RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come?

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OrionTheWolf -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 5:29:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf 1) In Mass, Police Officers are required to show identification when asked. For Patrolmen, their "identification is right there on their chest. Kinda hard to miss. Check the Mass law, as well as other states have similar laws that require a seperate ID that the police show. This is because of impersonation of a Police Officer being used for robberies. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf 3) Only if you are detained are you required to give your name 5) It requires probable cause or a warrant to enter a residence If the officer is investigating a break-in and you are at the scene, you'd better believe you're required to give your name when asked. And the probable cause is more than satisfied when the cop is answering a burglary call. It takes more than a call to establish probable cause, but I am sure you have researched that already. They may check the outside of the premises for obvious forced entry, look in the windows for things, but they do not enter from just a call, unless there are more to the situation. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf 6) In most states, you do not have to prove you are the owner or legal resident of a dwelling to exert your rights against illegal search. But if you're a suspected burglar, it's not an illegal search when you're the one found at the scene. In the case where someone calls about you going into your own home, it is an illegal search if they enter the property without probable cause (again just the call is not probable cause). They need a warrant to violate the fourth amendment, or probable cause.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 5:32:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Probable cause would have to be determined since the officer did not see the burglary in progress. If there was something obvious, like a broken window or door, combined with the call, then that would have likely established probable cause. Just a call usually does not establish probable cause, but that would have been a call the field supervisor would have made. There was probable cause as soon as they got a burglary in progress call. There is simply no issue about a warrant in this case. The officer's Probable Cause Statement will be released to the public in this case Im sure. Here is a description of a case where a 911 call was the sole reason for a traffic stop, and the court ruled that the call created probable cause. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4180/is_20080930/ai_n28112626/

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 5:36:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf quote: ORIGINAL: Loki45 quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf 1) In Mass, Police Officers are required to show identification when asked. For Patrolmen, their "identification is right there on their chest. Kinda hard to miss. Check the Mass law, as well as other states have similar laws that require a seperate ID that the police show. This is because of impersonation of a Police Officer being used for robberies. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf 3) Only if you are detained are you required to give your name 5) It requires probable cause or a warrant to enter a residence If the officer is investigating a break-in and you are at the scene, you'd better believe you're required to give your name when asked. And the probable cause is more than satisfied when the cop is answering a burglary call. It takes more than a call to establish probable cause, but I am sure you have researched that already. They may check the outside of the premises for obvious forced entry, look in the windows for things, but they do not enter from just a call, unless there are more to the situation. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf 6) In most states, you do not have to prove you are the owner or legal resident of a dwelling to exert your rights against illegal search. But if you're a suspected burglar, it's not an illegal search when you're the one found at the scene. In the case where someone calls about you going into your own home, it is an illegal search if they enter the property without probable cause (again just the call is not probable cause). They need a warrant to violate the fourth amendment, or probable cause. Probable cause would definately be present when answering a call to a possible burglary in progress when arriving you confront someone, anyone, INSIDE THE RESIDENCE until all is determined in the course of the investigation to determine exactly who that person happens to be

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 5:38:36 PM)
Sometimes the procedures for the police are not in alignment with constitutional rights. If you were a cop for 20 years, you would know that. You would also know that just a call is not probable cause to enter the premises. How many calls about a possible burglary to a store, where the store has no forced entry, has no emergency numbers, and no one is seen, do the cops do a forced entry on? Also, how does someone prove they are the legal residence when access to lease and deeds are not usually handy? Sorry but these kinds of cases have come up before, right here in Georgia too. How about the Granny that took on five cops that were serving a no-knock warrant? Just close to where I live there was a situation where someone was followed home by an officer, the officer did not turn on their lights, or say anything until the person had exited their vehicle and entered the house. The cop then knocked on the door and asked for the driver. The driver would not exit, so the cop went back to his car, called it in, waited on the warrant and entry team, then took the guy out the legal way. It really is not that difficult, and too many times cops believe they have rights that they do not. I usually cooperate if I am approached correctly, but if not, they better have everything on the legal side. quote: ORIGINAL: slutslave4u I just read the report myself the first time, and still agree 100% with what was done...and I would have done the same as a police officer.....it's called their job!

