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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:00:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

...I don't see that as a "mentor"... I see that as a BUSINESS!!!...
 
in that particular instance, this slave sees it as both...but she doesn't ascribe something sacred to mentoring that would somehow taint the whole thing if money changed hands...so it isn't an either/or thing for her.
 
the group's class schedule, website and the concept of mentoring for pay was merely brought up as an example of what some folks offer others with regards to mentoring.
 
it was neither an endorsement nor a condemnation of BDSMentors.com, their staff, course schedules or policies regarding compensation for the services they provide.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:15:15 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

From the above link:

quote:




Cost:
Single submissive - $120 (Drinks, snacks and lunch on Saturday and Sunday are included)
Couples - $370 (one must attend a companion Dom Boot Camp or Extended Boot Camp. This is a 10% discount)




I don't see that as a "mentor"... I see that as a BUSINESS!!!


Actually, there isn't any reason that mentorship can't be a business. If you're good at what you do, and can explain it in a way that is generally adaptable to a wide variety of practitioners, there is, IMO, no good reason -not- to offer a paid class.

Earlier, I mentioned my fiction-writing mentor. What I -didn't- mention is that, as part of having her as my mentor, I am taking one of fiction-writing classes. She didn't -make- me take it, but some of what I need to know is easier just to get from the class -- so we can focus private mentorship on things that she -doesn't- have a class in place for.

Just because she is teaching me something that is applicable to -many- fiction writers, and she is good enough at it that she can earn some money doing it, does that mean she won't be a good mentor? Uh, excuse me, but that makes -zero- sense. In fact, the reality that she -is- good enough at it to offer paid classes and can teach it well enough that most of her students come back for -more- of her classes after taking one makes her -more- valuable as a mentor... because she actually has proven, through being able to market her skills as a paid class, that she -can- teach and -does- know what I need to learn.

Oh, and if you want a good mentor, at least in business, art, music, writing, medicine... you get my drift, I'm sure... then you probably -want- the person who is successful enough to be able to earn money doing what xhe's doing.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/3/2009 10:16:57 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:15:27 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		A near as I can tell Lily, there are two camps of thought on the boards about this.

a) The genetic theory of D/s
There are those who believe that they were born a dom/sub/whatever and that is ingrained into their personality. Obviously, people who believe this do not understand the concept of mentoring or training. I mean seriously, nobody ever says I'm going to teach a bird to fly or a cat to pounce. In this model, it is just two people who already are whatever they are and all that awaits is for them to hookup before bliss occurs.

b) The acquired theory of D/s
This one seems to be in a tiny minority.. possibly a minority of one... me. I don't believe I was born with any secret dominance gene. I think I had some natural predlications which were greatly enhanced by the training I got as a child, then subsequently, by the training I got throughout my life as a leader in various contexts. So for someone thinking like I do, there is a LOT to be learned about both leading and following.

I don't even consider things like "protocol" to be mentoring. All the detail of how I like my drinks mixed, etc. is just conversation to me. That part, I agree, is going to be unique to every single relationship and it's pointless to discuss it in a generic sense. Then again, how much "training" does it really take to convey, "I like my gin & tonic tall and dirty."

Whether or not it is "so compicated that you need to sit a test" is up to you. But to me, the idea that I am stuck with whatever god gave me by way of genetics is WAY WAY too limiting to be acceptable. The opportunity to learn and get better at WIITWD is a precious gift in my eyes. So yeah, I'm perfectly happy to "sit a test" as you put it so long as I believe that the effort will result in a better relationship. I call that "being willing to invest in the most important thing in my life." When I became a leader in business, they DID make me attend classes and take tests. Not surprisingly, those activities greatly enhanced my leadership abilities.... a fact I'm terribly glad about now that they are being put to the test in my home life.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:17:09 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I think that it is primarily in BDSM environments that the value of mentor-ship is so heavily discounted.
A mentor gets a contributing member of the team. That 'team' can represent employer, alumni, or family. What's the equivalent in BDSM? What does a mentor in the BDSM community get out of it? The answer to that question is the "agenda" I referenced. Use any resource you like; but be aware of the agenda. From my experience vantage point; money and/or sex are #1 or #2 depending on the mentor.

