RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it?

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tazzygirl -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 6:59:17 AM)
FR too many pages to read through. I have no problems with collars.. or leashes.. most kids would think they are playing dress up. i have no problem with a submissive stance... i tend to heel quite naturally. no one has ever commented on it besides the man in my life. a playful swat on the bottom typically gets people to smile or laugh, after they see the person swatted laughing. kids think its great to see because an adult is getting swatted. a full blown spanking? no thank you. too many would view it as abusive, and rightly so. i have no issues with same sex couples being demonstrative in public... to a point... and its the same point as those hetero couples. sex acts dont belong in a public venue. i dont want to walk up on a woman giving a man a blow job.. nor do i wish to see a man giving one either. if they are behind a building.. its.. opps.. sorry.. and i back away. i feel that if you know the public will cross your path while in the act... then dont act. we have to live with our neighbors. i dont believe PDA's should be halted... just moderated to protect the sensibilities of those around. but, i also believe if one couple can hold hands, hug, kiss, ect... then all couples can.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:01:04 AM)
quote: whoa...where did that come from? I could not care less if two homosexuals want to hold hands in public, any more that two heterosexuals. Oh, that's okay to your 'community standard'? Which ones then fall into the "boorish & rude" category that you [sm=agree.gif]? Different races mixing? Same sex bathrooms? Hell, a generation ago, different race bathrooms and drinking fountains were the 'community standard'. More [sm=agree.gif] if you lived in those times? I guess Mrs Parks would have been considered such for making such a fuss over something as mundane as a bus seat. Someone suggested there was a "classy way" to breast feed!? It's been a while, is 'Le Leche' doing presentations on this, or is "class" just something you have or don't? The same person felt it best not to parade or let the world know that you are gay and proudly displaying such in parades and other public events for the fear of causing a backlash. I guess were he on the same bus, he would have tackled Rose. It's good to know some people have the pride and confidence to be out there and represent that what they enjoy publicly. There are too many self loathing individuals who keep others in the closet by the disgust they have for themselves. Maybe the solution is that before walking into a park people should be required to disclose what they are planning on doing to do and post it. That way, whether they are going to breast feed a baby, hold hands, kiss, or walk their partner on a leash; any close minded person finding it "boorish & rude" or even disgusting, can be forewarned and not enter. Or is the segregation suggested better served by restricting behaviors to certain days? Standards evolve. The government takes enough freedom of choice away to give it up, or not support any display of it because YOU are offended. I'm offended by the hypocrisy being expressed.

LaTigresse -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:02:27 AM)
I was thinking about this thread this morning and I think it all comes down to something my great aunt used to say. (Envision a woman, that looked like Eleanor Roosevelt, with a strong New Orleans accent.) "Honey there is a difference between being born poor white trash and behaving like poor white trash. The first you have no choice, the second you do." She had many sentences that would start with "A lady............." Now granted, a great deal of her "A lady....."s were things I don't particularly care about. After all, she was well into her old age when I was just a wee one. But when I look at the people I look up to, the people I respect and hold in high regard, they have a certain class. A certain dignity, way of conducting themselves. There is a reason they are respected. Now, I don't feel I need to always wear a slip under my dress, or stockings, wear gloves and a hat when going outside, like my great aunt. But I do remember a certain graciousness and dignity, a manner of personal conduct, that still gains a person a certain reciprocal treatment. I like that. I strive to maintain some of that. Not because of legal rights, not to garner any sort of public attention, but because it is the way I enjoy being treated in return. So, I guess if people want to be perceived as trash (to use my great aunt's words) and they are operating well within their legal rights, more power to them. If they are happy playing in that gutter, I don't really care. I just don't have to get down in the garbage with them. I am quite happy maintaining my rights of self expression within boundaries of dignity and decency towards others.

beargonewild -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:03:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: I take it that everyone agreeing and applauding this supports the "right wing" position of many communities in the US concerning same sex partners holding hands and showing affection to each other. How "self centered" of them to show their love for their partner in public! Bear..as one that agreed with Callas post, i take offense to the above. If it was meant in a sarcastic light, fine. I did not see it that way. I interpreted the fact that you may have misconstrued the overall point being made. If that's the case then I think it's time I step back from this discussion for now. Not that it hasn't been an eye opener but because I'm getting to caught up in the finer logistics and getting too defensive and not remaining objective.

