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RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 4:53:01 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Nowhere in my example did I use age, so you can apologize for yet another lie about what I said.

However that is irrelevant to your "NHS policy post". The point is that once you have cost/QALY as a criterion, you no longer need to mention age as a criterion. The extension of years of life available from a procedure is obviously highly dependent on age.

US non-discrimination law recognizes that you don't have to directly reference someones age in a policy for that to be the result of a policy, thus requiring demonstration that a criterion is not simply a proxy for age. For the policy you posted to have any teeth whatsover with regard to age it would need to specify "age or any other criterion which directly or indirectly incorporates age". Goodbye cost/QALY.


quote:

Yours.
If youre expected to live 40 more years, no problem, if youre expected to live 5 more years, problem.


Seems like a clear reference to age to me.

Why are you mentioning a US law ? We were talking about the NHS and your comments on it, I added a remark about NHS policy ( Nice is part of the NHS btw ) It clearly states age cant be used as a reason to disqualify people from treatment.

Qaly is used to assess new drugs, not to assess treatment itself, yet again you fail to show me otherwise but go off on a tangent. If the new drugs are proved not to be cost effective, old treatments are implemented instead. IE, people get treatment of some kind.

Edited to fix quotes





A clear reference to age? Stop trying to cover your lie. We are talking specifically about health care, and how long you are expected to live is obviously in reference to your health status, as well as age.

I mention US law because it is properly written to exclude age as an indirect criterion. Your posted quote doesnt do that, it only limits direct use of age.

QALY is only used to assess new drugs? ORLY. Odd that they dont bother to mention that here

"The QALY is a widely used measure of both quantity and
quality of life. Its benefit for health-care evaluation is that it is
applicable to “all individuals and all diseases” and can therefore
be used to compare interventions across diseases and programs
[2]. It is thus particularly important to outcomes
researchers as they attempt to evaluate the efficacy and cost of
various health-care interventions and to health-care decisionmakers
as they weigh implementation or purchase of healthcare
technologies, including diagnostics, devices, and
medications. The QALY is particularly useful because it enables
comparisons across diseases, populations, and programs. Some
health-care systems, such as the National Institute for Health
and Clinical Excellence (NICE) of the British National Health
Service (NHS) use QALYs to determine health-care priorities
[3]. QALYs are also used in population health, to measure and
compare the health of a community.©


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 4:59:49 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Im still waiting for a link to show QALY will preclude someone from treatment.

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Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 9:05:02 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

It has to do with hypocrisy and double standards. Obviously Obama answers questions and George Bush never did for the most part. When George Bush answered a question usually he was lying.
What is the relevance of this to the present discussion?

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Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 9:06:59 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Because something exists doesnt mean it is common.
but Willbuer, you claimed it simply does not happen, and apparently it does. Care to retract your earlier statement?

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(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 9:11:08 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

No fact has ever been proven to be incorrect. And some of us actually have experience in what we're talking about. Believe it or not, not everything can conveniently be found in a link somewhere. I personally dont give a rats ass what you "accept" from me or not. Feel free to rely on people who's sole knowledge of a topic comes from google.

Never proven incorrect??? I refer you to post #153  just as an example in this thread. As for your claimed experience, well as far as I can tell you apparently have experience in just about everything, yet can rarely find anything to substantiate your claims.


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Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 9:17:33 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

I am talking about the bill.
Unless I am mistaken, the present bill doesn't give the government any such power, though with the details of the "public option" lacking it may very well do that.
quote:

And I have seen no example of a UHC system where it doesnt happen to some extent.
OK, now we are backtracking and saying it happens "to some extent", well keep in mind that in the US right now, those sorts of decisions are being made by insurance companies, so it is already happening "to some extent" in the US, its just not a faceless government bureaucrat its a faceless insurance company employee.
quote:

It has to to extract any meaningful cost savings.
Not true. Just as it is cheaper for an insurance company to offer a group plan, where the costs are averaged over all the members it is for the government. Imagine how cheap an insurance company could offer a group plan with 300+ million members....that's exactly how the public coverage plans do it as well.


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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 9:24:28 AM   
Arpig


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From: Increasingly further from reality
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quote:

and I see youre back to lying about what someone said again. Nowhere did I say that people like him arent treated.

Hmmm, lets just go back and see what you did say shall we......
quote:

It is quite simply rationing. If you dont have enough "quality years of life" to spread cost over then you dont get the treatment. Need a new knee? If youre expected to live 40 more years, no problem, if youre expected to live 5 more years, problem. "Too bad and let them die" you ask? WTF do you think happens under a QALY system?
Now I don't know how else to interpret this willbeur, it seems to state rather plainly that people with a shorter projected lifespan are denied treatments, however if you see it to mean anything different, then by all means enlighten us.


