RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it?

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SimplyMichael -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 11:17:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch Just for the record, I am NOT the parent who is oblivious to their offspring's obnoxious behavior, I am very conscious of the way they behave and if for some reason they are misbehaving, in public or not, I take appropriate action. That being said, let anyone, ANYONE, try and give me shit about them, or G-d Forbid, give them shit and they are going to go crying home to their own Mama! Woman, there are any number of reasons I adore you. One is that you are, by far, the best mother I know. Second, it is because you are as classy as they come. And like a lioness, I can't imagine what would happen if anyone came between you and your kids. As for those bitching and moaning in this thread, you seem like the exact sort that most restaraunts DREAD, whiny pains in the ass who don't tip, leave a mess, and think the world revolves around you. In my case, I would just slip a $50 to the manager to throw your ass out and BSB and I would relax and enjoy the joyous din of children being children.

leadership527 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 11:29:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I don't think we need to curtail freedoms or create unnecessary and restricting laws to contain people's behaviors to acceptable standards... I think that we need to find ways to gauge situations and compromise sufficiently to respect that there are a broad range of practices and relational dynamics in the world, and that we can use a little self-restraint in both our -presentation- of our personal dynamic, and in the way that we respond to the presentations of other peoples' dynamics. Good manners go a LONG, LONG way towards smoothing the issues of refining and re-defining appropriate behavior without inciting violence. Yes... Just, "Yes."

SimplyMichael -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 11:39:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I don't think we need to curtail freedoms or create unnecessary and restricting laws to contain people's behaviors to acceptable standards... I think that we need to find ways to gauge situations and compromise sufficiently to respect that there are a broad range of practices and relational dynamics in the world, and that we can use a little self-restraint in both our -presentation- of our personal dynamic, and in the way that we respond to the presentations of other peoples' dynamics. Good manners go a LONG, LONG way towards smoothing the issues of refining and re-defining appropriate behavior without inciting violence. Yes... Just, "Yes." Exactly, you go to McDonalds, don't expect violins and serentity, go to a high end Continental restaraunt, expect quiet. Most civilized people get the difference.

LaTigresse -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 11:52:21 AM)
Michael, that is exactly what I was going to say.

SnareMage85 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 12:16:34 PM)
Actually there's a couple at one of the vanilla clubs by me where the sub is always on a leash when I see her. Heck, she's even been paddled a couple of times with a wooden paddle by her Dom. Most people don't really pay all that close of attention, of course the one time some smartass did, the sub asked him if she could paddle him, and when the smartass let her... I think he went about 2-3 inches in the air... Personally, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 12:17:18 PM)
Curious, and hoping not really to start shit.... To date, the most public of all events we attend is the annual Folsom Street Fair in SF. On the last Sunday of September somewhere between 300,000 and 500,000 people, a large group of them in various stages of nude or some form of 'lifestyle' wear, gather together. There are many gratuitous displays of affection between same sex, hetero, every combination and variety of genders, some of those "affections" take the form of flogging, whipping, and bodily fluid exchange. Yes - right there in public on the Streets of SF. What are the posters feelings regarding children, teens, pre-teens, toddlers and in strollers, who are brought to the SF Folsom Street Fair? It's a public street, open, guarded by police who actually have a 'recruitment booth' there every year where I have beth pose naked with the recruiters. What is the "expectation" of the parents and the Fair goers? Who is, using our 2008 official photographer Michael's reference, "most civilized"? What to do about it? For those who've never been there; if you can think it - it is being done, publicly at the Folsom Street Fair. It is one of the few places in the world where you can hear this PA announcement; "ATTENTION! The stream coming down the gutter on the left side of the street is NOT water. Enjoy, or avoid, depending on your personal preference." We'll be back for our sixth trip on September 27th! Who's joining us this year?

LaTigresse -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 12:42:07 PM)
Would I do it, no. Do I think it is good parenting, no.

