RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come?

RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 5:52:50 AM)
You may not be an attorney but you see the legal facts pretty clearly. It takes quite a bit to pierce the fourth amendment, and probable cause must be combined with exigent circumstances for most warrantless searches to be upheld or even shielded from civil action. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl FR quote: Emergency situations or conditions which the law recognizes as excusing compliance with some procedural requirement or recognition of another's property or other interests. Most commonly used to refer to the variety of contexts in which a valid search and seizure may be conducted without a warrant. If the police action must be taken on a "now or never" basis to preserve evidence, it may be reasonable to permit a seizure without obtaining prior judicial approval. 413 U.S. 496, 505. Exigent circumstances may be found when substantial risk of harm to others or the police would exist if police were to delay a search until a warrant could be obtained. 627 F. 2d 906, 909. The mobility of a motor vehicle has been held in itself to create an exigent circumstance. In every instance where a search or arrest warrant has been dispensed with on grounds of exigency, probable causemust be present to justify the intrusion. quote: Exigent circumstances may make a warrantless search constitutional if probable cause exists. The existence of exigent circumstances is a mixed question of law and fact. United States v. Anderson, 154 F. 3d 1225 (10th Cir, 1998) cert. denied 119 S. Ct. 2048 (1999) (citations omitted). There is no absolute test for determining if exigent circumstances exist, but general factors have been identified. These include: clear evidence of probable cause; the seriousness of the offense and likelihood of destruction of evidence; limitations on the search to minimize the intrusion only to preventing destruction of evidence; and clear indications of exigency. http://www.answers.com/topic/exigent-circumstances im not a cop, or a lawyer... but.. sounds like them going in could be argued as lawful.

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 5:57:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 quote: The cop was screwed from the word go. Even before proving he was there legally, Gates threw down the race card. Before showing any ID, he was screaming about how this is how a black man in america is treated. Yes, Gates, it IS how a black man in america is treated... how ANY man in america is treated... any woman for that matter. As i said earlier.. testosterone ruled. Neither knew when to back down. The cop left, Gates followed outside still running his mouth. Even the man who took the Picture for the papers of Gates being handcuffed said Gates was out of control. Gates has a 1st Amendment right to call assholes, assholes. Such is not always prudent but he has that right. Would that not also be constituted as slander under the legal definition?

Irishknight -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:00:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl But, can yoiu imagine what Gates reaction would have been had someone actually broke into his house, the cops responded, took the man who entered at his word, that HE was Gates, then robbed Gates blind after the cops left? But that is not relevant to the "Truth according to Gates." Even though there would have been an open season on the police department for failure to do their job, it doesn't excuse the officer from doing his job. By being a white cop, he is already wrong to so many for even speaking to a black man. How dare he do the job we pay him to do. It is sad that so many otherwise rational human beings seem to have an irrational fear and hatred for those who are supposed to help us. It is even sadder how so many try to blame the police for their failings. "I was arrested because cops are pricks! My constitutional right to drink 50 beers and drive on the sidewalks was violated!" "Those cops are out to get me! They were following me just waiting for me to walk into that gas station with my gun. It's entrapment!" "I was arrested because of the color of my skin! It had nothing to do with me disturbing the peace and breaking several city ordinances and state laws."

ColonelKurtz -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:02:40 AM)
As a mixed race Brit looking way across the pond at this, it is quite depressing. This guy is a professor and a very well known and respected one at that. Not an actor and not a stereotypical rapper, which although it would still be wrong would be a little more understandable. Now granted, the police weren't to know who he was until they arrived but as soon as it became clear that it was a mis-understanding apologies should have been made and that would have been the end of the matter. Or rather should of! Now the President WAS foolish to say what he said and get himself involved on a personal level I'll admit that but he has raised an important issue never the less. If this can happen to a professor, I'd hate to think what would happen if Obama and the First Family if they locked themselves out of the White House!

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:12:41 AM)
Just because he is a professor doesnt mean he is well known. At Harvard, Gates teaches undergraduate and graduate courses as the Alphonse Fletcher University Professor and as Professor of English. Additionally, he serves as the Director of the W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Louis_Gates,_Jr. Now, would you not think that a professor of his caliber would know what emotions his words would produce, what the reaction may bring, and that the words he spoke are slanderous and inviting a lawsuit? I do hope the cop is speaking to a lawyer. For doing his job, he was called a racist. Crowley's past has certainly shown that is not the case. But, being labled a racist CAN affect Crowley's career.

