RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (Full Version)

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AAkasha -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 11:25:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
"Please pick up some milk on the way home." 


- Would suit me fine, though minus the 'please', preferably.  Yum, etc.

quote:

"My slave. I want you to get milk on the way home, and I'm timing you.  As you hustle your nasty ass through those aisles, keep in mind that I am waiting, and I am thinking of delicious ways to torture you..by the way, I hope your cock isn't too HARD in that chastity device right now...Guess what color panties I am wearing?"


- Would make me cringe.  Ouch.

Just saying.







I made it sort of extreme and campy to illustrate the point. In real life, sometimes it's just mere body language, appropriate pauses in speech, a smile at the right time, or body contact. 

Akasha




PeonForHer -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 12:10:06 PM)

I know.  I was just expressing a preference for the 'minimalist' style of command, I suppose.  Literally, "Get some milk on the way home".   That was fun even for me, in the past, when I've played at top.




hardbodysub -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 12:39:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Not to make fun of your plight, but if she's a service top, you already have what 90% of the males on this site are looking for.


I'm going to have to disagree with that. I really don't think a "service top" is what 90% of the males on CM are looking for. Quite the contrary, in fact. If that were true, we wouldn't have all the dommes complaining about the lack of "service subs".




LillyoftheVally -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 1:45:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DePubed

I am sorry that instead of reflecting on your original question "Chastity-the thin line between dominance and neglect" so many here have been critical of you personally, and made judgements about you, your wife, your relationships, etc.

Some helpful suggestions are what this fellow is asking from us to whom he has turned to for advice.


I answered the question framed in context, that is more useful in my opinion. You can't force someone to be something that they are not, that is not being critical it is using the information provided. The fact that his wife is so willing to do so much makes her pretty fantastic again using the information provided. I offered him advice put himself in her shoes, I won't pander to someone who I don't agree with. I actually do agree with someone else who made the point that the post was not badly written, but I do think that it comes across as complaining. I think you can only ask so much. If you want a dominant allow them to be dominant therefore make a decision. It is fair enough if she wants to do tease and denial but if she doesn't then she doesn't surely that is her prerogative.

Dominating means making the choices, that means really that if she doesn't want to do chastity she shouldn't have to. In relation to what he can do, well if she is a service top he has to tell her what to do

"ok put me in the device now, ok and now tease me, ok and now leave me alone ok and now tease me again" that is the only way, he says she is submissive so that would work. If he does lean toward submission however that will not be fulfilling to him therefore what he should do is what he is told.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
The answer is, loving partners should not ignore one another. BDSM should make you feel existent, not non existent


I am going to be very eloquent now ... bollocks. Many people who engage in wiitwd actively ignore because it is fulfilling, that does not mean that they do not love each other. Thing is, and I have said this a few times, if you want to submit then you have to submit to the will of another. That can mean that if they do not want to then they can fuck off for months without talking to you, of course you have to decide if you can cope with that or not.

quote:


Chastity is:

(1) One part you being chaste.

(2) A second part your wife treating you a certain way. Being a top or Dom does not excuse her from this responsibility.


No, chastity is not engaging in sexual activities, it does not have to involve anything other than that. I know that in fantasy land it is all about bulging penises and all that malarchy but not always in reality, there is no 'responsibility' at all. One would hope that the responsibility of the dominant is two things, to be happy and ensure the submissives safety, the submissives responsibility is to enjoy ensuring the dominants happiness.

The end.




LadyPact -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 1:55:16 PM)

hbs, I think they are saying something of the same thing.  The Dommes tend to think there are a lack of submissives, especially those who actually do serve.  I say that as opposed to bottoms, who are quite plentiful.




LillyoftheVally -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 1:58:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Not to make fun of your plight, but if she's a service top, you already have what 90% of the males on this site are looking for.


I'm going to have to disagree with that. I really don't think a "service top" is what 90% of the males on CM are looking for. Quite the contrary, in fact. If that were true, we wouldn't have all the dommes complaining about the lack of "service subs".


A service top is a top who does as the sub tells them, everything to make them happy, a service sub is a sub who wants to submit and serve, I would therefore say that what you have said is rather a contradiction. If most subs want a service top then it makes sense that Dommes complain about the lack of service subs




LadyPact -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 1:59:04 PM)

I'll tell you what there, sweetcheeks.  The day I allow you to dictate how I answer anything on these boards, or how I chose to do so, is the day I'm hanging it up.  Don't count on that day happening, for that reason, for a very, very long time.

