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RE: Good Without God - 8/2/2009 1:50:06 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn  I do agree God hates us.

However, the fact that god hates humans is no reason to believe it is a necessity for our goodness.



So, to recap....there's no God...but God hates humans.  

Fun.

all my love,
"it"

PS...."he" will be fine.



Seems logical


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RE: Good Without God - 8/2/2009 2:15:33 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

i just want to point something out. its amazing how many pople turn to god in those last few minutes.


Not indicative of anything, however, tazzy.

18 % of Americans believe the world is flat; 19% don't know from whom the U.S. won independence, with another 5% giving incorrect answers.

Emily Dickinson was correct--common belief is a poor measure of validity.






quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i just want to point something out. its amazing how many pople turn to god in those last few minutes.

It's amazing how these enormous numbers don't seem to ever show up save for the theoretical ruminations of people's imaginations.




A belief doesnt have to be proven. my belief is not something i am asking anyone else to believe. demands and stomping of feet for definitions, explanations, proof... lol... i find it all rather amusing. i have no need to prove what i believe. nor do i ask anyone else to prove what they believe. there are so many -thesis

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Arguments_for_the_existence_of_God

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Arguments_against_the_existence_of_God

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/God

now, read those sites and take from them what you wish. i have my faith in a being that doesnt demand i defend him/her, tat doesnt require me to have anything more than faith, that doesnt need someone to intercede in my behalf or rquire me to give anything of myself except positive thought.

again... no amount of denial, proof, belittlement, ect, will change my belief.... only i can do that.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/2/2009 2:31:17 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

again... no amount of denial, proof, belittlement, ect, will change my belief.... only i can do that.


And no one's asking. Be faithful in peace.

But taz, the faithful aren't good about doing that. So they get answered. Then claim persecution.

No better logic than the first.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/2/2009 2:55:08 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		oh there are those who demand to be heard without providing proof. those who would push their form of religion down others throats. those who believe their "God" is far superior to anything or anyone else. my belief doesnt entail those things.

raised catholic, my faith in that religion was shaken at the age of 13 when i overheard Father talking to my bf's father about her confession... which is supposed to be confidential. i never entered a confessional again. i do not have a faith in religion, i have faith in my belief... there is a major difference.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/2/2009 11:31:22 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

again... no amount of denial, proof, belittlement, ect, will change my belief.... only i can do that.


That right there is the absolute danger of false belief.  It's has evolved defense mechanisms in the host not allowing for any logic or proof(evidence). 

Beliefs indeed are tricky things.  It is only recently we been dealing with them though - I answered this for you in Define God.  I care, Tazzg - that is how I roll.





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RE: Good Without God - 8/2/2009 11:41:13 PM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I'm betting on some vandalism of busses but I'm pleased that the group will get to advertise. 
Davan


If vandalism does occur this post has been noted. 



Yo-boy rocket-scientist: Did you read my post?!  GO BACK, DO SO; GLEAN A CLUE. 
I've read a bunch of yours and people like you who can not make an intelligent argument regarding non-religiosity, who are reactionary and erroneously emotional, are part of the reason that non-religious people are often presumed to be zealots who are foaming at the mouth. 
You aren't as intellligent as you think you are and it shows. 
  Davan

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 12:09:03 AM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I'm betting on some vandalism of busses but I'm pleased that the group will get to advertise. 
Davan


If vandalism does occur this post has been noted. 



Yo-boy rocket-scientist: Did you read my post?!  GO BACK, DO SO; GLEAN A CLUE. 
I've read a bunch of yours and people like you who can not make an intelligent argument regarding non-religiosity, who are reactionary and erroneously emotional, are part of the reason that non-religious people are often presumed to be zealots who are foaming at the mouth. 
You aren't as intellligent as you think you are and it shows. 
Davan


I am sorry, the brain is understood by science.  I am sorry beliefs & emotions are understood by psychology(a vertical in science).

I am sorry laws of logic and rational discussion exist.  What would like me to do?  Pretend they do not?




< Message edited by Esinn -- 8/3/2009 12:10:23 AM >

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 12:38:41 AM   
DavanKael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

I'm betting on some vandalism of busses but I'm pleased that the group will get to advertise. 
Davan


If vandalism does occur this post has been noted. 



Yo-boy rocket-scientist: Did you read my post?!  GO BACK, DO SO; GLEAN A CLUE. 
I've read a bunch of yours and people like you who can not make an intelligent argument regarding non-religiosity, who are reactionary and erroneously emotional, are part of the reason that non-religious people are often presumed to be zealots who are foaming at the mouth. 
You aren't as intellligent as you think you are and it shows. 
Davan


I am sorry, the brain is understood by science.  I am sorry beliefs & emotions are understood by psychology(a vertical in science).

