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willbeurdaddy -> RE: Palin Attended Church Event With Samurai Sword Ceremony (7/20/2009 8:11:30 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
"the end does not justify the means"
You know, this little phrase deserves some attention.
In most cases in the real world, I think, we find that the ends do justify the means.
"The ends justify the means" basically means that any action you take (the "means") should be measured based on how they turn out (the "ends"). I think most people can agree with that. Ends justify means - some of them poorly, some of them well.
The alternative is the idea that only intent matters - no matter what the actual consequences are. Which is a rather scary idea.
What people mean when they say "the ends don't justify the means" is that the PARTICULAR consequences they want to talk about are not, in their opinion, worth the means taken to acquire them. Which, you know, okay. That's like, your opinion, man.
But ultimately, when we're talking about "ends" and "means", we're really talking about the distinction between intent and consequences.
So, let me ask you some serious questions:
1. If I intend to help you by letting the demons out of your skull, but in fact I wind up killing you by drilling a hole in your head, is that a good or bad thing?
2. If I intend to glorify myself, pettily crush those weaker than me, and fuel my own depraved ego, but in fact I wind up inventing the cure for cancer in the process, is that a good or bad thing?
I think we're much happier with person #2, even if person #1 seems like a nicer guy just based on intent. What's the difference? the ends - i.e., the consequences - of their actions.
And yeah, these are hokey and kinda contrived examples. Gimme a break; it's 3 in the morning. :) But seriously - people need to find a better way to frame these discussions than "the ends justify the means" - the cliche has stopped meaning what the original trope was supposed to, and it seriously muddles up any debate it gets trotted out in.
Swing and a miss, at least with the examples...notwithstanding the 3 am they totally miss the meaning of the phrase. Both of your examples deal with unintended consequences which has nothing to do with "ends justifying the means", which refers to achieving the intended consequences by any means possible.
An example in the true meaning of the phrase is saving babies by killing an abortion doctor. The cause is noble, but the actions to accomplish it deplorable.
Frankly I don't see any need to replace Means with intentions and ends with consequences, the original words do quite well themselves.
[/hijack]
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