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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 3:56:45 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Several of the people in the videos claim to be registered Democrats who go to these meetings on their own accord. A lot of them are older too, and their rage seems very real.

You can hardly manufacture that kind of rage... and so far as the Democrats claiming its all astroturfed, that falls flat on my ears when I see Obama's emails calling for organized Democrat turnout at these events to shout down anyone who is trying to be heard who may be against his proposals.

HE seems to be the one who is guilty of astroturfing, at the very least AS guilty as anyone else is.



Bullshit.

It is these protesters who started this nonsense by being actively encouraged to shout down any meaningful debate and create as much disruption as possible at these town hall meetings.


Right-Wing Harassment Strategy

This morning, Politico reported that Democratic members of Congress are increasingly being harassed by “angry, sign-carrying mobs and disruptive behavior” at local town halls.

For example, in one incident, right-wing protesters surrounded Rep. Tim Bishop (D-NY) and forced police officers to have to escort him to his car for safety.

This growing phenomenon is often marked by violence and absurdity. Recently, right-wing demonstrators hung Rep. Frank Kratovil (D-MD) in effigy outside of his office.


Rep. Doggett: If Health Care Supporters Don't Speak Up, Insurance Companies Will Win

Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D-TX), whose health care town hall Saturday turned into a "mob scene" of shouting protesters, just summed up this whole thing. CNN anchor Rick Sanchez asked Doggett why, if public opinion polls are split down the middle, we're only hearing from opponents.
I'll tell you, unless more Americans who are suffering under the insurance companies get out there and express their opinion, write their letter to the editor, call these talk shows -- if they don't get their message out the insurance companies will win in September and we just cannot let that happen.

"Many of them came, but they were drowned out on Saturday," he added.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 4:12:57 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

President Barack Obama
reply-to [email protected]
to John McCormack
date Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 6:19 PM
subject This is the moment


John --

This is the moment our movement was built for.

For one month, the fight for health insurance reform leaves the backrooms of Washington, D.C., and returns to communities across America. Throughout August, members of Congress are back home, where the hands they shake and the voices they hear will not belong to lobbyists, but to people like you.

Home is where we're strongest. We didn't win last year's election together at a committee hearing in D.C. We won it on the doorsteps and the phone lines, at the softball games and the town meetings, and in every part of this great country where people gather to talk about what matters most. And if you're willing to step up once again, that's exactly where we're going to win this historic campaign for the guaranteed, affordable health insurance that every American deserves.

There are those who profit from the status quo, or see this debate as a political game, and they will stop at nothing to block reform. They are filling the airwaves and the internet with outrageous falsehoods to scare people into opposing change. And some people, not surprisingly, are getting pretty nervous. So we've got to get out there, fight lies with truth, and set the record straight.

That's why Organizing for America is putting together thousands of events this month where you can reach out to neighbors, show your support, and make certain your members of Congress know that you're counting on them to act.

But these canvasses, town halls, and gatherings only make a difference if you turn up to knock on doors, share your views, and show your support. So here's what I need from you:

Can you sign up to attend an event near you?

In politics, there's a rule that says when you ask people to get involved, always tell them it'll be easy. Well, let's be honest here: Passing comprehensive health insurance reform will not be easy. Every President since Harry Truman has talked about it, and the most powerful and experienced lobbyists in Washington stand in the way.

But every day we don't act, Americans watch their premiums rise three times faster than wages, small businesses and families are pushed towards bankruptcy, and 14,000 people lose their coverage entirely. The cost of inaction is simply too much for the people of this nation to bear.

So yes, fixing this crisis will not be easy. Our opponents will attack us every day for daring to try. It will require time, and hard work, and there will be days when we don't know if we have anything more to give. But there comes a moment when we all have to choose between doing what's easy, and doing what's right.

This is one of those times. And moments like this are what this movement was built for. So, are you ready? Please RSVP for an event in your community to build support for health insurance reform:

http://my.barackobama.com/AugustAttend

Let's seize this moment and win this historic victory for our economy, our health and our families.

Thank you,

President Barack Obama

Donate

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark
Show me an E-mail from Obama that instructs anyone to do this????....Not even CREDO or Move On are encouraging such activity in the daily mails I receive....and I am on all of those as well as the DNC mailing lists.