I am sorry laws of logic and rational discussion exist.  What would like me to do?  Pretend they do not?



No, I'd like you to actually stick to the points I raised with you and address them, not go off on some Narcissistic jaunt as you do on just about every post that I've seen. 
To recap here as I responded on the other thread about god where you were insulting people rather than attempting to engage in intelligent dialogue, here goes:
**You're not as smart as you think you are.
**Over there, you implied that because you presumed I am submissive (Error on your part) that I can't think for myself, thus proving your thoughts on submissives as lesser and that you're a misogynist. 
**You keep blathering on about psychology but you fail to take into consideration that psychology's predecessor is philosophy which walks hand in hand with theology (As, whether you like it or not, is philosophy of a sort). 
**I pointed out that I have a post-Masters' education in psychology, as luck would have it, am licensed, and have been acknowledged in Federal Court to testify as an expert witness.  So, I know a little something about psychology. 
**There are lots of us here that enjoy debate and can respect people who do not believe the same things that we do.  You do not appear to be able to retain a calm mode of discourse and it is my opinion that it discredits those of us who are able and specifically that it makes non-religious people appear to be frothing zealots when people like you who have a little bit of information who think that they can brow-beat the world into submitting to their ideologies (Tyranny of dogma, anyone?!) and it pains me when people like you tout the benefits of non-religiosity because rather than forwarding any thought, you cause people to wish to build walls. 
  Davan


_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

170NZ (Aka:Sex God Du Jour) pts

Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
-Leadership527,Jeff

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 4:20:24 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		I'll give you this much on the scientific front.

You can neither confirm nor deny the existence of God.

You can neither confirm nor deny the afterlife as Christians believe it will be.

You can neither confirm nor deny that anything you post based upon logic in this debate has any more truth to it than what might be seen as a completely irrational stance based soley upon faith.

Of course you can deny, but in the denial, the higher ground you believe you stand upon can neither truly confirm nor deny its own veracity.

And of course, neither Einstein nor Carlin could do any better than guess. Where that puts this debate is on opposite ends of polarizing extremes inhabited mostly, in this case, by those who attack others who choose faith, while completely ignoring that their own lack of faith is, by any definition, also a choice.

BS in other words.

< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 8/3/2009 4:22:57 AM >

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 4:49:42 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

oh there are those who demand to be heard without providing proof. those who would push their form of religion down others throats. those who believe their "God" is far superior to anything or anyone else. my belief doesnt entail those things.



Yes, I agree. Nothing pisses me off more than someone trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. And that would go for those trying to shove their "unbelief" down my throat also.  They post link after link trying to convince others that they are the only ones who really know what is right and wrong. There is even one who is trying to convince you that anyone who believes differently from them is ignorant and should be medicated to fix their erronious beliefs. Now I have met some fanatical religous people, but none of them ever suggested medication to get someone to agree with their point. That is going a bit over the top.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

Screw that religion is a mental illness.  I do not want to insult those who disagree with this fact, I want to have them medicated and treated.







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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 9:27:24 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		I work at a Christian run facility. I am Pagan. I have been asked not to discuss religion with the kids so as not to confuse them. The message sounds similar to the one I preach to the kids. "Do the right thing. You need no other reason for doing it then the fact that it is the right thing."
What is wrong with that? For those with religious beliefs, follow your faith. Those without are not required to be raping, pillaging, murdering brutes.

And, I hate those who want to force feed me their brand of faith and religiosity. They claim they are doing it for me but they come off as smug, self important assholes with delusions of adequacy. Those who want to sit down and have a reasonable discussion come off as living what they claim to believe.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 10:27:18 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

I have mixed emotions about this one. Generally speaking I support the atheist group's right to freedom of speech and expression but if the Bloomington Public Transportation Corporation can show that they did indeed have an active policy in place which prohibits accepting advertisements for or against "controversial public issues" and perhaps that they had rejected other advertisements for the same rationale in the past (or at least had never posted any) I would lean toward finding in their favor. I haven't researched how closely tied to the city of Bloomington the BPTC is so that's another variable... if in effect this would be an action of the city itself or is this transportation system a private entity that serves the city of Bloomington.