sirsholly -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:17:31 AM)
quote: I'm offended by the hypocrisy being expressed. Shame. Sorry you see me as a hypocrite. I stated previously that if it was just me, i would not give a dead rats ass what people do in public. Hell...go ahead and have a public suck-off in the toilet paper aisle of WallyWorld...if i was offended i would turn around and go the other way...otherwise i would simply stand there and laugh at you. But it is generally not just me. I have a very young child, and i have the right to take him into a public place without having to attempt to explain behavior which he is too young to understand.

sirsholly -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:26:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I was thinking about this thread this morning and I think it all comes down to something my great aunt used to say. (Envision a woman, that looked like Eleanor Roosevelt, with a strong New Orleans accent.) "Honey there is a difference between being born poor white trash and behaving like poor white trash. The first you have no choice, the second you do." She had many sentences that would start with "A lady............." Now granted, a great deal of her "A lady....."s were things I don't particularly care about. After all, she was well into her old age when I was just a wee one. But when I look at the people I look up to, the people I respect and hold in high regard, they have a certain class. A certain dignity, way of conducting themselves. There is a reason they are respected. Now, I don't feel I need to always wear a slip under my dress, or stockings, wear gloves and a hat when going outside, like my great aunt. But I do remember a certain graciousness and dignity, a manner of personal conduct, that still gains a person a certain reciprocal treatment. I like that. I strive to maintain some of that. Not because of legal rights, not to garner any sort of public attention, but because it is the way I enjoy being treated in return. So, I guess if people want to be perceived as trash (to use my great aunt's words) and they are operating well within their legal rights, more power to them. If they are happy playing in that gutter, I don't really care. I just don't have to get down in the garbage with them. I am quite happy maintaining my rights of self expression within boundaries of dignity and decency towards others. Damn...i adore you!!!!!!! [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif]

Bella1965 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:32:35 AM)
G'morning all: quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch however, I don't deign to engage this person in any further discussions. Just can't help yourself, can you? chuckling Making disparaging remarks about a person's appearance and clothes in a pissy tone isn't flaming? Apparently, you have a complete lack of understanding what constitutes flaming. I could make similar comments about yours, in different degrees, but I'm not that rude or condescending. A lesson you need to learn. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

Mercnbeth -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:40:35 AM)
quote: Hell...go ahead and have a public suck-off in the toilet paper aisle of WallyWorld...if i was offended i would turn around and go the other way...otherwise i would simply stand there and laugh at you. But it is generally not just me. I have a very young child, and i have the right to take him into a public place without having to attempt to explain behavior which he is too young to understand. Ah, so we've gone from the broad "individual freedoms" to the specific of a public suck off in the toilet paper aisle of WallyWorld". Good - we're starting a list. I'd enjoin in laughing and move on too. However, if your child is "too young to understand" what explaining works? Is, "those people were showing they really like each other. I don't think people should do that here or in public, I don't like seeing it, lets go to another aisle" too broad? Granted a silly, "Didn't you hear that fart? His friend is just trying to re-inflate him"; may not convey the lack of appropriateness in public sentiment that you want to convey. quote: guess if people want to be perceived as trash (to use my great aunt's words) and they are operating well within their legal rights, more power to them. If they are happy playing in that gutter, I don't really care. I just don't have to get down in the garbage with them. I am quite happy maintaining my rights of self expression within boundaries of dignity and decency toward others. Excellent! I agree! I just have a difference of opinion as to what is "playing in that gutter". I also don't play in every gutter, but am first in line to stand up and represent support for any "gutter" play two consenting individuals can think up. If I see a "gutter" that I don't like - I utilize my freedom to walk away, not judge, not berate, and not having to figure out if MY standards of "boorish and rude" behavior should be the only standard. Should observing any such behavior for the short period of time before I notice it, get seen by any children; if it has a long term permanent, or even short term detrimental impact - it's MY parenting that caused that, and not a quick glance of any activity.