BossyShoeBitch -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 1:34:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth What are the posters feelings regarding children, teens, pre-teens, toddlers and in strollers, who are brought to the SF Folsom Street Fair? It's a public street, open, guarded by police who actually have a 'recruitment booth' there every year where I have beth pose naked with the recruiters. Hi Merc. Seriously? People bring kids of all assorted ages there? My feelings about seeing any under age children there would be the same as if I saw them in a dungeon, a sex club, an "R" or "X" rated movie, or a strip club. I'd be horrified, and I would immediately censor myself, my activities, and anyone whose activities or behavior I have control of. quote: What is the "expectation" of the parents and the Fair goers? Who is, using our 2008 official photographer Michael's reference, "most civilized"? What to do about it? In my opinion, the Fair goers shouldn't be expected to change anything about their manner of dress(or undress) or behavior. In this case, to me, the uncivilized would be the ahem parents who would expose their offspring to such things. What to do about it? Nothing I can do. What I would want to do however, I can't post here as it would probably violate tos.

sirsholly -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 1:39:26 PM)
quote: What are the posters feelings regarding children, teens, pre-teens, toddlers and in strollers, who are brought to the SF Folsom Street Fair? i just can't wrap my mind around that.....[>:]

RCdc -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 2:15:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Curious, and hoping not really to start shit.... To date, the most public of all events we attend is the annual Folsom Street Fair in SF. On the last Sunday of September somewhere between 300,000 and 500,000 people, a large group of them in various stages of nude or some form of 'lifestyle' wear, gather together. There are many gratuitous displays of affection between same sex, hetero, every combination and variety of genders, some of those "affections" take the form of flogging, whipping, and bodily fluid exchange. Yes - right there in public on the Streets of SF. What are the posters feelings regarding children, teens, pre-teens, toddlers and in strollers, who are brought to the SF Folsom Street Fair? It's a public street, open, guarded by police who actually have a 'recruitment booth' there every year where I have beth pose naked with the recruiters. What is the "expectation" of the parents and the Fair goers? Who is, using our 2008 official photographer Michael's reference, "most civilized"? What to do about it? For those who've never been there; if you can think it - it is being done, publicly at the Folsom Street Fair. It is one of the few places in the world where you can hear this PA announcement; "ATTENTION! The stream coming down the gutter on the left side of the street is NOT water. Enjoy, or avoid, depending on your personal preference." We'll be back for our sixth trip on September 27th! Who's joining us this year? Pffft... are we civilized? We had this discussion when we saw you and you know our view. Our children would be permitted to attend should they want to. And I would stress want. We wouldn't force them or take them along uninformed. Now before people jump down our throats, you should be aware that we are from the UK, and as far as open public events go in the UK, we dont have anything remotely close to Folsom and only after being told of the fullness of folsom where as you informed us, there is open sexual acts (exchanging fluids, masturbation etc) and that is the only thing where we draw the line - mainly because we wouldn't want to embarass them by being with them ! Seriously, what child in their right mind would be seen with their parents - it would be way uncool.[;)] Of course, UK is a bit different than USA. 16 is the age that people can legally have sex here. Plus none of the events we could ever go to have what we would call explicit sex - in other words - masturbation, oral, etcetc. You wouldn't see someone with something as minor as a strapon. At most, you might get some scantily clad person with no exposed genitals and possibly a bare chest! However, don't mistake our openess for stupidity. We would not advocate just anyone taking their children along though. We have an outstanding pair, who already have gay friends at school, who are aware of people with different identies and that people have escorts, live in authority dynamics, poly families and who are aware and adore our transvestite and transexual friends as well as our friends and their own who have mental health issues, who are of a religious or ethnic minority or shock upon shock - socalled stright up honest to god hetrosexual vanillas! We do wonder, and been thinking on this. What happens to people who live in the area? I mean, there must be people living at or above premises that inhabit the street? Or not? We guess we are just going by UK standards, where flats and apartments are above stores, pubs and shops.