Whether I'm for or against the advertising would really depend on whether or not the bus company had previously been running Christian ads. I was in Indiana yesterday and there was a lot of Christian advertising and not just the Jesus loves you kind. I'm talking about dinosaurs are a lie, evolution is a lie, your going to hell sort of billboards. If the bus company was staying away from religious ads then I'd be against suing them. If they were running the above ads and it was just a position other than Christianity that was "controversial" then I'd be in favor of looking for other advertising. If they kept getting turned away then at some point I'd be in favor of suing for discrimination. Hopefully we can find more information about what actually happened instead of praising or vilifying this group based on our assumptions.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 1:21:24 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

You can neither confirm nor deny the existence of God.

Einstein nor Carlin could do any better than guess.



That old chestnut eh.......you can't disprove it so the argument has credibility.

Nonsense.

The onus is on those putting forward an argument to furnish the reader with something that gives the argument credibility.

Appealing to blind faith/can't disprove it etc doesn't cut it - which is why we live in the age of science rather than magic.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 4:10:22 PM   
mcbride


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People who think their billboard might make me stop believing in simple science.... people who think a bus ad is going to affect my belief in God.

Eejits, as my Irish uncles would've called them, from two ideological sides of the same coin. And, happily, both small minorities among their respective sides.

I'll defend their freedom of speech, because the next freedom of speech case might actually involve something important, but it's hard to see anything more complicated about the question.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 4:45:08 PM   
autoRelease


Posts: 69
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Status: offline 		I dislike religion, but I think the atheist ads are a dumb move.  The one thing zealots of all stripes have in common is that they love conflict - It helps to distract the sheep from the questions they can't answer.  Subversion is the way to deal with these people, not confrontation.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 5:01:12 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

It is evident that something as powerful as Man could never have created the universe.  Therefore, something more powerful than Man did it. 



Uhhh no. The proposition assumes that something "created" the universe. Prove that first (in the sense that "created" implies intent, since that is what would necessitate something possessing power).

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 7:22:38 PM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

You can neither confirm nor deny the existence of God.

Einstein nor Carlin could do any better than guess.



That old chestnut eh.......you can't disprove it so the argument has credibility.

Nonsense.

The onus is on those putting forward an argument to furnish the reader with something that gives the argument credibility.

Appealing to blind faith/can't disprove it etc doesn't cut it - which is why we live in the age of science rather than magic.


The onus is upon those who would attack. Period. Doesn't matter which side of the pitchfork you stand. And in the age of science, science cannot confirm nor deny.

If you have a point past that, make it. I have no real beef with either side. The lack of faith in this arena is a type of faith in itself, and that's point.

Believe whatever the hell you want to believe but what you believe is just that.

That too, is the point.

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 7:30:13 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The lack of faith in this arena is a type of faith in itself


Why?

I don't believe in fairies either. Does that make me an Afairiest?

Your statement only has meaning to people of faith as a label to define those who don't share that faith. It's not the other side--it's the attitude/need from the same side toward the perceived threat (that doesn't actually exist either) from those who don't share the faithfuls' beliefs.

And THAT is the REAL threat the faithful should examine--faith so easily threatened by insecurity.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/3/2009 7:31:39 PM >

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 7:41:58 PM   
playfulotter


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Status: offline 		I just can't believe in anything which has no total positive proof..but if if it makes you feel good....It is all good! I don't know what happens when we die and if there is a "God" and he thinks.....that we didn't believe in him we are doomed even if we were always good people...hmmmm..Then is he/she a good "God"..It is so confusing so i will think about it another time......

When I was a child about 5-7 years old... I went to a pet cemetery in Huntington Beach...i want my ashes buried there...it was such a peaceful and pretty place...i better write a will soon!

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RE: Good Without God - 8/3/2009 7:57:22 PM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

The lack of faith in this arena is a type of faith in itself


Why?

I don't believe in fairies either. Does that make me an Afairiest?

Your statement only has meaning to people of faith as a label to define those who don't share that faith. It's not the other side--it's the attitude/need from the same side toward the perceived threat (that doesn't actually exist either) from those who don't share the faithfuls' beliefs.

And THAT is the REAL threat the faithful should examine--faith so easily threatened by insecurity.




It has meaning when the opposing view is stated as fact, assumed to be fact, wherein those who make such assumtions use up their bandwidth decrying and denouncing those on the other side. These threads often turn into fish in rain-barrel competions with people quoting, linking to other people who quote some more, post verbose ramblings that no matter how ingenious the brain from which they emerge, are nothing more than beliefs of their own - all in an attempt to shoot holes through another belief.

It's like watching dems and republicans debate. It ain't going anywhere most of the time. Just big, fat, lazy circles.


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