SteelofUtah -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:50:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: I'm offended by the hypocrisy being expressed. But it is generally not just me. I have a very young child, and i have the right to take him into a public place without having to attempt to explain behavior which he is too young to understand. holly this is not directly at you but anyone who says the above bolded section. Could SOMEONE ANYONE tell me exactly what RIGHT that is? I know I have the Right to Speak my Mind, I have the Right to Religion, I have the right to bear arms. What Right is the above included in? I can't find one. Steel

LaTigresse -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:51:42 AM)
Which all comes down to personal integrity really and not necessarily what ALL of us which to push onto others. I am not going to see someone playing in the gutter and stand on the curb berating them. However I will judge them, it is human nature. Judgement in and of itself is not a negative. BUT, a large part of my own personal integrity would be to simply raise an eyebrow and walk away chuckling at their crassness. The judgement is that I find their behaviour offensive and not only would I not want to participate, I don't want to watch. On the flip side, while I would more than likely not create a scene out of it and tell the person/s what I thought, I think if we are going to make spectacles of ourselves we also have to support other's rights to make judgements, rude comments, and berate. Either can be perceived as boorish and offensive. The only difference is which opinion you are supporting at the moment. I fully expect that IF I do something that others will see as offensive in public, I am opening myself up to condemnation for it. Two sides of the coin. If I am within my legal rights and they are within their legal rights, both are acceptable. It is the foundation for our democratic society. Freedom of expression, whether we agree with that expression or not.

Bella1965 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:53:54 AM)
G'mornging all: quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I'm afraid that, philosophically, I have to agree with the teddy bear on this one... While individual freedoms are vital (and most everyone here has heard my diatribe on personal freedoms and responsibilities), I think that we, individually, have a responsibility to consider the sensibilities of those around us when we decide how we are going to PRESENT our individual choices. To ignore that responsibility is to make a mockery of the entire process of being a civilized individual and living in a communal environment. Community is not just about one person and his "rights" (which, as many of you know, I prefer to call "freedoms"), but also about the responsibility with which we -manage- those freedoms in order to be able to maintain a functional communal environment. As long as we are subjected to living in community, we have a responsibility, as rational adults, to consider not ONLY our personal desires, but the health, comfort, and freedom of the society in which we live and those neighbors with whom we must interact when we make choices about our personal behavior. In many places this is called "etiquette" or "good manners". It isn't about making laws to -regulate- behavior... it is a concomitant responsibility that comes along with having personal freedoms. The reason that we feel the need to create -laws- to regulate these kinds of things is, at least in part, because there are so -many- individuals who will not take responsibility for their share in maintaining the communal aspects of existence without being forced. Selfish, self-centered behavior is not -only- boorish and rude... it is also irresponsible and contributes to excessive legislation of not only one's -own- freedoms, but the freedoms of everyone else in the community. Dame Calla Sorry, not buying it. You have the ability to absent yourself from whatever you find distasteful. All rights, no matter how they may offend you, are to be protected. Otherwise you find said rights taken away. Case in point. There was some controversy years ago in NYC about a piece of art using elephant dung as the material in the portrayal of the Virgin Mary. Do I think that was classy? No. Did I go to view it? No. However, I would still defend the artist's right to express himself in whatever way he saw fit. It's a legally protected right. I chose to not patronize the museum that this display was at during the time it was present. Case in point. Breast feeding versus exposure of the female breast. Both are legal, with the stipulation that the exposure of said breast is not for commercial purposes. I find both situations equally tacky but I would just as soon defend an individual's right to do so. Why? Because it is their legally protected right to do so. If your chose to police yourself? Bravo. You'd be among the minority. I'm among that minority as well, but not because I find it morally superior to do so, simply it's my code of ethics. Nothing more or less. I don't seek to sanctify it in any way. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

