RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come?

RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (Full Version)

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Lorr47 -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:07:37 AM)
quote: What truth? What evidence is there that Crowley is a racist? The fact that He tried to prevent the death of a black athlete? yeah, sounds like racism to me. Hmm. I equate police officers to assholes by "res ipsa" and state that "truth is a defense" and you come back with "racism." What police department do you belong to?

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:12:42 AM)
What we had was two men who knew nothing about each other. A Cop called out to do his duty. His duty including verifying who the man inside the home was after being told a robbery may be in progress. When the Cop asked for said ID The "Gentleman" started in on the Cop about " this is how a black man is treated in america" The "Gentleman" then showed a Harvard ID. Having looked at Harvard's site, not all ID's come with photos. The Cop wanted a more official ID, and asked for such, as is his right to do. Still more racial comments. The chain of events is showing more and more that Gates was pissed at being asked to prove who he was. Maybe an ego problem here? The "Gentleman" asked for the Cop's ID. While the Cop tried to give it, Gates kept yelling about racism. The Cop gave the information twice, then walked away. Gates followed him outside. His tirade continued. The Cop is now embarrassed, im quite sure. Gates is embarrassed, and indignant that a cop would question who he is. Tell me, where did the Cop do wrong? I would not have arrested Gates, because he is an arrogant idiot who obviously believes he is above the law due to his connections. His connections pulled the attention of the President away from Health Care reform. The President then went and said something he shouldnt have, since he didnt know all the facts. Once the President did, he appologized to the Cop. Yes, testosterone was way out of proportion. Had Gates simply handed over his ID, the Cop would have left. You cant honestly tell me a man with his credentials and backgrouond in african american studies, one who grew up with racism, one who no doubt has had to deal with it most of his life, doesnt know the proper procedures for an officer.

Diiamond -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:13:37 AM)
Thank you, ThatDamnedPanda. I was actually just lurking through the boards, interested in seeing what the currents were like on this topic with no intention of writing. But then I read that post and had to respond. If this is his mode of operation then he surely did his job well. It got me to writing! [:)] Now off for some good ole' retail therapy!

ColonelKurtz -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:20:37 AM)
Just because he saved the life of a black athlete (which is his job is it not?), doesn't mean that he's not actually possibly racist. I'm sure there's racists within the secret service but they all take an oath to do the job they're supposed to do they not? So I think that's a little shallow to say if I've got to be honest. And history is in the past?! lol Rodney King only received his history lesson was it 1990/1991? The guy in New Orleans not long after Katrina? What is history if we don't learn lessons from it? Tell that to any survivors from Auswitz Birkenau. That's a really foolish thing to say. The world right now wants to believe more than anything that America has changed and/or is changing but...

Lorr47 -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:21:09 AM)
It is always nice to talk to someone who was obviously there. My attitude? I lived with cops for 28 years. I would rather take care of my own problems than subject myself to the care of individuals who are in the main no better than criminals.

Diiamond -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:25:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl and i cant believe you honestly think only blacks have had this experience! some of us can think for ourselves and grow to understand as we mature that not everything is racially motivated You've actually made my point for me. I know that not only blacks have had this experience. I have friends of all colors. One of my friends, who happens to be white, has the same type of issue with police and her son. (Actually, two of them had this occuring but the second one's son is now grown and has moved out so the issue is moot.) She lives in a nice area, so it's not just a poverty issue. But the cops pull her son over almost each night when he returns home. She figured that he was being targeted so she tested the theory by having him drive her car for a while. Guess what? When he drove her car, no issues. As soon as he picked up his own again, the problems started again. So, it's not just black people that have seen this issue. That means that a problem is out there. This means that it's not cool to just dismiss the issue with a few ignorant quips.

