Dominant D. Occasionally, I just didn't want a relationship or play or to deal with guys at all, though that didn't come up very often, and mostly when I'd specifically had a promising possibility go south in an upsetting way.

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 66

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/9/2009 8:53:05 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Anda,

The snark about her nose was meant to sound like petty sour grapes. I was taking the p*** out of myself, not her. The 'lowering the eyes' thing does come across as fake, as well - as indeed I discovered. For various reasons her story about her past, and what she felt like doing now, didn't ring entirely true.

There wasn't instant chemistry partly because we didn't have a vanilla connection. I tried, afterwards, but as I expected, she didn't reply to my last email. I'm not an experienced sub but I've been around the block enough to know when a connection with someone will work on at least a platonic, vanilla level. This one wasn't going to happen. It just took me a short while to accept it.

Here's the part that's confusing Me.

From the vibe that I'm getting from this thread, I think the vanilla part is getting downplayed. When I do first meets of this nature, the conversation isn't ALL about D/s. Some of it might be, depending on the conversations had prior to meeting, but that's not the entire conversation. What am I missing here?

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(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 67

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/9/2009 9:26:07 PM

stella41b

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

From the vibe that I'm getting from this thread, I think the vanilla part is getting downplayed. When I do first meets of this nature, the conversation isn't ALL about D/s. Some of it might be, depending on the conversations had prior to meeting, but that's not the entire conversation. What am I missing here?
[/color]

I'm in agreement with LadyPact here. Though it's not the exact same situation in my experience the initial 'vanilla stages' have been quite heavily influential as to what happened next. It's almost like you start out generally on D/s, then move towards vanilla as you get to know each other and establish some sort of chemistry or at least a very strong rapport, and then it moves back towards D/s.

The coming together of dominant and submissive, especially a female dominant, is something I find very similar as a game of chess, where the getting to know you stage has an opening, development and an endgame. In the game of chess the main objective is of course checkmate, but then you have to think about protecting your major pieces, King, Queen, Rook, Knight, and establishing a strong pawn formation. So to when setting up a D/s relationship the main objective for both is to find fulfillment in a well-rounded relationship, but then there are the whys and wherefores, the 'what I enjoy', 'what I can do', 'what I cannot do' the emotional signals and cues, conversations, contact, nuances and so on.

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(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 68

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/10/2009 2:17:11 AM

PeonForHer

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Don't jump to the conclusion that lowering your eyes is fake - a different woman might draw that reaction from you without you even thinking about it! In that case, you don't need to suppress it, but don't pretend/fake it when you aren't feeling it.

True. It's happened before and it wasn't faked and felt great.

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(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 69

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/10/2009 2:25:04 AM

PeonForHer

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From the vibe that I'm getting from this thread, I think the vanilla part is getting downplayed. When I do first meets of this nature, the conversation isn't ALL about D/s. Some of it might be, depending on the conversations had prior to meeting, but that's not the entire conversation. What am I missing here?

The meeting was entirely vanilla, LP. I went to see if I could make friends, primarily. Beforehand - well, there wasn't very much of a beforehand. She wanted to meet very quickly. She got 'passionate', quite suddenly, but was very, very cool when we met. It was odd. Maybe my breath smells or I have disturbing eyebrows. Who knows? I went home feeling quite cold, bleak and bitter, but got over it. I wanted to move on.

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Post #: 70

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/10/2009 6:23:30 AM

Venatrix

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Peon, I'd say the least disturbing thing about you is your eyebrows. Getting back to what I wrote earlier, every dominant is going to be pleased by different things. If you kept lowering your eyes with me, I'd probably ask what was wrong with you that you couldn't look me in the eye (hmm, maybe it *is* the eyebrows). It's just going to be hit or miss.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 71

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/10/2009 6:41:23 AM

PeonForHer

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Don't worry, V, I wouldn't do any eye-lowering with you - unless you raise one of your knees too suddenly, that is.

Before anyone else comes on to advise me that eye-lowering is a bad idea unless it happens unconsciously, could I just gently point out that I've got that now?

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Post #: 72

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/10/2009 6:46:13 AM

Venatrix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Don't worry, V, I wouldn't do any eye-lowering with you - unless you raise one of your knees too suddenly, that is.

Darling, if I raise one of my knees too suddenly, your eyes will shoot through the top your head.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 73

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/10/2009 9:47:39 AM

Bill48

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Joined: 6/16/2009
From: NY
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This is an interesting an informative thread for another new new to trying to understand the dynamics of the relationship(s). I have never acted on it, but I have submissive fantasies, and enjoy it very much when a female takes an active role in lovemaking. But I get a sense this isn't about making love or being sexual. My fantasies involve women who are strong but basically benign. Not sure if I want to be a submissive outside of the erotic stimulation aspect of it -- perhaps I have a very one sided or unidimensional view of the process.