DemonKia -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 3:24:33 PM)
FR, after continuing read thru Here's a summation of some of what I'm seeing going on in parts of this thread: 'I tolerate being offended by obnoxious, crying children, women breast-feeding, persons being 'excessively sexual' (sucking face, etc), people hacking up mucous & spitting it, etc, etc, therefore I have the right to be obnoxious back at them in my own way'. . . . . With some sophistry about the notion of 'taking offense' dressed up in the language of liberty . . . . . & there's still an unresolved issue around the logic-chain that goes: 'I'm not offended by blah-blah-blah, or things I equate to blah-blah-blah, therefore none other have the right to be offended by blah-blah-blah or its equivalents', with the amusement factor racked up by the expression of what does offend said poster earlier in the thread . .... I think every one of the posters asserting the lack of a basis for offense offered up stuff they found offensive . .. . . . Perhaps, those who get hung up on what's offensive or not really need to take care of their own feelings of offended-ness first . . . . There's something enormously disrespectful in not allowing for the right of the other to be offended. I may not agree with the grounds of that feeling of offense, but the other is allowed, in my book, to feel whatever they feel. My deciding they have a right, or lack a right, to their feelings isn't gonna change those feelings they're experiencing. lol . . . . Luckily for me I don't get hung up on 'being liberal' versus 'being conservative', so it doesn't bother me to realize that this is one of the places where I feel a conservative approach is called for, to minimize the potential for dissension, bad feelings, etc. Public behavior is expected to be relatively 'conservative', even excessively benign. This thread has really helped me understand why that is probably more workable. The examples of 'benign BDSM behaviors' offered up aren't the only ones that would be out there if / when it becomes more acceptable. There will inevitably be persons who want to engage in seriously offensive (to me) behaviors in public, & I'm reluctant to facilitate a 'right' to do that in the name of 'freedom of expression' . . ... I'm okay with limits, I don't feel the need to be 'unlimited', that just seems kinda unrealistic . . . . . Ah. & to address the Folsom Street Fair questions. Technically that's no more 'public' than a party at a 'public' dungeon. Those streets are closed off, admission is charged, & it is not just open to the wanderings of the general public. Only those who consent, by passing thru a gate & coughing up $10 (or whatever) get in . . . . As to children at Folsom, yeah, there's a few. A very few. In my experience Burning Man has proportionately more children than Folsom. I generally assume that those parents bringing their children to either venue are into dealing with the repercussions with their children, that they are way less into the whole 'sheltering the kiddies' thing than the general populace . . . . . My offspring are all legal adults now, but I wasn't really into sheltering them enormously & can see circumstances where I would have taken those that wanted to go to either Burning Man or Folsom. My oldest is a prude & would not have wanted to go to Folsom, but he loves BM; my middle is very open minded & would probably enjoy both; my youngest is an artist, & I took her to a Joel-Peter Witkin exhibit when she was 9. There was processing involved, discussion, but no lasting trauma . . . . . There's a context thing to Folsom, too. I generally figure that those who move to San Francisco are seeking out greater expression of personal freedoms as part of the milieu they're going to be living in. & those who are gonna take greater offense are gonna live other places, like the midwest or the deep south . . .. . (Darcy, sidenote: it's a primarily commercial / industrial area, with a limited amount of residential-above-businesses kinda stuff. The fair only goes on for a day, starting at, I think, 10 a.m. & ending at 6 p.m., so the residents are only impinged fairly briefly. & it's in a neighborhood where seeing someone walking down the street in chaps & a thong is not that terribly unusual. There are, I think, 3 different sex / BDSM toy stores in that immediate neighborhood, & the Citadel ('public' dungeon) is right around the corner from the section of Folsom that the Fair is held on . . . . . ) Fascinating discussion . . ..