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 5:44:22 PM)
Just look it up and read it http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/02.html#3

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 6:05:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Sometimes the procedures for the police are not in alignment with constitutional rights. If you were a cop for 20 years, you would know that. You would also know that just a call is not probable cause to enter the premises. How many calls about a possible burglary to a store, where the store has no forced entry, has no emergency numbers, and no one is seen, do the cops do a forced entry on? Also, how does someone prove they are the legal residence when access to lease and deeds are not usually handy? Sorry but these kinds of cases have come up before, right here in Georgia too. How about the Granny that took on five cops that were serving a no-knock warrant? Just close to where I live there was a situation where someone was followed home by an officer, the officer did not turn on their lights, or say anything until the person had exited their vehicle and entered the house. The cop then knocked on the door and asked for the driver. The driver would not exit, so the cop went back to his car, called it in, waited on the warrant and entry team, then took the guy out the legal way. It really is not that difficult, and too many times cops believe they have rights that they do not. I usually cooperate if I am approached correctly, but if not, they better have everything on the legal side. quote: ORIGINAL: slutslave4u I just read the report myself the first time, and still agree 100% with what was done...and I would have done the same as a police officer.....it's called their job! what I do find amazing is how a lawyer will see the law one way and another will see the very same thing, a completely different way....it happens...you put a room full of lawyers and prosecuters together with 1 law, and you will have a room full of different versions of what they all "think" that law means and should be! but again no, in THIS case I do not believe and no one can convince me otherwise that the officers did anything wrong here. I did not say "just a call was probable cause" what I said was the call, arriving on scene to a reported possible burglary in progress, and finding the door in the condition it was in and someone, anyone inside......you want to wait at that time for a warrant to go inside? how ridiculous does that even sound? Comparing this case to others should not even be done here, this case is what it is, those cases were what they were, not the same thing. and again the arrest came about not while inside the residence, rather outside after Gates followed the officer back out to the front of the home, in the presence of other officers and citizens that began to gather, all witnessing his remarks and actions, thus justifying the arrest, even after several attempts to warn him beforehand, he was asked to calm down, he refused, he was outside in the public where several witnessed his behavior.......forget why they were called there to begin with, as has been said they did not have right to be there, I contend that they in fact had every right to be there, both inside as well as outside under the circumstances reported...however, the arrest came from his actions while in the public eyes outside for all to see, not inside

willbeurdaddy -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 6:08:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Just look it up and read it http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/02.html#3 tldr; but skimming it everything appears to be referring to probable cause in obtaining a warrant, not probable cause for a potential crime in progress/911 calls. If there is something about crimes in progress, cut and paste it into a post.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 6:21:24 PM)
quote: The charge of disorderly conduct was not brought about by his conduct inside his home....rather when he followed the officer back outside and continued in his rantings not only in the presence of other officers but the other citizens, the public as you stated that had began to gather out in front of the residence, IN PUBLIC as stated in the arrest report ! Yeah, all those people were on the sidewalk and only two witnesses are listed (Lucia Whalen and Officer Figueroa). Only Officer Figueroa gave a written statement. The statement was exactly the same thing that Officer Crowley said. Hmmm, don't think they did that report together and got their stories straight? Also Officer Crowley says, "I told Gates that I was leaving his residence and that if he had any other questions regarding the matter, I would speak with him outside the residence." Gee, I wonder why he wanted him to come outside? You don't think he was trying to bait him so he could get even do you? Naw, cops never do shit like that. The cops excuse for wanting to continue outside was, "the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units." Mmmhmmm, yeah right. As I have said before, both of them were being pricks. The officer lured him outside to arrest him. He should have just left. I have been hearing cops on news channels all day saying the same thing. Gates didn't break the law in my opinion. He was an asshole, but he didn't break the law. The police officer should have has a thicker skin.