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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 4:21:00 PM   
SilverMark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Several of the people in the videos claim to be registered Democrats who go to these meetings on their own accord. A lot of them are older too, and their rage seems very real.

You can hardly manufacture that kind of rage... and so far as the Democrats claiming its all astroturfed, that falls flat on my ears when I see Obama's emails calling for organized Democrat turnout at these events to shout down anyone who is trying to be heard who may be against his proposals.

HE seems to be the one who is guilty of astroturfing, at the very least AS guilty as anyone else is.


I see no mention to shouting down anyone....your reference seemed to say they were encouraging activity that the e-mail doesn't back up?Hell, I got that e-mail....I thought I had missed something....Pretty tame in comparison to the reference made. An appeal to involvement and asking for money...


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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 4:25:26 PM   
Sanity


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LOL!!!! Are you serious? Are you kidding me?

Your link to thinkprogress.org is shamefully lame and way beyond just weak...

You do realize don't you, that they're a far, far left organization, and that any information from that site should rightfully be considered to be absolutely 100% pure propaganda?

And your other link is absolutely no better.

Got anything from any mainstream sites? You know, a news site, or even something from a Conservative site that is supposedly pushing these protests?






< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/6/2009 4:37:10 PM >


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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 4:30:24 PM   
flcouple2009


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I've heard all kinds of crap from some of these protestors.  Funny thing, when you ask them to point out the part that actually says what they keep screaming it gets awfully quite.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 4:33:58 PM   
Sanity


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Its a blatent appeal for astroturfing the town hall meetings, Mark.

Can we be frank here?

I seriously doubt Obama intends for these grass roots volunteers of his to show up just to sit on their hands, and be quiet as field mice... after all, he just instructed his justice department to dismiss the federal charges that were pending against the Black Panthers who were videotaped physically blocking polling stations and intimidating voters in Philadelphia.

Think about the kind of message that he is actually sending.

And look at the irony. While his political machine slimes the old folks at these meetings, while he goes into full attack mode against average American citizens, he's using the exact same tactics that his fellow Democrats are accusing the people who show up at these meetings of using.

If you really, truly believe that Obama's pitching softball here, then you're mind is on a different  league than his is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark
I see no mention to shouting down anyone....your reference seemed to say they were encouraging activity that the e-mail doesn't back up?Hell, I got that e-mail....I thought I had missed something....Pretty tame in comparison to the reference made. An appeal to involvement and asking for money...








< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/6/2009 4:49:10 PM >


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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 4:38:37 PM   
Sanity


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These protests are going on all over the country... and those that I've seen (mostly news video) seemed sincere.


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

I've heard all kinds of crap from some of these protestors.  Funny thing, when you ask them to point out the part that actually says what they keep screaming it gets awfully quite.


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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 4:43:06 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Behold those scary, scary swastika-bearing astroturfers.



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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 4:58:10 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Behold those scary, scary swastika-bearing astroturfers.




You just need x-ray vision, firm. The swastikas are actually tattoos and hidden, like the dude that Daschle and Jay Rockefeller trotted out as an example of an "average American" in favor of the Clinton tax plan.... Rockefeller's "close personal friend". And the NBC reporter who saw it decided it wasnt important enough to divert attention from the Dem message.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 5:38:55 PM   
Sanity


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I saw nothing in your post that establishes that CPR has "taken credit" for anything that's happened at the town hall meetings. Organizations are buying advertisements, including the DNC and Unions, but that doesn't mean any of them are organizing any astroturfing of these events.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

To bring it back on track....


The CPR has taken credit for the uproars at Town Hall Meetings


< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/6/2009 5:39:41 PM >


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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 5:58:28 PM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I've been following some of this the last few days.

I'm not real happy about the apparent attempt to alienate politically disgruntled Americans who simply want the elected officials to actually ... well ... read the health care bill before they vote on it. Especially when one of the administrations campaign pledges was to put proposed legislation on the web, and require a waiting period before passage.

Or attempt to paint dissenters as "un-American", or to belittle and attempt to take away their humanity.

That's the road to serfdom and "re-education camps".

Firm


Kind of hard to read something that hasn't been written yet.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 6:03:15 PM   
KaineD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


There seems to be a very coordinated effort to paint everyone who disagrees with the the executive branch regarding the current health care debate with a very broad brush.