In business, politics, and school; there is a 'one true way' of doing things within the particular environmental discipline you are being indoctrinated. Parent 'mentoring'? Don't hold your baby upside-down and shake? Or is there a 'one-true-way' of parenting. Granted common sense isn't common, but if you have a need to attend a parenting class to know that - you need a 24/7 mentor, not a weekend class. Same holds true with this lifestyle. In a "community" and on this website where 'one true way-ism'; raises images of the anti-Christ why put value in any mentor's one true way? If the argument is that the mentor teaches you that ANY way you are comfortable is yours and you should find your personal 'true way'; well hell - that's worth about $1.20 not $120.00 don't you think? Or is spending $120 and a weekend with a mentor enough to convince you that there is a 'one true way'?

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:18:44 AM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

A "Mentor" is supposed to ADVISE, nothing more -- including not CHARGING YOU for said alleged "Mentoring". An extreme few are truly sincere in their desire to help a new sub/slave not only find their way, but find a good Top, but those are far and few between.



And this exactly how my relationship and interaction with my boy is. He needs a shoulder to lean on, I am his shoulder. He needs advice on issues in his own life and turns to me knowing I will offer no nonsense advice and options with the understanding that he is still able to make his own choices: I only offer alternate options and examples from my own past life experiences.

First and foremost is we have never been intimate and we never will be. Not because I don't find him desirable but because I am not what he needs in a long term relationship. I will not give him false hope in thinking I want him as my life partner by trying to have sex with him. As I said, I am not what he needs for a permanent partner. Our friendship/mentorship is strictly based upon his trust in me, mutual friendship and him wanting and needing me as a confidante and sometimes an armchair counselor to help him make better and more appropriate choices in seeking his own dominant/partner.


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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:24:34 AM   
maia09


Posts: 113
Joined: 6/10/2009
Status: offline 		In my experience with being mentored as a slave, the focus was more on how to correct my own attitude if i found myself resistant to Master's wishes. Another area of focus was on services i can offer such as recipes, keeping the home more organized etc. Whatever one wishes to call it, i found mentor was helpful as it established in my mind that this wasn't necessarily about friendship. It was an agreement. Contained in this agreement was the acknowledgment on my part that i would be willing to listen and to accept correction when necessary. These are not things i find myself willing to accept from just anyone who offers an opinion or who is a friend.

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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:34:32 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

if you want a good mentor, at least in business, art, music, writing, medicine... you get my drift, I'm sure... then you probably -want- the person who is successful enough to be able to earn money doing what xhe's doing.


I know of no lifestyle "mentor" who would permit you to live in their home for the extended period of time to determine whether they are "successful" in their relationship. Using the "earn money" criteria, Bernie Madoff was a "successful" investor - until he was exposed as being a fraud.

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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:37:40 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW
Just because she is teaching me something that is applicable to -many- fiction writers, and she is good enough at it that she can earn some money doing it, does that mean she won't be a good mentor?


By your argument, then all University instructors are "mentors".  They're not.  So "mentor"? No... teacher? Sure. 



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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:45:11 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeknpet

All too often I've seen "Mentoring" used as isolationism with a sort of "let me protect you from the big bad Doms in our clique/social group.

Get rid of the bad apples, then give me a call.

It's also abdication of self responsibility.

I very seldom see mentorin in the classical sense of master/journeyman.. One clear sign.. Mentors should be of the same skillset, not a different stance. Having a Dom "mentoring" a sub? Umm shouldn't experienced subs mentor other subs? I mentor other Dominants. I'm not a sub, I shouldn't be "mentoring" a submissive any more than my submissive should mentor your Dominant.

If I want to be mentored as a carpenter, I don't look for an ironworker to do it.





I agree with you that there are predatory mentors and they tend to hang around behind the curtains waiting to pounce on newbies!

And yes, a sub would be a good mentor for a sub and a Dominant a good mentor for another Dominant. From what I have seen out on the scene, its not that uncommon either.

We could say that is just friendship but when I started on my Dominant route, I spent time looking for a well respected and knowledgeable Mistress before contacting her and asking her if she would be willing to teach me some of her techniques. She agreed to take me under her wing and I would go as far as to say that she was my mentor into this lifestyle. She became a friend as time went on but to begin with she knew very little about me other than I was eager to learn.


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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:47:44 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

...I don't see that as a "mentor"... I see that as a BUSINESS!!!...
 
in that particular instance, this slave sees it as both...but she doesn't ascribe something sacred to mentoring that would somehow taint the whole thing if money changed hands...so it isn't an either/or thing for her.
 