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 7:42:36 AM)
No one said, least of all me, that racism isnt still a problem. Coming from the south, i thought southerns was some of the most racist people i would ever meet. I moved up north and found out how wrong my thinking was. I grew up in the military. I was not allowed to view people by color. I wasnt taught that way. My older brother used the "n" word once. He could not sit for a week. But if i allowed racism to color my world every time i got pulled over, would i be able to determine if it was racism or my own actions that were causing the problems? I am still waiting for someone to explain to me where race became an issue and how the actions of the Cop could be seen as rasict.

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 8:46:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl No one said, least of all me, that racism isnt still a problem. Coming from the south, i thought southerns was some of the most racist people i would ever meet. I moved up north and found out how wrong my thinking was. I grew up in the military. I was not allowed to view people by color. I wasnt taught that way. My older brother used the "n" word once. He could not sit for a week. But if i allowed racism to color my world every time i got pulled over, would i be able to determine if it was racism or my own actions that were causing the problems? I am still waiting for someone to explain to me where race became an issue and how the actions of the Cop could be seen as rasict. Race became an issue when Gates himself made it an issue by pulling out the race card as he did immediately when asked for his ID, and continued in his rantings from then on, not the officer

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 8:47:43 AM)
I agree

kdsub -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 9:23:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf The call can establish reasonable suspicion, but not probable cause. In the scenario you asked about, the officer sees firsthand, which then establishes probable cause. This is some extra reading of a Congressional Memo on the subject here . quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I hope you understand your comment does not make sense... the call WAS the reason for the visit...the call WAS for a burglary in progress...The officer DID see two men forcing the front door...But all our speculation is just that... At least until the police release the audiotapes...Yes there are tapes and when they come out we will know which is telling the truth. It will be fun to see a racist Harvard Professor’s career blow up in his face…or see the racist Cambridge Police exposed. Butch Of course this is where we disagree...to me the probable cause is obvious...and would hold up in any reasonable court of law... Now I am not talking about the arrest but the actions of the officer to determine if a crime was commented. I have already stated I thought the arrest, although allowed under the law, was not prudent and a result of anger at the officer’s treatment by Gates. Butch

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 9:56:17 AM)
The anger probably comes from being pulled over a lot more often than someone with lighter skin. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl His anger started before he even identified himself. It started when the Cop asked for identification, and didnt let up. Tell me, would YOU not expect a cop to ask you for identification if someone called and said your home was being broken into? As far as Gates being well known... he isnt.. unless you travel in those circles. quote: A white police sergeant who arrested renowned black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. was the campus police officer who tried to save the life of former Boston Celtics player Reggie Lewis. Sgt. James Crowley was a campus police officer at Brandeis University when Lewis, who was black, collapsed and died during an off-season workout in July 1993. Crowley administered CPR, trying to resuscitate the dying Lewis. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/23/national/main5182351.shtml Yeah, people.. we got a HUGE time racist here! Hardly. Its time to drop the racist angle from the Cop's end. Not all racists are white. I don't think the cop was racist, but I do believe that racial profiling in "traffic stops" happens so often it sets the stage for a situation like this.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 9:59:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Of course this is where we disagree...to me the probable cause is obvious...and would hold up in any reasonable court of law... Actually do some research and you may find this incorrect. Findlaw has some good resources. This is also why when cops are called to a prowler/possible burglary, they do not enter unless they see forced entry. quote: Now I am not talking about the arrest but the actions of the officer to determine if a crime was commented. I have already stated I thought the arrest, although allowed under the law, was not prudent and a result of anger at the officer’s treatment by Gates. Butch Actually the investigation starts with reasonable suspicion, which the officer had. There is a distinct difference between resasonable suspicion and probable cause. There are several good sites that explain the differences, and how they effect police procedure.