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:21:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ColonelKurtz As a mixed race Brit looking way across the pond at this, it is quite depressing. This guy is a professor and a very well known and respected one at that. Not an actor and not a stereotypical rapper, which although it would still be wrong would be a little more understandable. Now granted, the police weren't to know who he was until they arrived but as soon as it became clear that it was a mis-understanding apologies should have been made and that would have been the end of the matter. Or rather should of! Now the President WAS foolish to say what he said and get himself involved on a personal level I'll admit that but he has raised an important issue never the less. If this can happen to a professor, I'd hate to think what would happen if Obama and the First Family if they locked themselves out of the White House! Being a professor has nothing to do with it. What had to do with it was Gates attitude and uncooperative manner, no matter why the police are there or not. Your actions, no matter what the reason the police are present for or not, have alot to do with the outcome of that given situation. Professor or street homeless person, act out in such a manner causing a disturbance as he were, and "out of control" as many say he was out in public outside the home for all officers from not 1 but 2 departments as well as several other citizens to see....that was the problem and that was what got him arrested. It had nothing to do with warrants or non warrants, it had nothing to do with probable cause or no probable cause. It simply had to do at that time, with his actions and uncooperative attitude when he stepped back outside and carried on as he did for the entire neighborhood and officers from 2 departments to see. The police had nothing to apologize for in doing their job, period. They followed up on a call of a possible burglary, Gates was the one that took it to the level of which he did, causing his own arrest What I find saddening is that such an individual showed his true colors as the racist he is and playing the race card as he did immediately. He did not get arrested and go to jail, post bond to get out, and then sit in news conferences claiming race issue. He did so right from the beginning. Tells alot of his charactor, or lack thereof as I stated earlier. Gates is not the only one to do so....you would be surprised as to how many immediately pull the race card as soon as a white officer shows up on a scene. It is like they use it as a frequent flyer card or something. As for equality which in this day and age should be anyway, but do something wrong and imediately pull the race card out and make it an issue.....truth be told, act like a criminal and do wrong then get arrested like one and pay the piper like anyone else does, no matter skin color!

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:24:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Just because he is a professor doesnt mean he is well known. At Harvard, Gates teaches undergraduate and graduate courses as the Alphonse Fletcher University Professor and as Professor of English. Additionally, he serves as the Director of the W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Louis_Gates,_Jr. Now, would you not think that a professor of his caliber would know what emotions his words would produce, what the reaction may bring, and that the words he spoke are slanderous and inviting a lawsuit? I do hope the cop is speaking to a lawyer. For doing his job, he was called a racist. Crowley's past has certainly shown that is not the case. But, being labled a racist CAN affect Crowley's career. Not to mention what all this is doing to Harvard as well. Ask me, they need to re-evaluate whether or not they need someone such as Gates on staff, and let him go for his actions and putting the University in such a national turmoil.

ColonelKurtz -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:29:21 AM)
Yes as I said, a well known professor. Or a prominent professor if we're going to nit pick on abreviations or his status. Now whether he's an educated scholar, a member of the government, a celebrity or even just an average Joe, he's still a human being with emotions. Not a robot as maybe some would have liked him to be. The man was arrested in his OWN home and had done nothing wrong. I'm sure any of us would have been angry under those circumstances. Apologies should have been made and understandings reached as soon as it was made clear that it was all a mistake. Do I think it was racially motivated? Hmm.. Maybe a little but not as much as people say or believe. I think it was more a case of the police generally puffing their chests out and and trying to save face after he was understandably verbally abusive.

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:35:30 AM)
His anger started before he even identified himself. It started when the Cop asked for identification, and didnt let up. Tell me, would YOU not expect a cop to ask you for identification if someone called and said your home was being broken into? As far as Gates being well known... he isnt.. unless you travel in those circles. quote: A white police sergeant who arrested renowned black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. was the campus police officer who tried to save the life of former Boston Celtics player Reggie Lewis. Sgt. James Crowley was a campus police officer at Brandeis University when Lewis, who was black, collapsed and died during an off-season workout in July 1993. Crowley administered CPR, trying to resuscitate the dying Lewis. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/23/national/main5182351.shtml Yeah, people.. we got a HUGE time racist here! Hardly. Its time to drop the racist angle from the Cop's end. Not all racists are white.