The very fact the "money changed hands" nullifies the alleged "mentor" dynamic.  A "mentor" is one who selects someone to "mentor", or elects to "mentor" another.  The second money has changed hands, then it is no longer a CHOICE, but a business.  A service provided to ANYONE who pays; just like shopping for any other service.  You pay, you play.  You don't, then see ya.  That is NOT a "mentor"... that's a BUSINESS.  No different from seeing a Pro-Domme, for example. Are they "knowledgeable" enough to mentor/teach? Could you "learn" something from them? Sure... BUT NOT WITHOUT PAYING FIRST.  Thus, it's a BUSINESS, not a "mentor" dynamic.



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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:51:15 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

A mentor gets a contributing member of the team. That 'team' can represent employer, alumni, or family. What's the equivalent in BDSM? What does a mentor in the BDSM community get out of it?  The answer to that question is the "agenda" I referenced. Use any resource you like; but be aware of the agenda. From my experience vantage point; money and/or sex are #1 or #2 depending on the mentor.


Well, if you're asking me what _I_ get out of mentoring, it isn't money or sex. First, I don't mentor submissive individuals. I suck as a submissive person, and consider myself only 'successful' in that aspect in that I didn't manage to kill my Keepers, nor they, me, while I went through the experience to earn my crop... which pretty much rules out the 'sex' part, since I'm not teaching other Keeper-type individuals how to give me a tongue-job or polish my floors. Since I don't charge for mentorship, and I don't even offer any classes or books on BDSM-related topics, money doesn't come into the picture for me, either. I wouldn't be ashamed of myself if it did, though -- as you'd probably figure out from my earlier post on combining mentorship and business.

So... what -do- I get out of it?

  1. Well, I get some ego-boost for -sure-, because it feels really good to know that someone has watched what you do and thinks it is worthwhile enough to ask you to help them to figure out how to make their -own- goals a reality.
  2. It also hones my communication and instructional skills... it helps me learn how to communicate what I do and what I am thinking while I'm doing it to a broader range of individuals with a greater base of goals over time.
  3. I also get a sense of satisfaction out of watching someone else succeed in hir goals. I don't consider it "altruistic". I don't believe in altruism. I know that I do it because it makes me feel good to see that person use what I've put out there and take off with it. In fact, I love it when people I've mentored exceed their own expectations and everyone else's, too -- now that -really- gives me a big ol' boost.
So that's what _I_ get out of mentorship.


quote:

Parent 'mentoring'? Don't hold your baby upside-down and shake? Or is there a 'one-true-way' of parenting. Granted common sense isn't common, but if you have a need to attend a parenting class to know that - you need a 24/7 mentor, not a weekend class.


Actually, most parents, at least in my limited experience as a 15 year midwife, -do- lean on others who have been through the experience of parenting successfully to obtain tips and guidelines for succeeding at their own parenting challenges. It isn't about "one true way". It is about finding a framework from which to build, and avoiding common pitfalls. It isn't about not shaking the baby upside down. It's about knowing how to handle a kid who doesn't stop throwing tantrums even with time outs or spankings, etc., or dealing with a teenager who is terrified of his impending graduation from high-school because he has NO idea what he wants to do with his life, and none of your suggestions have worked so far. MOST people find it helpful to have someone to turn to when things like this come up, and being a good parent sometimes means knowing who to talk to who may -have- the answers if we don't have them ourselves, and not being too proud to do so.

quote:

Same holds true with this lifestyle. In a "community" and on this website where 'one true way-ism'; raises images of the anti-Christ why put value in any mentor's one true way?

You put value in what has been shown to be successful, just like in any other walk of life. If someone's "one true way" has been successful and you find that you want to try it out, then you go to the person who has had the success and see if it works for you. It's the same with -anything- we do. Heck, I've used the example a couple of times of music, art, and writing. All of those have their own individual expressions from each particular person, but mentorship is -still- common in the field, because no matter what we do, if someone else has done it, too, there are common areas from which mentorship can be beneficial. Sure, a mentor can't tell you how to draw, or write, or play -- but he can teach you how to write a cover-letter that will encourage an editor to actually want to -read- what you've written and improve your chances of getting published.

quote:

If the argument is that the mentor teaches you that ANY way you are comfortable is yours and you should find your personal 'true way'; well hell - that's worth about $1.20 not $120.00 don't you think? Or is spending $120 and a weekend with a mentor enough to convince you that there is a 'one true way'?


There -is- a One True Way... but each person has their -own- "One True Way", and every OTW overlaps every other OTW on certain common ground. It is typically in those 'common ground' areas that the mentor finds a purpose. Whether it's worth $1.20 to you, $1200.00 or nothing really is up to the individual. If it isn't worth anything, then one -clearly- wouldn't seek out a mentor. If it's worth something, but you don't know what is -reasonable- for the market, then don't sign up without doing some research first and getting some comparisons to go on.