Welcome to the forums.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DePubed

I am sorry that instead of reflecting on your original question "Chastity-the thin line between dominance and neglect" so many here have been critical of you personally, and made judgements about you, your wife, your relationships, etc. The original question still stands: for enforced chastity how to recognize the thin line between dominance and neglect. Maybe some people here can answer that question in the general way that it has been asked without focusing on any specific person or situation.
Does anyone have any positive helpful suggestions if, for example, a Dominant IS being dominant but the submissive 'feels' erroneously that it is neglect?
Or what if, the Dominant IS actually being neglectful, not as a way of being deliberately dominant but simply unaware and, well, neglectful; how can a submissive handle these feelings.
Some helpful suggestions are what this fellow is asking from us to whom he has turned to for advice.







Reigna -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 2:37:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bdspirit
... the challenge I have is that as a service top, she isn't wired to think about the erotic element of this experience as I am (not to mention being reminded 24/7 but the CB).  At one level, I know this and she acknowledges that I feel much more intensely than she does. Part of it is simply the challenge of who she is (and is not) which I accept though am guilty of always hoping that the true dominant will emerge.  Part of it is (my view) is also simply a lack of effort or focus on her part and that's what conversation is all about. 


I would advise you to steer clear of the arguments and associated mind-fucks about service tops vs. true submissives vs. big-D Dominants and all of that. In fact, I'd advise you to stop thinking of your wife as a service top; the term is insulting both in general usage and in this specific context.

Instead, focus on the fact that regardless of labels or motivations, your wife is (a) in charge, and (b) less interested in chastity than you are. So ... what do you do when you want something more than the boss does?




littlesarbonn -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 4:06:09 PM)

Maybe it's just me, and my realization that I'm probably never going to find what I'm seeking, but I'd much rather find a woman who was interested in putting me in chastity than a woman who is willing to put me into chastity because it's something I want. I know some people might not find a difference in that, but to me there feels like a world of difference in that, and probably the reason I'll never find it, come to think of it.




hardbodysub -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 8:24:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Not to make fun of your plight, but if she's a service top, you already have what 90% of the males on this site are looking for.


I'm going to have to disagree with that. I really don't think a "service top" is what 90% of the males on CM are looking for. Quite the contrary, in fact. If that were true, we wouldn't have all the dommes complaining about the lack of "service subs".


A service top is a top who does as the sub tells them, everything to make them happy, a service sub is a sub who wants to submit and serve, I would therefore say that what you have said is rather a contradiction. If most subs want a service top then it makes sense that Dommes complain about the lack of service subs



That's the first time I've ever seen "service top" defined that way. I've always seen it used in quite the opposite context - a top who wants a sub for nothing but service.




AAkasha -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 8:43:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Not to make fun of your plight, but if she's a service top, you already have what 90% of the males on this site are looking for.


I'm going to have to disagree with that. I really don't think a "service top" is what 90% of the males on CM are looking for. Quite the contrary, in fact. If that were true, we wouldn't have all the dommes complaining about the lack of "service subs".


A service top is a top who does as the sub tells them, everything to make them happy, a service sub is a sub who wants to submit and serve, I would therefore say that what you have said is rather a contradiction. If most subs want a service top then it makes sense that Dommes complain about the lack of service subs



That's the first time I've ever seen "service top" defined that way. I've always seen it used in quite the opposite context - a top who wants a sub for nothing but service.



"Within a BDSM context, a Service Top is a partner who is the active participant, applying the activities or techniques of BDSM "play" upon (a) bottom partner(s), but who does not exercise control or dominance over the situation. The application of such activities may be requested, or even directed, by the bottom partners(s) who have de facto dominance of the context."

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_top




LadyAngel1 -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 8:57:26 PM)

Chastity is a special area of interest of mine.  I have had several relationships where my male was placed in chastity, often for very extended periods of time.   To me, chastity is one of the most bonding experiences a Dominant can have with a submissive and vice-versa.  However, having a male in chastity can be a lot of work.  It was never about placing him in chastity and forgetting about what lies beneath.  In addition to making sure the physical aspects remained healthy, the emotional connection was one that I nurtured regularly.  Making a male feel the constant, throbbing restraint of the device was fun for me, and no doubt made him feel more submissive to me, bringing us closer and closer together.

