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RE: Its all in the mind - 7/23/2009 10:00:51 AM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		Oi biatch :p

What can I say Im a sucker for wrinkles..and currently recruiting *waits*

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

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RE: Its all in the mind - 7/23/2009 10:04:21 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

To what extent do you think that it is intent rather than action that creates power exchange?


it depends on the individual.
 
some folks perceive certain actions as dominant or submissive, for others, it is who is in control of...or has authority over...any specific action.  if it pleases Him to do whatever it is...this slave doesn't perceive that as submitting to her...His pleasure is paramount - He is the one doing the deciding of what and where and how and when.
 
for this slave, limiting Him is dominating, controlling or having authority over specific actions and isn't submissive.  as well, being limited by another, as to what one can do or when one can do it, is submitting to the pleasures and desires of another and isn't dominance.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
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RE: Its all in the mind - 7/23/2009 10:57:28 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		To what extent do you think that it is intent rather than action that creates power exchange?
 
you said it, in the title.  it is all in the mind long before action gets underway.

Dominance of a submissive is only as good as the submission she gives back.  He can be black belt in Domlyness, but if she isnt on his page you can forgetit.

im not sure if 'intent' is the same as 'intention' - i feel its a weaker derrivative anyway - intent is the 'energy' as someone put it, the momentum, the spark that gets the whole thing rolling.  without intent what do you have - i would argue very little.

being pleasured by the Dom always would border on my needs being served before his, even if his pleasure was always to pleasure me, but then that would suggest that i just lay on my back and let him at it.  sex is reciprocal.

but look at it another way.  what if sex meant that he got his jollies the whole time and you got none.  you were tormented from first to last and got no O at the end of it all - every single time - that was his pleasure and you were looking at spending (possibly) the rest of youre life with a man who never ever put youre sexual needs before his and didnt care if you were satisfied or not, cos he is the D and what he says goes. where on earth is the relationship in that.  the pleasure in his submissive and the valuing of her as a sentient being. 

a mix of both i feel - never knowing what itll be, soft and sensual, hard and cruel, intermittant -

lulled into a false sense of security is always fun  -

but always its the intent in their eyes, that distant thinking they do that reminds you (lest you should forget) that they are very definitely in charge, even when theyre being 'nice'.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/23/2009 12:55:09 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

KY, I AM that dominant but it only works for certain women and even then there is an art to it.  Sometimes just teasing or reminding someone that they hate Thai food but you do so tonight is Thai does the trick, they know you care but are getting your way. 


In this, you are spot on.  It's the recognition and acknowledgment that counts for so much.  To matter enough that they remember... and for them to make a point of letting you know that they remember...

Hey, show me that I matter to you and I don't care what we end up doing. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

... What made it magic was the work we did to learn how to turn that initial chemistry into relationship magic.  I knew the KINDS of things to do to make her feel dominated but trust me, I had to learn her.


Again, you've hit the main point.  To really know someone, it means that you are familiar with their likes, dislikes, and preferences, and can anticipate their responses.  Of course, there are varying degrees to that... but making the effort necessary to become intimately familiar with them shows not only interest but desire on your part. 

Yes, it is work.  But when you really care about someone, isn't your relationship with them important enough to make the effort?  Conversely, if you can't be bothered to make the effort, doesn't that seem to demonstrate lack of care?

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/23/2009 3:48:22 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

That aside, I don't feel that a dominant doing something to please his submissive... or giving his submissive's desires attention... automatically negates the "power exchange".   I do think, though, that balance matters... if it tips too far in favor of the submissive and the focus becomes pleasing the submissive without regard to the dominant's personal desires, then yeah... I'd have a problem with that.



This can get paradoxical very fast. My former owner was like that: he enjoyed pleasing me immensely. And yes, I had the standard response to it: it made me uncomfortable, made me feel as though he was serving me, rather than the other way around. But the thing was, that son-of-a-gun absolutly insisted upon it, insisted very forcefully, in fact, upon doing what he liked and what he thought was best for me. So what could I do? Disobediently refuse to submit to his will in this matter, which he had made explicitly clear? He did not see what he was doing as undominant; quite the contrary, to him he was doing exactly what he wanted with me, just as he should be able to do with his property. When I brought up the idea that I felt he was serving me and it made me uncomfortable, he would laugh a lot and point out all the ways I served his will, including submitting to the acts of generosity or kindness. Being kind and generous to his slave was clearly something he really enjoyed doing...and so he did it, and he insisted I accept it. And so I did. It was an odd experience: I both felt like I was submitting and didn't feel like I was submitting at the same time. Dominants can be so quirky!