One other thing that I'd like to mention is that most successful people are -busy-. The idea that someone is going to drop everything to mentor another person just doesn't seem reasonable. Yes, for some folks, the sense of pride and purpose is enough, but if someone is busy enough, and mentoring another takes time from their business and their family obligations, then it seems -polite- to me to make sure that there is some kind of remuneration in the mix, and I don't see this as outrageous at all (especially since most business mentors -do- charge for their time and nobody bats an eye... in fact, corporate interests pay a huge chunk every year on behalf of their employees for the mentorship and training opportunities offered by decent mentors).

Dame Calla


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***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 10:53:21 AM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline 		FR before reading the thread...
mentoring.
Yes i'm looking for one.


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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 11:00:05 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'd have to agree with Calla on that one.

Why can't it be just the fact that I enjoy teaching?  Why can't it just be the thrill that I like passing on what I've learned to someone else?


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 11:07:03 AM   
Drakontos


Posts: 167
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline 		Everyone's thoughts on mentoring differ; as clearly seen from this thread itself.

I do agree, to an extent, that 'mentoring' has a bad reputation when used in relation to message boards such as this one. I don't however, discourage or discount the advantages that having a mentor can bring.

A good example is several years ago, I was approached by a young man for advice on why his relationships always ended so badly. We had known each other casually through the community for several years. He came to me because in his words 'he saw that though my relationships often did not last for more than 5 years or so, we always parted as friends and with no animosity or blame between us'. He wanted to know what he was doing wrong that his always ended so badly, with both he and his partner harboring bad feelings. It was something that continued to distess him.

I had observed him in several of his relationships and had noticed some behaviors that were constant and damaging. I brought these up to him, discussed them with him, and helped him find ways to change those behaviors. Things are not perfect with him now, but he has become much better at relationships and communication.

Mentoring or just helpful advice? Both, and yet one or the other. I see it as mentoring; others will see it as just helpful advice; and still others, may see it as a combination of both.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 11:09:40 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

I know of no lifestyle "mentor" who would permit you to live in their home for the extended period of time to determine whether they are "successful" in their relationship.


No, but most of us can figure out, when we've spent time in a community, which members of the community have relationships that we find 'successful' and which ones don't. It doesn't take living with the person full-time to know those things, and we -do- have access to other resources. Simple conversations with a variety of people, and some general, non-threatening questions, especially over time, will often generate enough answers to be able to figure out if a given person has anything that you want to know.

Which brings me to "where do mentors come from?" Lots of people bounce around saying "Oh, let me mentor you!" Mentors typically don't 'hire' themselves, though -- mentorship is most often something that is selected by the -mentee-. Someone seeking a mentor observes, quantifies, and chooses a person as a mentor based on that mentee's goals and internal assessment. The job of the mentor, at this point, is to take a look at what the mentee is asking of hir, and to figure out whether xhe's really comfortable -guiding someone- in those areas. If not, the mentor can just say "no, thanks -- I don't really feel comfortable with that arrangement". If the potential mentor knows someone else who -may- be a better fit, xhe can say so, or not -- there's no obligation to recommend someone else, but sometimes it's nice if one knows who is doing what in the community, just to give someone who is clearly interested in progressing a leg up. If the mentor's response is a 'yes', then the two people get to negotiate parameters -- what, specifically will be covered; whether there will be any costs; who is going to handle which parts of the practical issues like supplies, location, etc.; what this mentorship -won't- cover; and other stuff. When (if) they both agree, you have a mentorship situation. If they don't agree, then, once again, either party can walk away or find or recommend someone else.

Nobody -has- to use mentorship, but it seems like there is a lot of bad sentiment instead of really looking at the process and goal. Sure, there are people out there who are clamoring to be mentors for all the wrong reasons, and yes, most of the time a little common sense would alleviate quite a few mis-steps, but that doesn't devalue the concept of mentoring, any more than poor test grades devalue the -concept- of education.

Dame Calla


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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 11:25:58 AM   
Jeptha


Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally
...I have spoke to many people who say that they 'teach' people on both sides of the kneel, teach them what? Sure you can teach skills but how can you ever teach someone how to be what feels right for them? How can you tell them what works? ...