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 6:32:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: The charge of disorderly conduct was not brought about by his conduct inside his home....rather when he followed the officer back outside and continued in his rantings not only in the presence of other officers but the other citizens, the public as you stated that had began to gather out in front of the residence, IN PUBLIC as stated in the arrest report ! Yeah, all those people were on the sidewalk and only two witnesses are listed (Lucia Whalen and Officer Figueroa). Only Officer Figueroa gave a written statement. The statement was exactly the same thing that Officer Crowley said. Hmmm, don't think they did that report together and got their stories straight? Also Officer Crowley says, "I told Gates that I was leaving his residence and that if he had any other questions regarding the matter, I would speak with him outside the residence." Gee, I wonder why he wanted him to come outside? You don't think he was trying to bait him so he could get even do you? Naw, cops never do shit like that. The cops excuse for wanting to continue outside was, "the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units." Mmmhmmm, yeah right. As I have said before, both of them were being pricks. The officer lured him outside to arrest him. He should have just left. I have been hearing cops on news channels all day saying the same thing. Gates didn't break the law in my opinion. He was an asshole, but he didn't break the law. The police officer should have has a thicker skin. there were several officers on the scene, from the University Police to the arresting officers department, and yes some of which were in fact black as well as seen in the photo shown. Do I believe the officers acted as they should, and in reporting how things took place in their report? In this particular case yes, as they would have all known this was going to be a particularly high profile incident brought about by Gates actions. Therefore, you have 2 different departments on scene, both able to report what took place as seen by all present. Have you ever, ever been inside a home with the accustics as they are attempting to radio to your department what the situation is or even if you and all in the home are okay? Try it, I have, and many times with someone yelling and screaming inside it is near impossible to either have the dispatch officer be able to understand what you are saying as well as understanding what they are asking. It is not uncommon at all once others are on scene for someone to go outside to be able to communicate with their dispatch. I have had many in the past step outside to talk as well....whatever his reasons for doing so happen to be.....what happened out there once Gates went out there put him in the public. He did not have to act as he did, he chose to do so, he chose to show his true colors, he chose to show how racist he is by his actions. When he continued as he did out there even after being asked several times to calm down he refused to do so and continued with his tirade. His actions and his actions alone are what got him arrested, period!

slaveboyforyou -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 6:43:13 PM)
quote: there were several officers on the scene, from the University Police to the arresting officers department They didn't give written statments on the report. They spoke up after the fact. Cops stick together. quote: Have you ever, ever been inside a home with the accustics as they are attempting to radio to your department what the situation is or even if you and all in the home are okay? I've been in a house when the cops came, and they didn't step outside to use their radios. I've been in my own home when the cops came, and they tried to get me to come outside, and I told them no. I talked to them through the screen. Once they get you outside (and they do try), they can make up all sorts of bullshit. Disorderly conduct is a vague charge. I was charged with it once for calling an old high school rival on our local hick town PD a cocksucker under my breath. Public intoxication is another favorite bullshit charge they like to use. A couple of beers consumed on your own front porch will get you 6 hours in the drunk tank here (happened the same night as the disorderly conduct charge, hence me mumbling cocksucker to the prick in question). Now I won't come out of my house.

slutslave4u -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 6:54:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: there were several officers on the scene, from the University Police to the arresting officers department They didn't give written statments on the report. They spoke up after the fact. Cops stick together. quote: Have you ever, ever been inside a home with the accustics as they are attempting to radio to your department what the situation is or even if you and all in the home are okay? I've been in a house when the cops came, and they didn't step outside to use their radios. I've been in my own home when the cops came, and they tried to get me to come outside, and I told them no. I talked to them through the screen. Once they get you outside (and they do try), they can make up all sorts of bullshit. Disorderly conduct is a vague charge. I was charged with it once for calling an old high school rival on our local hick town PD a cocksucker under my breath. Public intoxication is another favorite bullshit charge they like to use. A couple of beers consumed on your own front porch will get you 6 hours in the drunk tank here (happened the same night as the disorderly conduct charge, hence me mumbling cocksucker to the prick in question). Now I won't come out of my house. A good cop will do what he is trained to do, the right thing... Myself i have put cops in prison for things they have done. As an officer I did not need to resort to lying to "cover" anything, tell the truth and do a good job, as did this officer here! everyone continues to compare this case to that case, each case no matter what it may be, is its own case with its own merrit. As for stepping outside to use their radios, could depend on the accustics of your home, each will not be the same...same as I am trying to say with all these other cases everyone continues to try to compare here with this one....this post is/was about Gates and the situation as it were/is