However, I was the one who initiated the chastity training, and I enjoy seeing my male's "malehood" encased in plastic, or metal... if I didn't enjoy these things, I would likely ignore it as well.  Keep in mind, that your being in chastity may be a big turn-off to your wife, yet she is trying, the same way you may try to be more dominant half of the year, but does it really feel right to you? 

I don't equate somewhat ignoring the chastity issue to be the same as tying someone up and leaving them alone, but to me, chastity without the proper emotional connection felt by both  parties just isn't chastity at all.

Maybe time will make more sense of things.  Maybe not.  Good luck.




cloudboy -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 9:02:33 PM)

quote:

big-D Dominants


First time I've seen that one. This thread has cracked me up. Nothing like prescriptive, judgmental, and unhelpful advice (from some... not all.)

Its funny, because I just don't subscribe to the BDSM school of thought that dominants have all the power and can do whatever they want. Short term, that might work, but after that I'd expect HEAVY turnover. Dominants have a responsibility to their partner and their relationship, and if they fail in those areas -- the relationship won't work.

The thing I like about the OP is that thematically it was about imperfect partners trying to venture off the traditional road and problem solve. That's the best --- adult life with some childish adventure mixed into it.




LadyNTrainer -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 9:04:02 PM)

An article I wrote some time ago that you may find relevant.

The Language of Love

Some of us are hardwired for DS or SM or both. Some of us - even in the BDSM community - aren't. When a partner who's hardwired ends up with a partner who isn't, their languages of love may literally be different. 

Love to me is the awesome commitment of total physical trust, the gifts of body and soul given and received, desire fierce enough to leave its mark on willing flesh. Romance is the security of real bondage, knowing that you are valued enough to be literally held, and you value your partner enough to restrain him. 

The gift of dominance is as bright and beautiful as the gift of submission, and as awesome in its scope. To take the responsibility, the burdens of another's life, completely into your hands for a moment so that they can rest - this is true love, to me.  To submit one's self utterly into those hands, trusting, is a gift whose worth cannot be measured in this world, and nothing material could ever hope to match it. Those things are in me to the core, and they will be with me forever. 

Yet I have had partners who did not feel or believe quite the same things, and the result is hurt that runs deep. Intellectually, one can understand that some people are simply different in their languages of love. Emotionally, you feel abandoned, and lost, and very much alone. The blow to your self esteem can be a heavy one - what is wrong with you that your lover does not want you this way, does not trust you enough to give you the gift of himself? 

The answer is nothing, but you cannot believe. And the hurt goes on.


Some people come into a relationship with ideas like this.  “If this person loved me, they should automatically respond this way, and they should automatically know what I really mean and how I feel without my having to explain.  They responded differently or they didn’t know what I really meant, therefore they don’t love me.”  If you have ideas like this, or anything resembling them, please understand that this is the emotional equivalent on a relationship of dragging a five hundred pound weight around.  From your nipple rings.   It’s going to make for a whole lot of hard work, pain and frustration. 

You are not dating a psychic, and not everyone’s instinctive “language of love” is automatically the same, not even when they are both into BDSM.  That’s really okay, or more to the point, two people who understand that clearly enough have a pretty good chance of making it okay. 

The first step of learning how to translate different love languages is letting go of the idea that your lover speaks the same one that you do.  Let go of the idea that their inability to say the right verbal and physical “words” of love and caring or dominance and submission in your language actually means what your instincts are telling you it means.  They probably are saying those words; they’re just saying them in their own language.  You can’t hear them, and so you feel perpetually unloved and unwanted.  Yes, that hurts terribly.  I’m sorry it hurts. You and your partner deserve so much better.  That’s why we’re working on communicating about this stuff, even when it’s awkward or hard or time-consuming.

The second step (and maybe the hardest of all) is to let go of the idea that there is something fundamentally wrong with you because you have wanted and loved your partner so hard and so long and never felt truly loved or wanted or cared for in return.  Maybe you’ve stayed in the relationship because they say they care, but yet they don’t say or do the things that you know really mean caring, or dominance, or submission.  Your partner is a good person and there is a lot you admire about them.  They would never be cruel or cold or abusive to you on purpose, and you may actually be ashamed of how much it feels that way to you on the inside.  So you don’t leave, even when it hurts.  And your self-esteem suffers, horribly, because you are staying in a relationship where it feels like love only gets lip service.  You feel like you cannot be all that beautiful or desirable, or that you’ll never be a good enough dominant, or that you will always be unwanted and unlovable. 