Good questions - I'm not sure what the difference between mentoring and teaching is, if any... But , going off of the part I've quoted above, mentoring, to me, implies something more conceptual than just nuts 'n bolts instruction.

Maybe it has something more to do with how to interpret situations... being able to see "the big picture" and fit things within proper context.

I dunno.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zeknpet

.. One clear sign.. Mentors should be of the same skillset, not a different stance. Having a Dom "mentoring" a sub? Umm shouldn't experienced subs mentor other subs? I mentor other Dominants. I'm not a sub, I shouldn't be "mentoring" a submissive any more than my submissive should mentor your Dominant.
Maybe ~ but most of the things I'm interested in (for example) have to do with the psychological aspects of things (things like objectification, humiliation, interogation scenes, etc). In that case, I think subs might have just as valuable insights as dominants, since they experience first hand the psychological effects, any 'cognitive dissonance', etc.

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RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 11:31:59 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I'd have to agree with Calla on that one.

Why can't it be just the fact that I enjoy teaching?  Why can't it just be the thrill that I like passing on what I've learned to someone else?



Absolutely and lets face it, we all have an ego and if its used positively then whats the harm?

Passing on knowledge of things such as 'safe needle play' is not something I do lightly but about three years ago I taught someone, who I very much related to, how to do this. He has gone on to be bloody awesome with needles and is now teaching me some of his finer skills. He always introduces me to his friends as the woman who got him started in all of this and that always puts a big proud grin on my face


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 11:34:07 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

most successful people are -busy-. The idea that someone is going to drop everything to mentor another person just doesn't seem reasonable.
But for money, or with the possibility of sex, they are less busy, and are just allowing their apprentices to be appreciative?

quote:

it seems -polite- to me to make sure that there is some kind of remuneration in the mix
Really? Everyone who is "busy" who helps deserves some remuneration? Isn't that a rationalization for those mentors not taking cash to require sex as a form of compensation?
quote:

get some ego-boost for -sure-
No doubt the #3 reason after money and sex.

quote:

(especially since most business mentors -do- charge for their time and nobody bats an eye... in fact, corporate interests pay a huge chunk every year on behalf of their employees for the mentor-ship and training opportunities offered by decent mentors).
Exactly, and coming out of a weekend business retreat or mentoring program you given a OTW focused upon the corporate mission statement. The reason corporations pay for such a event is two fold; to find out who doesn't fit into the corporations OTW and to identify people who will excel in it. This comes from the perspective of being a facilitator, both internal and as a consultant, for many such events. I facilitated drawing out the abilities of the participants. If their abilities fit into the corporate dynamic I guess they would see me as a 'mentor'. Reality was, I was much more a corporate mentor than I was a mentor for anyone having to sit through the program. I became 'friends' with many; often by those who said; "Thanks - I want no part of what you were talking about."

Pointing to the best and longest lasting mentoring that anyone can reference. Most of the lessons I learned in this lifestyle came from examples of what I did NOT want to do. I'll stipulate that many, of the self professed 'lifestyle mentors' provide that reference point.

quote:

may -have- the answers
The also may -not have- any answers. They way you find out they don't is by spending the money up front? At least at church their is no minimum donation requirement if you don't like their OTW sermon.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 11:34:57 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Maybe ~ but most of the things I'm interested in (for example) have to do with the psychological aspects of things (things like objectification, humiliation, interogation scenes, etc). In that case, I think subs might have just as valuable insights as dominants, since they experience first hand the psychological effects, any 'cognitive dissonance', etc.


Honestly, what's worked best for us in these situations (both receiving and giving) is having a -team- approach to the experience. If it is something that has a powerful psychological component for the bottom, having the perspective of the top and the input of the bottom as a combined resource has been pretty effective.

DC


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to Jeptha)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The concept of mentoring - 8/3/2009 7:09:24 PM   
MercilessMarcy


Posts: 80
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline 		Personally, I like the "introducing them to the lifestyle", rather than mentoring.  I recently had the priviledge of introducing a 23 year old lady to the lifestyle.  I did this in the privacy of my own home, with subs who were experienced.  I let her pick from any toys she wanted.  I gave only two rules.  No permanent marks and they have a safe word you must respect. Then I turned her loose. A grand time was had by all.  She felt safe and free to try anything her heart desired. 
 
 I mentor a young lady at our local school.  I act as a  teacher, coach, and friend. I teach life skills, common sense, & cheerleader with the agreed upon goal being getting her in and through college.
 
Both are a priviledge, but one is a job.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)
Profile   Post #: 40
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