This is my first post, and I would be happy to hear from anyone who would want to help me understand and appreciate the process initally on-line, and if the vibe is there maybe go a little further,

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 74

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/10/2009 4:02:14 PM

MistressTaboo

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Ok my way of thinking is a little different...I live next to one of the largest Army bases in the US...90% of my boys are Army or retired Army. My boys come and go depending on the Army's whim. So I can't afford to be shy. If I meet one I want to play I have to make the first move.

Normally I email once or twice make sure we have the same interests and then I move for a meeting. At one point with my schedule I met 4 different subs in the same bar in the same week. The bar owner was starting to give me funny looks.

If I'm interested in someone I make a lot of eye contact. I listen to their answers to the questions I ask. I ask vanilla questions and BDSM questions, I change them up to keep them off balance and to see if they can keep up with me. If I like them I move them from the bar to a booth. I sit next to them and I find reasons to touch their arms...normally they have a Tattoo of some kind so I will touch it and ask about it. I can honestly say that ALL of the keepers...when I touched their arm they immediately dropped their eyes and you could feel them just sigh happily. I was making the first move, most guys know enough to know if a woman finds a reason to touch you she likes you. But I tease them and flirt with them while talking.

There was a few that asked me if they could use the restroom (these tend to be long interviews) and I would tease them and ask them are they sure they could where they asking for my permission? My long time boy had served before so he flat out asked me Ma'ma my I please use the restroom.

For me it goes like this...I get 50 emails...of those I meet maybe 15 and of those I play 6 and of those...I keep 1 maybe 2 till the Army moves them. Which is anywhere from 6 weeks to a year. I can't afford to play Who's the Domme or will I switch for you. I'm the Domme, I make the first moves and I decide if I'm keeping you or not. So don't blow it because with 10k boys across the street and more coming in each month...you can and will be replaced. I know it sounds terrible...but I don't have the energy or the will to play around. Now of the keepers? We talk before and after scenes, we email, text, they come to dinner we take them to parties...but they have earned my attention. And in that first interview they have shown in some small fashion they know who is in charge.

Peon...if I had to guess...she didn't know what she wanted...and once she got what she thought she wanted...she realized you were probably more sub than she could of handled...in other words you scared the crap out of her!

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(in reply to Bill48)

Post #: 75

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/10/2009 7:28:59 PM

hardbodysub

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quote:

The problem with microwaves is the product comes out hot on the outside, but cold on the inside.

Not if you follow the instructions, especially "uncover and stir".

(in reply to Venatrix)

Post #: 76

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/12/2009 11:11:55 AM

TexasMaam

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What a great question.

After some thought on the matter, I realize that all of my D/s relationships, except one, were the direct result of a male displaying a submissive mannerism deliberately to attract My attention in hopes I would respond as a Domme.

I've considered this inquiry before, and have come to the conclusion that My height simply attracted the subs who have sought Me out.

At 6 ft, it's easy for Me to take 'command' of a room or a gathering in a way that exudes a graceful sort of languid confidence.

In every situation where I have been approached by a submale hoping for a nod in his direction, it has been the sub who has approached Me, after having observed Me in a group or gathering. It may have been a BDSM activity, such as a munch or a party, but as often as not it has been a community event or social event that I happened to attend.

There is one single exception and that was My sub bobbi ~ we met online at the old yahoo venue long ago. I approached him, as a Domme, he responded as a quiet but excited puppy. Our relationship went to real time after six months online then lasted over 6 years.

Today, if I were unattached, it's difficult to say what I might do. I doubt that I would seek out a BDSM activity to attend.

If, however, I were unattached, and found myself in a social setting, be it a symphony, a party, a community event, or the like, I would probably respond as a Domme to a submissive male approach that was obviously geared towards drawing My attention.

Does that make Me an 'easy' Domme?

lolol how funny. That's a really funny thought. Great post.

; )

TM

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Post #: 77

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/12/2009 11:16:22 AM

PeonForHer

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Peon...if I had to guess...she didn't know what she wanted...and once she got what she thought she wanted...she realized you were probably more sub than she could of handled...in other words you scared the crap out of her!

Thanks for that, Mistress T - but . . . . no, I don't think I scared her. On the other hand, she was pretty inscrutable in many ways - I could be wrong..

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Post #: 78

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/12/2009 11:26:35 AM

PeonForHer

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Well, I've had an enlightening email on this.

A domme asked her sub about their getting together. Their separate memories were entirely different: each thought that he/she had made the first move and had 'led the way'.

I understand that in the vanilla world girls are traditionally advised to lead a man, but subtly, so as to let him think that he's made the first move. On the other hand if a woman does make all the initial moves and it's obvious to the man, he shouldn't - if he's a gentleman - acknowledge that should anyone ask later on. Funny. I wonder if the rules on that bit of etiquette are reversed in polite femdom/malesub society.

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Post #: 79

RE: Does the sub submit first, or the dominant dominate... - 7/12/2009 11:30:06 AM

TexasMaam

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lolol now THAT's interesting, on both counts.

I like your style, pfh, I like your style.

fun read. thanks.

TM

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