Guess what – there is nothing wrong with you, and your partner was telling you the truth all along.  You really are loved.  The problem is not that you’re a bad submissive or a bad dominant, and certainly it’s not that you’re ugly or undesirable or a bad person.  It’s just that you and your partner are speaking different languages.

If you bear those particular wounds, they are likely to run deep.  It’s going to take a lot of time and love – the right expressions of love, in your language – to heal them.   In some cases you are not going to be able to heal them enough to make it work with the partner who hurt you.  In other cases you will.  Both partners have to be willing to go through these steps and to understand what went wrong, and why.  And most importantly, what needs to be done to fix it.  It’s a lot of hard work, and you’re going to have to decide whether it’s worth it, and whether you can do the work.

The last step is to identify and learn each other’s languages, without arguing over which one is “right” or “better” than the other.  Neither one is.  Leave your idea of how other people “should” think and feel and respond at the door; that’s what got you into this mess in the first place.  Your partner’s deepest and most instinctive language of dominance and submission, of love and caring, is totally different from yours.  Your concept of “should” does not apply to them.   Drop it right now, or you won’t get any farther.  If you can’t accept the fact that your partner does not instinctively think like you do and will never instinctively think like you do, most likely this isn’t going to work for you.  They can learn to meet more of your needs by “translating”, but it’s going to be your job to do an equal amount of translation so that you can say all those things back to them. 

You are probably not going to become a perfectly fluent native speaker of your partner’s language.  You will however be able to learn some good translation skills.  You can learn to speak the most crucial love language words to them and to hear those words clearly from them in turn.  I don’t know what those words are going to be for you and your partner.  Some of those words may be verbal and others will be physical.    Doing these exercises will help you identify – and learn how to speak – your partner’s languages of love, dominance and submission.

For the submissive:

1. I feel loved when:
2. I feel dominated when:
3. I feel controlled when:
4. I feel appreciated and valued when:
5. I feel securely owned when:
6. I feel attractive and desirable when:

For the dominant:

1. I feel loved when:
2. I feel the desire to be dominant when:
3. I feel confident in my dominance when:
4. I feel appreciated and valued when:
5. I feel secure in my ownership and dominance when:
6. I feel attractive and desirable when:

Share your answers, and listen without judging or criticizing.  There are no right or wrong answers, only honest ones.  For the purposes of your discussion, the word “should” does not exist, and you are not allowed to use it in reference to your partner’s feelings.





cloudboy -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 9:13:59 PM)


Its true that discord is often less about substance and more about perception and interpretation. I think your method would definitely help get things out on the table.

Two thumbs up.




LadyPact -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 9:23:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Not to make fun of your plight, but if she's a service top, you already have what 90% of the males on this site are looking for.


I'm going to have to disagree with that. I really don't think a "service top" is what 90% of the males on CM are looking for. Quite the contrary, in fact. If that were true, we wouldn't have all the dommes complaining about the lack of "service subs".


A service top is a top who does as the sub tells them, everything to make them happy, a service sub is a sub who wants to submit and serve, I would therefore say that what you have said is rather a contradiction. If most subs want a service top then it makes sense that Dommes complain about the lack of service subs



That's the first time I've ever seen "service top" defined that way. I've always seen it used in quite the opposite context - a top who wants a sub for nothing but service.



"Within a BDSM context, a Service Top is a partner who is the active participant, applying the activities or techniques of BDSM "play" upon (a) bottom partner(s), but who does not exercise control or dominance over the situation. The application of such activities may be requested, or even directed, by the bottom partners(s) who have de facto dominance of the context."

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_top



Thank you both AAkasha and lily for saving Me the keystrokes. 




Andalusite -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 9:47:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DePubed
Or what if, the Dominant IS actually being neglectful, not as a way of being deliberately dominant but simply unaware and, well, neglectful; how can a submissive handle these feelings?