Apparently, a government funded disinformation campaign. A total smear, an attack against anyone who disagrees...

Will it succeed, do you think? Or will it backfire?



The claims that a bunch of these people are plants aren't unfounded.

There is evidence that two groups in particular are being put on buses and being driven around, townhall meeting to townhall meeting.  The people causing a scene at these townhall meetings aren't even the constituants of those towns.

People are being handed leaflets telling them how to behave at these townhalls - don't give the Democratic speakers a chance to even get a word in.  Stand up and yell, and sit back down immediately again so that you won't get in trouble for causing a disruption.

This is all on record.

That's not democracy at work, or the voice of dissent.  It's mob rule.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 6:46:32 PM   
servantforuse


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Steve Kagen represents the Green Bay area of Wisconsin. If Obamas plan is the way to go, where are the supporters of that plan.? The democrats won that district 4 years running. I think they might be out of gas.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 7:03:40 PM   
tazzygirl


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The Plum LineGreg Sargent's blog
Anti-Reform Group Takes Credit For Helping Gin Up Town Hall Rallies
Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, the operation that’s running a national campaign against a public health care option, is now publicly taking credit for helping gin up the sometimes-rowdy outbursts targeting House Dems at town hall meetings around the country, raising questions about their spontaneity.

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/anti-reform-group-takes-credit-for-helping-gin-up-town-hall-rallies/

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 7:14:57 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The Plum LineGreg Sargent's blog
Anti-Reform Group Takes Credit For Helping Gin Up Town Hall Rallies
Conservatives for Patients’ Rights, the operation that’s running a national campaign against a public health care option, is now publicly taking credit for helping gin up the sometimes-rowdy outbursts targeting House Dems at town hall meetings around the country, raising questions about their spontaneity.

http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/health-care/anti-reform-group-takes-credit-for-helping-gin-up-town-hall-rallies/



"“We have invested a lot of time, energy and resources into educating Americans over the past several months about the dangers of government-run health care and I think we’re seeing some of the fruits of that campaign,” Scott said, though he claimed outrage was spontaneous."

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 7:25:04 PM   
Sanity


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I read some of the comments on The Plum Line Greg Sargent's blog , 99% of which represented far left viewpoints, and predictably (as I mentioned in the OP) it it is clear that to the majority who are on the far left dissent is no longer the highest form of patriotism.

Now, if you're guilty of dissent, you're a "fascist"...



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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 7:36:03 PM   
servantforuse


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We'll see where the rubber meets the road when the August recess is over. If the democrats who have a solid majority want this plan they should vote for it and pass it. It will be in the back of their minds though that if they do so, they themselves might be voted out of office in 15 short months. They should pay close attention to these town hall meetings..

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 7:53:22 PM   
tazzygirl


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Scott is far from a paragon of virtue. Between the Columbia/HCA events, the National Century Financial Enterprises, neither of which he will be open and honest about according to his own web site, and his dogding of the question asked by a reporter on TV, is it any wonder no one believes him?

SUMMARY: The Wall Street Journal reported that Richard Scott, "the former chief executive of HCA Inc," had formed the non-profit organization Conservatives for Patients' Rights as part of a "lobbying campaign[] to derail or modify" President Obama's health care proposals, but failed to note that Scott resigned from HCA in 1997 amid a federal investigation into the company's Medicare billing, physician recruiting, and home-care practices. HCA eventually pleaded guilty to fraud charges and paid approximately $1.7 billion in fines and penalties.

2 Comments
On February 26, The Wall Street Journal reported that Richard Scott, "the former chief executive of HCA Inc," had formed the non-profit organization Conservatives for Patients' Rights as part of a "lobbying campaign[] to derail or modify" President Obama's health care proposals, and quoted Scott saying: "What you see is when the government gets involved, you run out of money and health care gets rationed." The Journal failed to note, however, that according to a July 26, 1997, Los Angeles Times article, Scott resigned "as chairman of Columbia/HCA Healthcare Corp. amid a massive federal investigation into the Medicare billing, physician recruiting and home-care practices of the nation's largest for-profit health care company." On December 15, 2000, Forbes reported that HCA -- The Heathcare Company, formerly Columbia/HCA Healthcare, "pleaded guilty to a variety of fraud charges. It admitted to bilking various government programs and agreed to pay a total of $840 million in fines and penalties." Forbes also reported that "Scott was forced to resign in the wake of the initial fraud charges in 1997."