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 1:54:16 PM   
Apocalypso


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Joined: 4/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

I guess it should be said that my use of the word "telepathy" is one used without any belief in the metaphysical ability. What I was alluding to is the ability to (by normal means) give the impression of some sort of telepathy (accidentally or not). And...that exactly makes your point about the people naturally good at doing it being good partners. I suppose it is essentially a skill set, just like any other. It just happens to be a skill set that induces moments of emotional euphoria, which can further attract a partner to you.


Amusingly, it's very similar (while being appplied to a more positive aim) to a skill set that most experienced flame warriors pick up  It's the ability not only to 'read' people, but to register when you've scored a 'direct hit' in some way.

It's the old trick of showbiz psychics.  In general, people only notice if you get it right...


_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 2:48:39 PM   
NihilusZero


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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

I guess it should be said that my use of the word "telepathy" is one used without any belief in the metaphysical ability. What I was alluding to is the ability to (by normal means) give the impression of some sort of telepathy (accidentally or not). And...that exactly makes your point about the people naturally good at doing it being good partners. I suppose it is essentially a skill set, just like any other. It just happens to be a skill set that induces moments of emotional euphoria, which can further attract a partner to you.


Amusingly, it's very similar (while being appplied to a more positive aim) to a skill set that most experienced flame warriors pick up  It's the ability not only to 'read' people, but to register when you've scored a 'direct hit' in some way.

It's the old trick of showbiz psychics.  In general, people only notice if you get it right...


Which brings up a very subtle an interesting issue of relationship ethics: if you have that skill set, don't realize it, but use it...it seems all is fine and dandy as it gets translated into "chemistry".

Now...if you have that skill set and do realize it...is there a sort of deception that goes on when you use it to impress (for lack of a better word) the individual you're courting?

So much of of the giddy 'getting to know someone' phase is bolstered and influenced by instances of these magical events; enough so that most people (I think) wouldn't necessarily want the interactions dressed down to their lowest common denominators.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
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(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 2:54:05 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Which brings up a very subtle an interesting issue of relationship ethics: if you have that skill set, don't realize it, but use it...it seems all is fine and dandy as it gets translated into "chemistry".

Now...if you have that skill set and do realize it...is there a sort of deception that goes on when you use it to impress (for lack of a better word) the individual you're courting?


No no no. You're looking at it all wrong.

If you have that skillset, and she doesn't realize it, then it all seems fine and dandy and gets translated into "chemistry".

If you have that skillset and she does realize it, now you're a creepy manipulator.

You see how that works? What you're calling "ethics" has fuck all to do with it. There is only one rule:

THOU SHALT NOT GET CAUGHT

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 2:58:53 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		Umm I actually don't agree, I recognise many peoples skills and admire them for it. Manipulation is something different.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 2:59:32 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Which brings up a very subtle an interesting issue of relationship ethics: if you have that skill set, don't realize it, but use it...it seems all is fine and dandy as it gets translated into "chemistry".

Now...if you have that skill set and do realize it...is there a sort of deception that goes on when you use it to impress (for lack of a better word) the individual you're courting?


No no no. You're looking at it all wrong.

If you have that skillset, and she doesn't realize it, then it all seems fine and dandy and gets translated into "chemistry".

If you have that skillset and she does realize it, now you're a creepy manipulator.

You see how that works? What you're calling "ethics" has fuck all to do with it. There is only one rule:

THOU SHALT NOT GET CAUGHT

Touche! lol

Strangely, this exact deconstruction seems to explain a good deal about my relationship history....




_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:03:22 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
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From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Umm I actually don't agree, I recognise many peoples skills and admire them for it. Manipulation is something different.

In this context, not really. We're talking about the ability to, essentially, puppeteer the human psyche in very subtle and ephemerally mutually attractive ways. People are mostly fine with manipulation as long as the result is something personally pleasing, particularly in situations like this where the means are sort of covert.

Most people don't stick the "manipulation" label on someone or someone's actions until after they have reason to demonize said person. Thinking about it more...I'm not prone to give much validity to the concept at all in most circumstances (certainly most circumstances with adults).