Gwynvyd -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 10:00:16 AM)
I am still amazed at how blind most people, esp. white Americans are to prejudice. No.. we do not have absolute deprivation any more. Blacks can hold jobs, go to school ect. However it is still prevalent in our society to hold back what we see as a subordinate race or group. The call brought the officers to the residence. That much is true. As well it should have. Even if he were white. Everything changed when the officer arrived. Yes the professor shouldnt have refused to show his ID. ~ years of racial profilling prob. effected how he felt about showing his id in his own home. The officer had the right to ask him out onto the porch. The resident had the right to refuse. He even had the right to refuse showing his ID. Once he showed his ID with the current address the officer should have turned around and left. No matter what was said. You can not arrest someone for being a jerk. They have to be doing something unlawful, or dangerous. He was doing neither. The officer also by state law had to give him his name and badge number. That is a law. I can understand how Mr. Gates would be pissed off, and wanting this information. Even though it is not a law in Florida when asked I had to give my full name and badge number when asked due to department rules. His being arrested was an asine mistake that had to legal basis. I would say as an ex LEO that it was because the officer was mad at being yelled at and possibly because Mr. Gates is black. People outside of law enforcement can say what they like... but most will have no clue. We just have to be honest with ourselves here folks. Gwyn

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 10:08:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd I am still amazed at how blind most people, esp. white Americans are to prejudice. No.. we do not have absolute deprivation any more. Blacks can hold jobs, go to school ect. However it is still prevalent in our society to hold back what we see as a subordinate race or group. The call brought the officers to the residence. That much is true. As well it should have. Even if he were white. Everything changed when the officer arrived. Yes the professor shouldnt have refused to show his ID. ~ years of racial profilling prob. effected how he felt about showing his id in his own home. The officer had the right to ask him out onto the porch. The resident had the right to refuse. He even had the right to refuse showing his ID. Once he showed his ID with the current address the officer should have turned around and left. No matter what was said. You can not arrest someone for being a jerk. They have to be doing something unlawful, or dangerous. He was doing neither. The officer also by state law had to give him his name and badge number. That is a law. I can understand how Mr. Gates would be pissed off, and wanting this information. Even though it is not a law in Florida when asked I had to give my full name and badge number when asked due to department rules. His being arrested was an asine mistake that had to legal basis. I would say as an ex LEO that it was because the officer was mad at being yelled at and possibly because Mr. Gates is black. People outside of law enforcement can say what they like... but most will have no clue. We just have to be honest with ourselves here folks. Gwyn you would have to go look at the laws for that community, as for disturbing the peace as it were, that may cary from state to state or city ordinances.....if evidently did do that or else he never would have been charged in the first place....so being a jerk as you say, yes very well could have brought about a charge of disturbance out in public as he was. He was doing something unlawful, disturbing the peace with his rantings anc carrying on as he were in full view of all in the neighborhood with several officers present. you would have to see what the laws/ordinances in that area are or state beofre judging like that. When investigating a possible burglary in progress, finding someone there that yes the officer did not know, he did have the right to ask for ID, and yes at that time Gates should have produced it, that would have ended this entire situation, Gates to it to the level of which it came to be. Not the officer

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 10:11:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Of course this is where we disagree...to me the probable cause is obvious...and would hold up in any reasonable court of law... Actually do some research and you may find this incorrect. Findlaw has some good resources. This is also why when cops are called to a prowler/possible burglary, they do not enter unless they see forced entry. quote: Now I am not talking about the arrest but the actions of the officer to determine if a crime was commented. I have already stated I thought the arrest, although allowed under the law, was not prudent and a result of anger at the officer’s treatment by Gates. Butch Actually the investigation starts with reasonable suspicion, which the officer had. There is a distinct difference between resasonable suspicion and probable cause. There are several good sites that explain the differences, and how they effect police procedure. not true here either, If responding to a possible burglary, forced entry or not, even a simple unlocked door, yes, as an officer they will and have the right to search the home to ensure no burglars are inside, which even you would want them to do if it were your home.............