sirsholly -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 7:56:15 AM)
quote: quote: Hell...go ahead and have a public suck-off in the toilet paper aisle of WallyWorld...if i was offended i would turn around and go the other way...otherwise i would simply stand there and laugh at you. But it is generally not just me. I have a very young child, and i have the right to take him into a public place without having to attempt to explain behavior which he is too young to understand. Ah, so we've gone from the broad "individual freedoms" to the specific of a public suck off in the toilet paper aisle of WallyWorld". Good - we're starting a list. I'd enjoin in laughing and move on too. However, if your child is "too young to understand" what explaining works? Is, "those people were showing they really like each other. I don't think people should do that here or in public, I don't like seeing it, lets go to another aisle" too broad? Granted a silly, "Didn't you hear that fart? His friend is just trying to re-inflate him"; may not convey the lack of appropriateness in public sentiment that you want to convey. there is a difference between individual freedom and inconsideration of others, Merc. None of us are idiots. We can all pretty much guess what behaviors are acceptable and what behaviors are not. A few weeks ago i had the little dude in a drug store. In line ahead of us was a group of teenagers. As kids will do, they were horsing around, name calling with 4 letter words, though not in a mean spirited way. When we got behind them, one of the group said "Midget alert!" and the name calling stopped. This is what i believe Calla's post alluded to...consideration of others. It would seem that those kids had more sense and consideration than alot of adults. They did not expose a child to words he would not understand and did not put me in a position of having to explain them to him. And what did it cost them? Nothing! If you want to call me a hypocrite because i practice consideration, and request it in return...be my guest.

Bella1965 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 8:00:21 AM)
G'morning all: quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I take it that everyone agreeing and applauding this supports the "right wing" position of many communities in the US concerning same sex partners holding hands and showing affection to each other. How "self centered" of them to show their love for their partner in public! Let's chain them up and drag them behind the pick-up for a few miles and scrape off that disgusting homosexuality from their sinning bodies. Yeah - it IS about personal freedoms. The personal freedoms of individuals to live as they choose, and the personal freedom of someone who doesn't like it to walk away. I'd agree that "self centered behavior" is "boorish and rude". What's more self centered than applying your personal standards of decorum and thinking anything outside of them inappropriate? BINGO. There's a reason why I'm part of Mnb's fan club. [:)] Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

sirsholly -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 8:00:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: I'm offended by the hypocrisy being expressed. But it is generally not just me. I have a very young child, and i have the right to take him into a public place without having to attempt to explain behavior which he is too young to understand. holly this is not directly at you but anyone who says the above bolded section. Could SOMEONE ANYONE tell me exactly what RIGHT that is? I know I have the Right to Speak my Mind, I have the Right to Religion, I have the right to bear arms. What Right is the above included in? I can't find one. Steel ok..point taken. Can i change "right" to "expectation"?

RCdc -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 8:02:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly But it is generally not just me. I have a very young child, and i have the right to take him into a public place without having to attempt to explain behavior which he is too young to understand. Holly, I know you and I will probably disagree with this, but I do not see why two people of whatever sexual orientation, kissing in a toilet tissue aisle of a supermarket is seen as offensive? And if my child had noticed, I don't see the issue of explaining what it is? But in all honesty, unless I stood there and stared or actually pointed at them wagging my finger - in other words - making it a spectacle, would a child really notice it in the sense that it is a bad thing? We condition children ourselves into what is good or not good. If you are ashamed of your body, of kissing, of anything... you cause your own offspring to pick up the vibes. Not referencing holly now - just rambling... I am going to go on to say that I honestly believe people totally do not understand children or young teens at all. People really have no idea just how bright and clever they are. People underestimate children so much that I am - as I get older - find it surprising. I don't believe many people have any real idea just what they(childrne and teens) are talking about, or what they are doing. Everyone is so intent on letting 'children be children' they don't even see the reality or scaring that children go though whilst at the same time, they are trying to grow up. At school, they are discussing sex, talking about wars, fighting and bullying each other, discussing religions, exploring textures and art. Every day, they are subjected to people shouting at each other. People holding hands. Weddings, deaths and funerals, war and other peoples fathers (and even their own) dying whilst serving their countries, other peoples children... watching people living on the streets, seeing a gay couple win on '4 weddings'! And yet some people still have this unnatural view that cotton wool will help. It doesn't. It just makes the item untouchable because of the fear that it might get broken, instead of gaining charachter by the scars and knocks that the experiences of life give you. the.dark.