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 7:11:53 PM)
FR quote: Emergency situations or conditions which the law recognizes as excusing compliance with some procedural requirement or recognition of another's property or other interests. Most commonly used to refer to the variety of contexts in which a valid search and seizure may be conducted without a warrant. If the police action must be taken on a "now or never" basis to preserve evidence, it may be reasonable to permit a seizure without obtaining prior judicial approval. 413 U.S. 496, 505. Exigent circumstances may be found when substantial risk of harm to others or the police would exist if police were to delay a search until a warrant could be obtained. 627 F. 2d 906, 909. The mobility of a motor vehicle has been held in itself to create an exigent circumstance. In every instance where a search or arrest warrant has been dispensed with on grounds of exigency, probable causemust be present to justify the intrusion. quote: Exigent circumstances may make a warrantless search constitutional if probable cause exists. The existence of exigent circumstances is a mixed question of law and fact. United States v. Anderson, 154 F. 3d 1225 (10th Cir, 1998) cert. denied 119 S. Ct. 2048 (1999) (citations omitted). There is no absolute test for determining if exigent circumstances exist, but general factors have been identified. These include: clear evidence of probable cause; the seriousness of the offense and likelihood of destruction of evidence; limitations on the search to minimize the intrusion only to preventing destruction of evidence; and clear indications of exigency. http://www.answers.com/topic/exigent-circumstances im not a cop, or a lawyer... but.. sounds like them going in could be argued as lawful.

LotusSong -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 7:24:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong (The above was written tongue in cheek.. but I hope you get the point.) (psssttt.. did you miss this?) quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Forgive me for saying so, but not only do you have a strangely perverse victim mentality, you are also delusional. Why, thank you![:)] On a site like this, that's quite a compliment [:D]

kdsub -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 9:25:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf quote: Here is another example... The police receive a call that two men are breaking into their neighbor’s house while they are on vacation. The officers arrive and find two men just forcing the front door open. The officers run to the door and demand identification. One of the men says this is my house you need a warrant and slams the door closed. What do you think the law would be in this case? Butch I would say there was probable cause since the officer actual saw the forced entry, which again is a different circumstance than just a phone call. This is why many states have amended Domestic Violence laws, so that officers have the legal right to enter the premises to determine that everyone is okay. Just a phone call is usually not enough, but there are a few exceptions (screams of help, gunfire, just to name a couple). I hope you understand your comment does not make sense... the call WAS the reason for the visit...the call WAS for a burglary in progress...The officer DID see two men forcing the front door...But all our speculation is just that... At least until the police release the audiotapes...Yes there are tapes and when they come out we will know which is telling the truth. It will be fun to see a racist Harvard Professor’s career blow up in his face…or see the racist Cambridge Police exposed. Butch

blacksword404 -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 9:36:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou When the police start asking you about criminal matters, you simply say, "Officer I don't want to say anything without the advice of an attorney." By law, it's supposed to stop right then and there. Then you ask, "Am I under arrest, or may I go?" If you're under arrest, cooperate with the booking procedure and make your phone call. But keep your mouth shut. Don't talk to the other inmates about it, don't joke around with the jailers, don't talk.....period. Good advise. Only guilty or foolish people talk to the police without a lawyer.

Arpig -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/24/2009 9:46:39 PM)
quote: Good advise. Only guilty or foolish people talk to the police without a lawyer. I wholeheartedly agree!! The last time I was sent to the lock-up, I cooperated with them all the way, the only thing I asked for was a last smoke before getting in the car (like any good condemned man would). While I was enjoying my last smoke the cop who was taking me in told me not to say anything to anybody, to just shutup and wait for my lawyer to deal with things. Its possible that he said that just to keep me from causing him extra paperwork, but I suspect it was heartfelt advice since I was being picked up on a technicality and had cooperated, they appreciate it when you don't cause trouble.

Lorr47 -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 3:50:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sir1969 The sad and frightening thing is that as this story is reported over and over, the facts that led to the arrest are being left out/ discarded. When I first read about this on the CNN site, Gates even stated that when arriving home his front door had been jammed so him and his driver(?) had to go around back. They then had to force the front door open from the inside. I haven't seen anything more about this since my first reading of the story. As they struggled to get it open initially in front, I'm sure it probably looked like a burglary in progress. Personally, I would have been glad that neighbors were watching out for me and the cops were checking to see if I really belonged in the house. I'm a bit disturbed by our president's comments on the matter though he does admit to being biased as Gates is a friend of his. But saying the police acted stupidly? Hmmm... Quote from above: "They (Gates) then had to force the front door open from the inside." Maybe the police action is in fact an admission by the police. In Michigan the charge means a breach of the peace in a public place. Gates was breaking out of his own home. They had nothing to charge him with and had to get him out of his house into a public place to even consider a charge. Even then is Gates' front porch a public place? We usually categorized these situations as the "defendant breached a police officer's peace of mind in a private place and then was stupid enough to come out." A very sarcastic judge up here said he apparently misunderstood the facts. The judge thought that Gates was arrested because he "drove while black." It is a bullshit charge by an officer who was pissed off by whatever Gates did. Gates' mistake was that he came out. Many here seem to disagree with slaveboi's' statements, but he is right.