ColonelKurtz -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 10:13:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gwynvyd I am still amazed at how blind most people, esp. white Americans are to prejudice. No.. we do not have absolute deprivation any more. Blacks can hold jobs, go to school ect. However it is still prevalent in our society to hold back what we see as a subordinate race or group. The call brought the officers to the residence. That much is true. As well it should have. Even if he were white. Everything changed when the officer arrived. Yes the professor shouldnt have refused to show his ID. ~ years of racial profilling prob. effected how he felt about showing his id in his own home. The officer had the right to ask him out onto the porch. The resident had the right to refuse. He even had the right to refuse showing his ID. Once he showed his ID with the current address the officer should have turned around and left. No matter what was said. You can not arrest someone for being a jerk. They have to be doing something unlawful, or dangerous. He was doing neither. The officer also by state law had to give him his name and badge number. That is a law. I can understand how Mr. Gates would be pissed off, and wanting this information. Even though it is not a law in Florida when asked I had to give my full name and badge number when asked due to department rules. His being arrested was an asine mistake that had to legal basis. I would say as an ex LEO that it was because the officer was mad at being yelled at and possibly because Mr. Gates is black. People outside of law enforcement can say what they like... but most will have no clue. We just have to be honest with ourselves here folks. Gwyn Well said Gwyn. But I also forgot about the name and badge number issue aswell so thanks for reminding us about that.

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 10:15:30 AM)
quote: "MUNICIPAL CODE CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSSETTS Chapter 9.08.010 Disorderly conduct--Profanity and insulting language. No person shall behave himself in a rude or disorderly manner, or use any indecent, profane or insulting language in any street or public place. No person shall make or cause to be made, any unnecessary noise or noises in any public street, private way or park, so as to cause any inconvenience or discomfort for the inhabitants of the City." This is why he was arrested... not in his home... but out of his home, in full view of the public, causing a scene. He was warned to stop. He did not. He was then arrested. Are we proposing that the police not enforce the laws of the community just because the person can be understandably upset? and especially if he (Gates) had the choice of handling this in a different manner?

ColonelKurtz -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 10:25:56 AM)
sigh I'm getting confused now because all of the apparent eye witnesses on this thread appear to be changing the alledged facts and circumstances to me. Firstly, was he or was he not on the grounds of his own property? Either within the house itself or on the porch? And secondly, were the profanities aggrivated as such?

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 10:36:18 AM)
Here. A site i ran across. He breaks down the reports from Crowley and Gates, shows the inconsistencies. http://garveys-ghost.blogspot.com/2009/07/911-is-joke-in-your-town.html http://garveys-ghost.blogspot.com/2009/07/gates-story-is-fishy.html http://garveys-ghost.blogspot.com/2009/07/gates-takes-knock-at.html Having read Garvey's Ghost for years, i find its not a site playing up to whites, or blacks, but calls racial issues as they are.

ColonelKurtz -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 11:10:37 AM)
Thanks tazzy but they didn't really help answer the questions I asked unfortunately. Would the officer have been better to apologise for the misunderstanding, try and calm Gates down understanding why he was so upset and or then leave and allow Gates to take the incident further to the relevent authorities? Or was he right to "get angry himself", arrest him and to turn a misunderstanding into a national political aurgument which has gone right to the top? As I initially said, Obama was wrong to go public with his opinions on the matter at that time but I saw a small clip of the officer in question this morning saying to reporters "he insulted my mother". Was your mother there to hear the profanity and get offended? Surely a thick-skined tough cop isn't going to suffer any long term psychological damage by the term "mofo"? If that indeed was the term used. Not only that, he then went on to say, "The President should mind his own buisness!" or words to that effect. Is that how a professional police officer and upholder of the law, "publically" talks to/about his elected head of state over there?! At the end of the day, two maybe even three wrongs don't make a right. I think we can all agree that. But he appears to be playing the little victim status himself now I think. He's supposed to be a trained and professional police officer. I think it was in poor judgment that he arrested Gates. And he didn't do himself or his case any favours in speaking that way about the President publically even though the President was wrong himself.

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