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:36:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ColonelKurtz Yes as I said, a well known professor. Or a prominent professor if we're going to nit pick on abreviations or his status. Now whether he's an educated scholar, a member of the government, a celebrity or even just an average Joe, he's still a human being with emotions. Not a robot as maybe some would have liked him to be. The man was arrested in his OWN home and had done nothing wrong. I'm sure any of us would have been angry under those circumstances. Apologies should have been made and understandings reached as soon as it was made clear that it was all a mistake. Do I think it was racially motivated? Hmm.. Maybe a little but not as much as people say or believe. I think it was more a case of the police generally puffing their chests out and and trying to save face after he was understandably verbally abusive. I agree, an apology should have been made, by Gates....he followed officers back outside and continued in his rantings, he was NOT arrested IN his home, rather outside in front of it, OUT IN THE PUBLIC causing a disturbance for the entire neighborhood and 2 departments of officers to see.....that is when he was arrested, NOT INSIDE as you state. Gates was asked several times to calm down, even to the point of see the handcuffs coming out and he continued on. Most others at that point would have seen where this was leading and stopped what they were doing. The only one that is making it a racial issue from the very beginning was and is Gates.

Diiamond -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:37:52 AM)
This issue has started a hailstorm of conversation in the black community as well as within CM. I am a professional with a BS in Chemistry and a MBA. Many of my black friends or collegues are also professionals with degrees. Guess what our threads look like? We immediately begin to recount the stories where WE have been in situations where we KNOW that racial profiling was taking place. Firsthand accounts of situations such as being a teenager hanging out with your friends in your own yard finding yourself suddenly surrounded by cops telling you to get on the ground with guns pointed at your heads. Have any of you ever experienced this? I did. I was 15 years old and outraged! I was thinking "How could this happen?". Has this ever happened to you? Try driving to the mall, which was located in a suburb that had very few blacks and being worried the entire time that you would be pulled over for DWB "Driving While Black". This fear was borne out of the experiences of my family and friends who had been pulled over without having violated any traffic laws. We all knew the score, but I was a teen that needed to go to the mall. So, I took my chances. These incidents absolutely color a person's view on police officers. It's hard for me to reconcile in my own mind that police officers are here to protect me because I have seen them NOT protecting me more than I have seen them actually being the good guys who are doing the protecting. When one of my good friends told me that he wanted to become a police officer, it really blew my mind. I was about 25 at the time. For me, that required a major paradigm shift because I really could not understand how anyone would want to become one of Them. Yes, for me it was an us versus them. As they had shown themselves to be a Them and not an us. This softened my view some on police officers and forced me to begin seeing things from their point of view. However, the issues are still there to some degree. Yes, I live in suburbia. Believe it or not, I fear for my son here much more than if we lived in a less affluent area. Just the other day, he was sitting outside on our front porch with his friends at about 10pm. His curfew is 9:30 and this was our way of giving him a few more minutes with his friends. However, I was so very uncomfortable with the situation that it left my stomach in knots until we brought him inside. Why was I uncomfortable? I was afraid that my son and his friends would be harrassed by the cops for being black kids outside on a porch at night. The first thing that they would say would be that they were responding to a call about a burgulary (I know that they probably Would be responding to a call about a burgulary but that doesn't make it any better). Nothing happeded that night. I was thanking God that my son made it in the house safely. But really though. Should this even have had to be an issue for me? I think not. I can understand that if a person has not ever had these types of experiences, doesn't KNOW anyone who has had these types of experiences, and has no chance of ever actually experiencing these things then that person will not understand. Each of us can only comment from our own perspective. So, I try really hard not to completely lose respect for those that I deem to be the MOST ignorant in their posts on this subject. But it is hard as hell.

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:49:13 AM)
Try being pulled over with your family, and having a cop ask you what you, a nice white girl, is doing with a bunch of dirty half-breeds. If you allow the past to color your view of the future, then racism is indeed in your mind, and will never be over come.

Diiamond -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:53:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: slutslave4u Black/white had nothing to do with it, the actions taken by the officers were warranted and just, gates did wrong and refuses still to own up to what he did and HE is the one that immediately brought up the race card Of course he felt if was a racial thing he is black. I am trying to understand things from his point of view, which obviously you cannot do (all the less power to you). Because, by the time a man has reached his age, how many times do you think it is likely that he was harrassed by the police or others for absolutely no reasons at all other than his skin colour? I say the likelyhood is immense. Given his background id say the likelihood is small. further, given his background, Id say that the likelihood that he intentionally escalated things so he could play the race card is immense. Are you kidding me? You can't be serious? I am almost at a loss for words on how to respond to someone who could truly believe that this man could have made it through life without having experienced being harassment by the police. Do you really believe that affluence affords us protection? I can understand that these may be your thoughts if you don't know any black people. But if you do, then please start talking to them and asking them about their experiences. I mean, every black person that plays the race card isn't racist. Racism does exist. Shit does happen.