Bella1965 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 3:52:30 PM)
G'afternoon all: quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly Wrong. It is NOT the decision of the management. It is the LAW. It is my right to stay in a public venue (such as a restaurant) while nursing. I doubt a restaurant manager will break the law to shut up a whiny patron. You can stand there and pitch as much of a fit as you care to...i will continue to nurse my child, eat dinner and laugh at you...and will not leave until we are done. [:)] In your state, perhaps. shrugs If you're nursing a three year old, you're the one with problems, not I. Name calling such as you've done only reflects poorly on your manners, not mine. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

Bella1965 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 3:59:10 PM)
G'afternoon all: quote: ORIGINAL: beargonewild I am curious...where is the line between maintaining your personal rights and avoiding that infringing on someone else's rights? It just seems that with all this heated debate about what is appropriate public behavior and what isn't is due to people's reaction of having their level of comfortability being rattled. Good examples is some people are against breast feeding in public, some are annoyed at PDA. I'd like to believe that the majority of the population will use and does use a certain amount of tact and discretion in these areas. Such a fine line is difficult to draw. What I find issue with is this: where is the difference between baring a breast, whether it be for feeding, indecent exposure, or kink? Why is one right and not another? I feel all rights, regardless of purpose need to be protected. It's when people get pissy, snarky and all self righteous that I step in. My rights are as sacred as anyone else's. So are your's. So is everyone else's. When people stop pretending their view makes their rights more worthwhile, no matter the circumstance, then we shall finally be equal. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella

DemonKia -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 4:11:52 PM)
Bella, did you really miss out on the 32-page long thread on Breast-Feeding in Off Topic? It was less than a month ago . . . . . Much of what you're arguing was hashed out there at quite some length, from both sides, FYI . . . . Not that I wanna stop a good thread highjack . . .. .

sirsholly -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 4:15:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bella1965 G'afternoon all: quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly Wrong. It is NOT the decision of the management. It is the LAW. It is my right to stay in a public venue (such as a restaurant) while nursing. I doubt a restaurant manager will break the law to shut up a whiny patron. You can stand there and pitch as much of a fit as you care to...i will continue to nurse my child, eat dinner and laugh at you...and will not leave until we are done. [:)] In your state, perhaps. shrugs If you're nursing a three year old, you're the one with problems, not I. Name calling such as you've done only reflects poorly on your manners, not mine. Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others... [:D] Bella first...i was giving a hypothetical. I do not nurse a three yr old. Second, if your profile is correct, nursing moms are protected in your state as well as mine. Actually...NY was the first to exclude nursing moms from indecency laws. Just thought i'd clue you in to that [:)]

Mercnbeth -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 4:49:23 PM)
quote: Hi Merc. Seriously? People bring kids of all assorted ages there? Yes. They are there but we've never stopped to ask their parents why. When the parents aren't in any sort of lifestyle garb, it seems more strange. But yup, last year we made it a point to notice and every age group was represented from 0-16. quote: We do wonder, and been thinking on this. What happens to people who live in the area? I mean, there must be people living at or above premises that inhabit the street? Or not? We guess we are just going by UK standards, where flats and apartments are above stores, pubs and shops. There are quite a few refurbished apartments and lofts. Contrary to other representations, it is enough of a neighborhood to support quite a few restaurants and bars. There are also some hotels and many other businesses within the 'roped off' section. Sunday is the culmination of what is called 'Leather Week'. The Fair goes until 6:00 and then the street parties start. Where we stay is inside the lines and just about every room is filled with revelers. As a side note - there was one or two families booked at the same place, but they left Sunday morning. Last year we had a group throwing down beads, in New Orleans style for flashers down below the balconies. We're bringing some beads for this year. Once the sun is down rooms doors open for parties and you venture forth to the clubs in the neighborhood. It was at one of those that beth tipped the host with her shirt. At about 2:00am the party moved back to the hotel. The neighborhood was still VERY active. To get in, the 'Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence' man the gates, but the admission is a donation and not required for entry. They have a suggested donation of $7/person which gets you the souvenir sticker, which always seems to slide off beth's body at some point during the day. Last year they raised over $330,000 for various charities. 2008 Folsom CharityI know of no dungeons which give the option of paying or not to get in. From the site: quote: Q: I've combed through the website and I can't find the ticket prices for the fairs? A: Addmission to the Up Your Alley Fair and the Folsom Street Fair is free with a suggested donation of $7.00. Attendees who choose to provide the suggested donation receive a sticker which entitles them to $1.00 off each beverage purchase It is a very liberating day. A FUN day filled with happy people. Why should seeing happiness, love, and even raw passionate sex be a function of age to understand? Smile to a baby - it smiles back. Are the images at Folsom disturbing to the child or the parent warping the image by their personal prejudice? I've never seen a fight at Folsom. Considering the venue, the attendees, the activities, and the large police presence, we've never seen an arrest. Call it 'conservative' or 'liberal' but for that day the policy decision seems to be that as long as it is consensual - it is LEGAL. I don't know where else you can have that experience. Smoke, eat,be naked, drink, have sex, beat or be beaten by your partner, out of doors, in public, while listening to live music. There are self identified liberals and conservatives who would find plenty to rally against in that list, age of participants and/or observers notwithstanding. What's that make me? I LOVE it and can't wait for it every year. I wish every day could be like that! I wish everyone could experience it at least once and just take in a big whiff of freedom!