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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 10:08:50 AM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

I am talking about the bill.
Unless I am mistaken, the present bill doesn't give the government any such power, though with the details of the "public option" lacking it may very well do that.
quote:

And I have seen no example of a UHC system where it doesnt happen to some extent.
OK, now we are backtracking and saying it happens "to some extent", well keep in mind that in the US right now, those sorts of decisions are being made by insurance companies, so it is already happening "to some extent" in the US, its just not a faceless government bureaucrat its a faceless insurance company employee.
quote:

It has to to extract any meaningful cost savings.
Not true. Just as it is cheaper for an insurance company to offer a group plan, where the costs are averaged over all the members it is for the government. Imagine how cheap an insurance company could offer a group plan with 300+ million members....that's exactly how the public coverage plans do it as well.



I agree Arpig, the PRESENT BILL, is not about  the "Single Payer Health Care System".
I  wonder, IF that is an option the "powers that be" might want to consider?
It just seems much more "doable" than the plans, that are currently on the table.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 7/31/2009 10:19:35 AM >

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(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 10:27:45 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

And that isnt what is eating up health care premiums...end of life care is the single biggest component of total healthcare spending, representing 10-12% of all spending. 40% of Medicare spending is spent in the last 30 days of life.

Once again you are back to the economic reality and bioethics crossroad, and cost/benefit analysis should drive those decisions. Once again, who is better suited to make those decisions, a patient, his family, and his doc or a government bureaucrat/computer program and his doc (who is incentivized to limit those costs).
 

If they are eating up that much of Medicare (which I guess I'll have to take your word for since you didn't provide any proof) then I say we just take these scofflaws out behind the hospital parking garage and do what's necessary.

I mean, they are going to die anyway, right?

Why prolong their pain and cost the rest of us money?

Just shoot the bastards. 

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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 10:35:17 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

No fact has ever been proven to be incorrect.


I'm pretty sure a few have, unless you are a flat-Earther.

And I believe there was something about the sun revolving around the Earth.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 11:01:45 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Obamas health scare plan will not come up for a vote before the August recess. Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader put the blame on the media. Give me a break. Good grief. The dems control both houses of congress and the white house. If it's such a good bill bring it up for a vote...

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 11:13:10 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Obamas health scare plan will not come up for a vote before the August recess. Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader put the blame on the media. Give me a break. Good grief. The dems control both houses of congress and the white house. If it's such a good bill bring it up for a vote...


Come on, you know the reasons as well as I do.

And it comes down to how much the health care industry will get hit in profits and how many politicians depend on their contributions,

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Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 11:17:50 AM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Then Harry Reid should just tell the truth and not blame the media. Truth be told, 52 blue dogs  don't want to vote on this bill before an election next year.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 11:46:38 AM   
mastrcmmdr


Posts: 66
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		irrelevant

< Message edited by mastrcmmdr -- 7/31/2009 11:57:47 AM >

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 11:50:05 AM   
mastrcmmdr


Posts: 66
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		misread

< Message edited by mastrcmmdr -- 7/31/2009 11:58:05 AM >

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 11:52:55 AM   
mastrcmmdr


Posts: 66
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia


I agree Arpig, the PRESENT BILL, is not about  the "Single Payer Health Care System".
I  wonder, IF that is an option the "powers that be" might want to consider?
It just seems much more "doable" than the plans, that are currently on the table.


Barney Frank admitted yesterday that the current plan is just the first step toward Single Payer.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/reformedchicksblabbing/2009/07/barney-frank-admitting-the-pub.html

Meanwhile the government that is going to process mutiple claims for 300 million people cant get it right for 25,000 Cash for Clunker claims.

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 11:54:50 AM   
mastrcmmdr


Posts: 66
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		redundant

< Message edited by mastrcmmdr -- 7/31/2009 11:58:36 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 11:56:10 AM   
mastrcmmdr


Posts: 66
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		biased

< Message edited by mastrcmmdr -- 7/31/2009 11:58:53 AM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 12:27:37 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Single Payer is the best way for the people because it reduces costs and makes healthcare affordable for everyone. SO GO BARNEY GO!!!

(in reply to mastrcmmdr)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Why not get the Single Payer Health Care System? - 7/31/2009 2:12:11 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mastrcmmdr

irrelevant

< Message edited by mastrcmmdr -- 7/31/2009 2:57:47 PM >

quote:

ORIGINAL: mastrcmmdr

misread

< Message edited by mastrcmmdr -- 7/31/2009 2:58:05 PM >

quote:

ORIGINAL: mastrcmmdr

redundant

< Message edited by mastrcmmdr -- 7/31/2009 2:58:36 PM >

quote:

ORIGINAL: mastrcmmdr

biased

< Message edited by mastrcmmdr -- 7/31/2009 2:58:53 PM >

Whoops?

What happened willbe, forget which account you were using?  I like how you left the one post that didn't give it away.  Smooth. 

~stef


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