In contrast to the Journal, the Politico noted on March 3 that "[p]ro-health reform activists also have begun circulating information in an effort to discredit Scott," citing the December 2000 Forbes article on Scott's resignation and HCA's subsequent plea. Politico further reported that HCA "eventually paid over $880 million to reach a settlement with the Justice Department in 2002 on the charges." According to a December 18, 2002, Justice Department press release, "When added to the prior civil and criminal settlements reached in 2000, this settlement would bring the government's total recoveries from HCA to approximately $1.7 billion."

From the February 26 Wall Street Journal article:

Industries from health care to agribusiness to mining that stand to lose under President Barack Obama's policy agenda are ramping up lobbying campaigns to derail or modify his plans.

The day after Mr. Obama formally laid out his policy goals in his first address to Congress, the former chief executive of HCA Inc. unveiled a $20 million campaign to pressure Democrats to enact health-care legislation based on free-market principles.

"What you see is when the government gets involved, you run out of money and health care gets rationed," former CEO Richard Scott said Wednesday, after announcing the creation of Conservatives for Patients Rights.

Mr. Obama's ambitious agenda -- ranging from expanding health-care coverage to cutting farm subsidies to cutting wasteful defense projects -- touches almost every part of the U.S. economy. It threatens to disrupt the business models of a broad swath of America's biggest companies.

From the July 26, 1997, Los Angeles Times article:

A controversial deal maker whose hard-nosed business tactics have reshaped the medical industry resigned Friday as scandal engulfed the vast hospital empire he had assembled over the last decade.

Richard Scott -- sometimes called "the Bill Gates of health care" -- quit as chairman of Columbia/HCA Healthcare Corp. amid a massive federal investigation into the Medicare billing, physician recruiting and home-care practices of the nation's largest for-profit health care company.

Though the federal probe focuses on other states, Columbia's aggressive expansion has included California, where the company operates 15 hospitals, 13 surgery centers and 10 home-health-care agencies, employing more than 11,000.

Scott and No. 2 executive David Vandewater, who also resigned, denied any wrongdoing. Company officials likewise denied that their departure was prompted by suspicions of wrongdoing and said Columbia is cooperating with federal investigators.

A Justice Department official would not comment on whether any Columbia executives, including Scott or Vandewater, are targets of the investigation.

From the December 15, 2000, Forbes article:

Yesterday, the nation's largest hospital chain, known until recently as Columbia/HCA Healthcare, pleaded guilty to a variety of fraud charges. It admitted to bilking various government programs and agreed to pay a total of $840 million in fines and penalties. The fraud settlement is the largest in U.S. history, breaking the old record held by Drexel Burnham. Even so, parts of the investigation into the company's practices remain unsettled.

The guilty plea follows a seven-year federal investigation that resulted in charges being filed in five different federal courts in Florida, Texas, Georgia and Tennessee, where HCA is headquartered. The fraud revealed by that investigation ran deep within HCA's way of doing business. Speaking at a news conference yesterday, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno said about the plea deal, "It's a simple message--if you overbill the U.S. taxpayer, we're going to make you pay it back, and then some."

The company admitted to systematically overcharging the government by claiming marketing costs as reimbursable, by striking illegal deals with home care agencies, and by filing false data about how hospital space was being used.

[...]

The investigation and the plea is an obvious blow to a company that became a Wall Street darling by promising to bring first-class business practices to the hospital sector, still dominated by not-for-profits. Under former Chief Executive Richard Scott, it bought hospitals by the bucketful and promised to squeeze blood from each one.

Scott was forced to resign in the wake of the initial fraud charges in 1997. Dr. Thomas Frist Jr., a founder of the original Hospital Corp. of America and the brother of U.S. Sen. Bill Frist, R-Tenn., was brought in to replace him as chairman and CEO.

From the March 3 Politico article:

Pro-health reform activists also have begun circulating information in an effort to discredit Scott, a move that underscores the huge stakes involved in the issue.

According to a 2000 article in Forbes, Scott was forced to resign as head of what became known as Columbia/HCA after fraud charges against the massive health care company in 1997. He was replaced by Thomas Frist Jr., the original founder of HCA and brother of future Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.)