sirsholly -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 8:11:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly But it is generally not just me. I have a very young child, and i have the right to take him into a public place without having to attempt to explain behavior which he is too young to understand. Holly, I know you and I will probably disagree with this, but I do not see why two people of whatever sexual orientation, kissing in a toilet tissue aisle of a supermarket is seen as offensive? And if my child had noticed, I don't see the issue of explaining what it is? But in all honesty, unless I stood there and stared or actually pointed at them wagging my finger - in other words - making it a spectacle, would a child really notice it in the sense that it is a bad thing? We condition children ourselves into what is good or not good. If you are ashamed of your body, of kissing, of anything... you cause your own offspring to pick up the vibes. Dark...never once did i say i have any issue with kissing, either by strait or gay couples. My kid knows what kissing is, a sign of affection. He also know what gay couples are, and knows it is as acceptable (to his parents) as heterosexually. If my use of the term "suck off" threw you...apologies. I meant oral sex.

sirsholly -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 8:15:36 AM)
quote: I am going to go on to say that I honestly believe people totally do not understand children or young teens at all. People really have no idea just how bright and clever they are. People underestimate children oh boy...did you hit a nerve! It is so hard to see that they are maturing at a faster rate than we are prepared for...

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 8:16:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I'm afraid that, philosophically, I have to agree with the teddy bear on this one... While individual freedoms are vital (and most everyone here has heard my diatribe on personal freedoms and responsibilities), I think that we, individually, have a responsibility to consider the sensibilities of those around us when we decide how we are going to PRESENT our individual choices. To ignore that responsibility is to make a mockery of the entire process of being a civilized individual and living in a communal environment. Community is not just about one person and hir "rights" (which, as many of you know, I prefer to call "freedoms"), but also about the responsibility with which we -manage- those freedoms in order to be able to maintain a functional communal environment. Despite the fact that I get into a zone when debating publicly, I think you and other who know me more personally are aware that I at least act in accordance with this expectation of courtesy and pleasantness one-on-one or in more personal interactions. Thing is, I feel that this "communal balance" is something that is inherently self-policing. If I am viewed in X social circle as being the type of person who flaunts themselves around at everyone, I'd think that I'll end up reaping the consequences of those actions when the pool of people willing to do anything with me (even talk) starts getting smaller and smaller. It's because a community issue like that will tend to correct itself according to what the group wishes that I feel it doesn't hurt to keep freedom as the default prioritization. Particularly since I feel compelled to rank public freedom as a higher value that public comfort (or public freedom from annoyance). quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW As long as we are subjected to living in community, we have a responsibility, as rational adults, to consider not ONLY our personal desires, but the health, comfort, and freedom of the society in which we live and those neighbors with whom we must interact when we make choices about our personal behavior. Here's where I tend to perhaps nitpick the word "responsibility" when it's used. I mean, objectively speaking, I guess that, yes, the responsibility lies in at the risk of alienating one's self (as we talked about above)...but I still think that is just a consequence one must understand when choosing to express their freedoms. I don't necessarily like the idea that it's an active responsibility that we must abide by (which would be a decree to someone of how to live their life, even if it's not directly harming anyone). quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW In many places this is called "etiquette" or "good manners". It isn't about making laws to -regulate- behavior... it is a concomitant responsibility that comes along with having personal freedoms. The reason that we feel the need to create -laws- to regulate these kinds of things is, at least in part, because there are so -many- individuals who will not take responsibility for their share in maintaining the communal aspects of existence without being forced. Agreed. Yet, I still don't think that to be a reason to force someone. Still, though, I think etiquette and tact take care of themselves in social circles all by themselves. quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW Selfish, self-centered behavior is not -only- boorish and rude... it is also irresponsible and contributes to excessive legislation of not only one's -own- freedoms, but the freedoms of everyone else in the community. [:)]

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 8:17:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I'd agree that "self centered behavior" is "boorish and rude". What's more self centered than applying your personal standards of decorum and thinking anything outside of them inappropriate? 40 points.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/14/2009 8:19:38 AM)
We are all presumably perverts of some sort on this board and WE can't agree on what is and isn't appropriate. I know there are things I would do at Folsom that others might find objectionable and others might find routine. Go into any fancy restaurant and you are going to find the same thing, sally over on table 12 is going to be appalled that table 13 is having a Gewurztraminer with lamb and everyone at table 13 is shocked that sally would wear that dress in public. If I was more literate or had time to spend on google, I would find a reference to the same thing in Roman times. It is a fine line between pushing social boundaries forward (alla Rosa Parks) and being an asshole, the line is always in the eyes of the neighbor, except in hindsight. Lets just remember, most of us aren't being Rosa Parks but sometimes we are...

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