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:55:13 AM)
and i cant believe you honestly think only blacks have had this experience! some of us can think for ourselves and grow to understand as we mature that not everything is racially motivated

Lorr47 -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 6:59:29 AM)
quote: Would that not also be constituted as slander under the legal definition? 1. Res ipsa locutor; 2. Truth is a defense.

ColonelKurtz -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:01:11 AM)
I don't remember saying that the officer in question was racist? I said I believed the incident "may" have been racially motivated a little. Now whether he was in his home or outside of it makes no difference. He was on the grounds of his OWN property and had been arrested for trying to get in to it by what looks like a small "force" of officers. The last thing this man is going to be concerned with is whether the neighbours are twitching their curtains and the embarassment of the poor officers involved. The man was rightly angry as he felt he'd been publically humiliated by people that are supposed to be there to serve and protect him. I'm not looking at this thing solely from Gate's point of view but from the officers also. I assure you that I'm not that narrow minded. But as I said, he was understandably upset and angry as I would have been and anyone else would have been in a similar situation. Now as far as I understand, he wasn't physical towards any of the officers. If he was, then by all means arrest him and let him cool down in a cell for a few hours. Yes he was verbally abusive but once he'd proven his identity, that was the officers cue to offer a small apology and some reassurance and then get out of dodge with some integrity intact rather than making the situation worse by arresting him.

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:01:36 AM)
What truth? What evidence is there that Crowley is a racist? The fact that He tried to prevent the death of a black athlete? yeah, sounds like racism to me.

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:02:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Try being pulled over with your family, and having a cop ask you what you, a nice white girl, is doing with a bunch of dirty half-breeds. If you allow the past to color your view of the future, then racism is indeed in your mind, and will never be over come. I'm not saying that in todays world it cant happen. In this day it is a sad thing if any department does have such as sworn police officers and they should rid themselves of any such from within their department. However keeping in mind also that there are how many thousands of officers out there that will be the first to come running when and if you should ever need them, no matter your skin color or views. "If you allow the past to color your view of the future, then racism is indeed in your mind, and will never be over come." very true.....it does seem that many wont, or cant....I have known many that will bring up situations that happened back in the 60's, we are in 2009......what happened back then, wrong as it were, is past history, but it is that....history. This case never should have come about, however it did because of Gates actions, no one else's but his own. Tell me would we be here as a nation going over all this if the officer had been a black male as well that arrested Gates, no I think not.

Diiamond -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:04:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl and i cant believe you honestly think only blacks have had this experience! some of us can think for ourselves and grow to understand as we mature that not everything is racially motivated I am smart enough to realize that not everything is racially motivated. In fact, I can discern quite well when that is not the case. My glass is always half-full and people are not out to get me. I belive in giving people the benefit of the doubt prior to deciding whether or not to take offense. That being said. It is still true that racism exists and that it is practiced by people of all races. Yes, even black people can be racist and I am often the first to point out the difference between a racist view and a valid one. However, it does not excuse the tendency to try to deny that it exists or that it is ever at the root of any issues that are flung into the public's view. That's one of the trends that I almost always see whenever we get the chance to have these great discussions. Most people will only be satisfied that something racist occurs if it is blatently done. Well, that's not always the case. It's not a fashionable thing anymore. So, if it is encountered, it is usually very subtle. One will indeed have to wrestle with the facts from the incident. In the end, you may never know if anything racist occured at all.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:06:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Diiamond Are you kidding me? You can't be serious? I am almost at a loss for words on how to respond to someone who could truly believe that this man could have made it through life without having experienced being harassment by the police. Do you really believe that affluence affords us protection? I can understand that these may be your thoughts if you don't know any black people. But if you do, then please start talking to them and asking them about their experiences. I mean, every black person that plays the race card isn't racist. Racism does exist. Shit does happen. Diiamond, meet willbeurdaddy. Get used to being at a loss for words. Welcome to the boards. The sooner you learn to not take wllbe seriously, the sooner this place will begin to make some sense to you.

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