DePubed, I think the first thing to do is bring it up to the Dominant, in a respectful, non-accusatory way, not in the middle of sex or a scene. Specifically try to be as calm and relaxed as possible. In my relationship with my Master, and my previous relationships with my previous Dominant for 3 years, I've been free to make requests. Sometimes, I don't get what I ask for right away, or they decided for whatever reason to *not* give it to me, but I'd say 80-90% of the time, they were willing to indulge me, if only on their time-table. Once I brought it up, I tried not to nag or focus on it, and leave it in their hands. My first BDSM-oriented relationship lasted for 5 years, with the submissive who introduced me to it. We had a similar dynamic - he didn't get everything he wanted, but I enjoyed making him happy and fulfilled.

As much as possible, try to get into the "what's going on in my head" motivations and reactions, and what you really want and need from it. Like littlesarbonn brought up, it's not just the physical sensation, there's a lot of headspace and motivation aspects. Also, your partner may very well have lots of ideas for other things to do that will have a similar effect, once they know how to push your buttons. There are so many ways to do the same thing, especially if you involve a lot of talking/music/etc. to set the mood, so you can get a completely different experience from the same activity.

I wouldn't necessarily assume that bdspirit's wife doesn't enjoy chastity from his description, but their expectations and interpretations of it are obviously very different. Even if it's more of a neutral thing for her, she can still get some enjoyment out of him getting what he wants and needs, but ideally, they can *both* get a lot of happiness from it. bdspirit, can you step up the service a bit of your own initiative? Is she ok with you initiating flirting/kissing/massages/etc.? She may have the impression that you don't *want* her to do things to you while you're in chastity, that it would mess it up somehow. Don't go straight for trying to do oral sex on her, or *you* wearing a strapon which she rides while you are left wanting, although those are both possibilities you can mention to her in abstract, when you aren't playing. Don't bring it up as a complaint, tell her how much the chastity is driving you wild for her, how much you want to be allowed to express your passion for her, how much you want to serve her and do helpful things for her. That's a lot more likely to spark *her* desire!




LillyoftheVally -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/4/2009 11:50:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

big-D Dominants


First time I've seen that one. This thread has cracked me up. Nothing like prescriptive, judgmental, and unhelpful advice (from some... not all.)


After a quick scan through I have noticed that you have been very useful in doing all those things that you abhor so much. You can't tell people how to answer a question, also I see a distinct lack of judgement in the context that you are using it people throw that word around a little to speedily in my opinion. All opinions are judgements if you wanted none well then there would be no place for a forum.

quote:


Its funny, because I just don't subscribe to the BDSM school of thought that dominants have all the power and can do whatever they want.


That is fair enough, I don't subscribe to the idea that someone who submits (yields to another) can dictate what they want to do for the duration

quote:


Short term, that might work, but after that I'd expect HEAVY turnover. Dominants have a responsibility to their partner and their relationship, and if they fail in those areas -- the relationship won't work.


I have seen this idea many times before, that the Domianant as the one in charge is responsible for everything, actually if you are advocating working relationships then the key is compromise which simply means that I get have the same opinion but change the wording. In a relationship you have to make compromises this means not putting too much of your own shit on someone else. If this woman has very little interest in dominance then it makes sense to compromise, she can engage in what she feels comfortable with but do not push it to the extent that you are asking her to do too much, as has been mentioned chastity is a difficult concept for many and may be a bridge too far.

quote:


That's the best --- adult life with some childish adventure mixed into it.


I fail to see how having a more complete form of power exchange is less adult like, I believe that is transference which is cool but maybe something you should recognise.

I don't expect you to reply to me directly just another message banging on about how people aren't responding the way that you like. Never mind though whatever makes you feel better.




ignoreme -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/5/2009 3:04:32 AM)


quote:



That's the first time I've ever seen "service top" defined that way. I've always seen it used in quite the opposite context - a top who wants a sub for nothing but service.

That confused me at first, too




PeonForHer -> RE: Chastity, the thin line between dominance and neglect (8/5/2009 3:10:37 AM)

Good lord, LNT, you earn the 'Trainer' part of your nickname, don't you? 

You are probably not going to become a perfectly fluent native speaker of your partner’s language. 

I couldn't agree more.  That would be true even of vanillas.  With those involved in D/s, though, it's even more true.  We have to figure that people involved in D/s have many, many years of private thoughts and fantasies behind them.  These will have evolved into something approaching a worldview of how a D/s relationship should, or even does, work.  'A sub will act like this', thinks the Domme; 'a Domme will act like this', thinks the sub.  Never a day goes by when I read or hear of what a Domme thinks without me, in turn, thinking "Oh!  So that how it works for you."




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