tazzygirl -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 4:46:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 quote: ORIGINAL: sir1969 The sad and frightening thing is that as this story is reported over and over, the facts that led to the arrest are being left out/ discarded. When I first read about this on the CNN site, Gates even stated that when arriving home his front door had been jammed so him and his driver(?) had to go around back. They then had to force the front door open from the inside. I haven't seen anything more about this since my first reading of the story. As they struggled to get it open initially in front, I'm sure it probably looked like a burglary in progress. Personally, I would have been glad that neighbors were watching out for me and the cops were checking to see if I really belonged in the house. I'm a bit disturbed by our president's comments on the matter though he does admit to being biased as Gates is a friend of his. But saying the police acted stupidly? Hmmm... Quote from above: "They (Gates) then had to force the front door open from the inside." Maybe the police action is in fact an admission by the police. In Michigan the charge means a breach of the peace in a public place. Gates was breaking out of his own home. They had nothing to charge him with and had to get him out of his house into a public place to even consider a charge. Even then is Gates' front porch a public place? We usually categorized these situations as the "defendant breached a police officer's peace of mind in a private place and then was stupid enough to come out." A very sarcastic judge up here said he apparently misunderstood the facts. The judge thought that Gates was arrested because he "drove while black." It is a bullshit charge by an officer who was pissed off by whatever Gates did. Gates' mistake was that he came out. Many here seem to disagree with slaveboi's' statements, but he is right. No. He tried to pull the door open from the inside, after gaining entrance through another route. When that didnt work, he went to the front door and put his shoulder to the door. Thats when the neighbor called. Now, lets put this into perspective. IF Crowley had shown up, taken the word of someone inside that they did live there, without demanding an ID with a Picture on it, and left, he would have been slaughtered in the news because he didnt do his job correctly... guess why? because Gates is a black man in america and the police didnt give a damn about him and blacks to do their job correctly in protecting his property. ID badges are not good enough... anyone can have one altered. Everyone wants to cry... but he is 60 years old. So? think at 60 you still cant commit a crime? As rar as calling the cop racist. I would hardly think a cop who did all he could to save Reggie Lewis' life would be someone i would consider racist on any level. The cop was screwed from the word go. Even before proving he was there legally, Gates threw down the race card. Before showing any ID, he was screaming about how this is how a black man in america is treated. Yes, Gates, it IS how a black man in america is treated... how ANY man in america is treated... any woman for that matter. As i said earlier.. testosterone ruled. Neither knew when to back down. The cop left, Gates followed outside still running his mouth. Even the man who took the Picture for the papers of Gates being handcuffed said Gates was out of control. But, can yoiu imagine what Gates reaction would have been had someone actually broke into his house, the cops responded, took the man who entered at his word, that HE was Gates, then robbed Gates blind after the cops left?

OrionTheWolf -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 5:50:16 AM)
The call can establish reasonable suspicion, but not probable cause. In the scenario you asked about, the officer sees firsthand, which then establishes probable cause. This is some extra reading of a Congressional Memo on the subject here . quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I hope you understand your comment does not make sense... the call WAS the reason for the visit...the call WAS for a burglary in progress...The officer DID see two men forcing the front door...But all our speculation is just that... At least until the police release the audiotapes...Yes there are tapes and when they come out we will know which is telling the truth. It will be fun to see a racist Harvard Professor’s career blow up in his face…or see the racist Cambridge Police exposed. Butch

Lorr47 -> RE: The arrest of Henry Louis Gates: How far have we really come? (7/25/2009 5:51:51 AM)
quote: The cop was screwed from the word go. Even before proving he was there legally, Gates threw down the race card. Before showing any ID, he was screaming about how this is how a black man in america is treated. Yes, Gates, it IS how a black man in america is treated... how ANY man in america is treated... any woman for that matter. As i said earlier.. testosterone ruled. Neither knew when to back down. The cop left, Gates followed outside still running his mouth. Even the man who took the Picture for the papers of Gates being handcuffed said Gates was out of control. Gates has a 1st Amendment right to call assholes, assholes. Such is not always prudent but he has that right.

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