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:05:18 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		Is being able to read people tantamount to manipulation then? I guess manipulation is so often used as a negative term

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:10:52 PM   
TurboJugend


Posts: 481
Joined: 6/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Is being able to read people tantamount to manipulation then? I guess manipulation is so often used as a negative term


it is often used as a negative word, but;

to manipulate ; to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:13:14 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Is being able to read people tantamount to manipulation then? I guess manipulation is so often used as a negative term

Courtship = reading people = manipulation.

We all seek to woo potential partners. When I first started thinking about the 'cold reading' skillset and whether actively using it could mean manipulation, it was kind of disconcerting because it is a manipulation of sorts in an ethical sense. What occurred to me is that (as Ialdabaoth put so concisely!) ""ethics" has fuck all to do with it"...as it relates to manipulation and that manipulation itself is a phantom 'crime' most of the time.

Getting into a relationship with someone on the rebound and having it work out wonderfully to where 50+ years of happy marriage ensues wouldn't get labeled "manipulation".

Getting into a relationship with someone on the rebound and having it go to crap in two weeks, gets often stamped with "manipulation".

Both situations feature the action that would trigger the potential "manipulation" label: getting involved with someone who could be considered emotionally and mentally "compromised". Only one of the two scenarios is prone to be viewed that way in hindsight.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:19:55 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Is being able to read people tantamount to manipulation then?


Yes.

quote:

I guess manipulation is so often used as a negative term


That's because it is. It's one of those "irregularly conjugating nouns": I woo, you influence, he/she manipulates.


(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:23:18 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Is being able to read people tantamount to manipulation then?


Yes.




Having the ability doesn't mean acting on it though does it


_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:25:31 PM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero
Which brings up a very subtle an interesting issue of relationship ethics: if you have that skill set, don't realize it, but use it...it seems all is fine and dandy as it gets translated into "chemistry".

Now...if you have that skill set and do realize it...is there a sort of deception that goes on when you use it to impress (for lack of a better word) the individual you're courting?

So much of of the giddy 'getting to know someone' phase is bolstered and influenced by instances of these magical events; enough so that most people (I think) wouldn't necessarily want the interactions dressed down to their lowest common denominators.

I think you're seeing it in an overly binary fashion.

Whether deception is involved or not depends on the application, it's not inherent to the skill set.  Telling somebody what you think they want to hear about "wanting a long term relationship" when actually all you want is a fuck- not so ethical.  Telling somebody about a similar goal you've picked up on- can't see an issue.

Let alone in a relationship.  If we extend "manipulation" to mean "knowing when your girl needs a hug without being directly told" we're so out of the common usage the definition becomes useless.

It's the difference between carefully reading the object of your affections CM journal to get a good idea of her as a person and going Googlestalking so you can secretly use her posts from other forums.

I'm as grey hat as they come, but I'll only use the more negative aspects of this skillset against people I dislike.  Apart from anything else, from a purely selfish perspective, going overboard with this is a really bad way to get anything other than a meaningless fuck in my view.  Whereas making people you don't like gibber incoherently with rage is fun.

You think I'm proud of this?  Well, maybe.  But the shame you never lose. 


_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:26:26 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		people manipulate people the whole time, the trick is to manipulate a person into a direction that serves them as well as you.  when people manipulate in order to serve themselves only it becomes selfish and potentially harmful.

(in reply to TurboJugend)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 3:29:24 PM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
Having the ability doesn't mean acting on it though does it


Depends on your point of view.

For most people, knowing you have the ability - whether or not you actually do - makes them perceive you as a threat, which is a bad thing.

So yeah - it doesn't matter what you actually do; what matters is what people think you do, and what people think you might do.

The irony of that, of course, is that you can use manipulation to influence those last two - which often means that people who don't manipulate are seen as more manipulative than people who do, since they aren't spending so much time trying to appear non-manipulative.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Its all in the mind - 7/24/2009 5:05:50 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Nope DesFIP that isnt what I meant at all. I actually do not like pain or orgasm denial, I just don't like to inadvertently orchestrate every future sexual encounter.

Lets be specific if I need to be, I told him I like being called sexual slang, so he basically created a script every time we did it he would say the same things, and to be honest it got frustrating.


Okay, but did you talk to him about it? Because he may just be new to this and needs the feedback.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 80
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