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 4:55:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael You really must have an interesting reality. One where non-harmful, non-forcefully invasive (as Bita distinguished the difference in with her flashing example) freedom trumps someone else's desire to not be offended? Perhaps you've forgotten the theme of the boards we inhabit?

NihilusZero -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 4:59:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Okay, my world is turning upside down, a Gorean Master is advocating civility and someone else is calling him a pansy because of it.. Leonidas, any time you show up at Merc's the beer is on me, Nihilus, sorry dude but you have to buy your own. If you want to caricaturize my words when they are directed towards you to further either petty mockery or intentionaly strawmanning, that's fine. Doing so when my words are meant for another is..well...elementary school talk. I may as well have been in a discussion with Leonidas about diet sodas and having the topic of our mothers come up, at which point I may have asked if his mom drank any. And then, you'd have come in with: "Oh, sheeeeiit, Leo! He just called yo momma fat!" And, thanks...but I don't drink beer.

kiwisub12 -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 6:19:58 PM)
The arguments about breast feeding in public, both for and against, is probably the most compelling argument for enforcable public standards for "decency". Since there is always someone who wants to push the envelope, it gives them an envelope to push. and while people who are intelligent enough to argue one way or another probably have enough sense to not go completely overboard, there are those whose common sense is absent, and will do anything anywhere to anyone. Legislation tends to be geared towards the less sensible/intelligent individuals in society assuming that they are the ones who need to be told how to act. It gives a black and white standard for people to refer to when there is doubt regarding a course of action. and for the record, 23 years ago, i would breast feed my baby in public, and i always chose a corner chair and draped a blanket over my shoulder. I didn't care to make a point to the public. My right to breast feed my daughter was balanced by the general publics' right not to see my swollen breast leaking milk over my daughters mouth. and my ex. was upset that i would do this. He was one of those who thought i should breast feed in a toilet - not that he wanted to eat in a toilet - he just wanted our child to. I also went to a church, sat in the same pew and had a woman two seats infront who would plop her boob out, then get the kid on it. I didn't want to see that in church when i was trying to think spiritual thoughts. I found it very distracting. And if she had been the least bit discrete, it wouldn't have bothered me at all. Talk about a thought stopper - i'm afraid that god ran into a brick wall of breast tissue on that one.

beargonewild -> RE: Public BDSM - should we tolerate it? (7/13/2009 6:57:28 PM)
I still can't help but to think that many of what we (general) find isn't acceptable behavior in public isn't because a group of people trying to infringe on our rights but because we see some action which goes against our own sense of tact and decorum. Yes I will fight to protect my own rights yet I also have to take into serious consideration if my expressing my rights is going to grossly impact another's rights, so if that means I temporary set mine aside to comply with the general rights of society then I will. There are times where our own rights have to come second to what is the general acceptable right's of society.

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