The company eventually paid over $880 million to reach a settlement with the Justice Department in 2002 on the charges.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200903030027?lid=917864&rid=22503849

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 8:31:48 PM   
tazzygirl


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Protesters in Ybor City drown out health care summit on Obama's proposal

quote:

TAMPA — Bitter divisions over reforming America's health care system exploded Thursday night in Tampa amid cat calls, jeering and shoving at a town hall meeting.

"Tyranny! Tyranny! Tyranny!" dozens of people shouted as U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, struggled to talk about health insurance reforms under consideration in Washington, D.C.

"There is more consensus than there is disagreement when you get right down to it,'' Castor offered, immediately drowned out by groans and boos.

She pressed on, mostly unheard among screams from the audience estimated by Tampa police to be about 1,500.

"Tell the truth! Tell the truth!" "Read the bill!" "Forty-million illegals! Forty million illegals!"



Im sorry... we now have 40 million illegal aliens???


quote:

The spectacle at the Children's Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters. Similar scenes are likely to be repeated across the country as lawmakers head to their home districts for the summer recess.

Thursday's forum/near riot was sponsored by state Rep. Betty Reed, D-Tampa, and the Service Employees International Union, who apparently had hoped to hold something of a pep rally for President Barack Obama's health care reform proposal.

Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican Party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points.

An overflow crowd of critics was left waiting outside the building — and in some cases pounding on the meeting room doors — while health care reform activists complained that Democrats and union members were guided into the room for prime seats. Tampa police officers maintained control the entire night.

"They can't even run a meeting, and they want to run health care?'' scoffed Kevin Grant, a Tampa printing business owner, standing near someone wielding a "Shame on you America. You sold your soul to the Devil" sign.

The nationally televised images of protesters lashing out at politicians sympathetic to Obama's health care proposal certainly drive home the health care plans' keen opposition. Some Democrats, though, argue that engaged, disruptive protesters only serve to depict the GOP as unwilling to work on solutions.

"These groups are not concerned about Americans' access to quality heath care, but are extreme ideologues, only interested in 'breaking' the president and thwarting the change Americans voted for last November," said state Democratic chairwoman Karen Thurman.

Polls show mounting public concern about the nation's debt and deficit, and a CNN poll released this week found 50 percent of those surveyed support the president's plan and 45 percent oppose.

Castor said a strong debate is healthy but suggested that many of the protesters who have shown up at town hall meetings in recent weeks would have staunchly opposed the creation of Medicare and Social Security a few decades ago.

"The insurance industry and … Republican activists are manufacturing a lot of these phony protests,'' said Castor, who has been closely involved in the health care debate and said she won't support any bill lacking a government-run insurance option.

She left before the forum ended, which drew more boos. State Rep. Reed said she encouraged Castor to leave because nobody could hear her anyway.

Protesters said there was nothing phony about their strong showing, just a bubbling of grass roots anger.

"It's the backlash to the arrogance of our government that you're seeing here,'' said Brad Grabill of Temple Terrace.




sure sounds like they want to discuss.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/6/2009 11:29:12 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


LOL!!!! Are you serious? Are you kidding me?

Your link to thinkprogress.org is shamefully lame and way beyond just weak...

You do realize don't you, that they're a far, far left organization, and that any information from that site should rightfully be considered to be absolutely 100% pure propaganda?

And your other link is absolutely no better.

Got anything from any mainstream sites? You know, a news site, or even something from a Conservative site that is supposedly pushing these protests?




Apparently you missed the Seattle Times and Washington Post articles.

Or are those far, far left sources too?

And also, apparently you did not bother to read any of the links I gave or you would have seen the conservative sites pushing these protests.

But let me help you out so you don't have to go through all the hard work of scrolling up, I'll even excerpt some of it so you don't have to wear out your fingers clicking links:


 Action Memo Organize for Success



Organize for Success


Alert people in the district to watch for the first announcement of a Town Hall, there
may be as little as a week's notice. Have a central person advised so that the
alert can be distributed to as many potential supporters as possible.


The organizer should go to www.projectvotesmart.org and obtain the Rep's
voting record. It can be copied, pasted into Word, cleaned up, highlighted and
readied for distribution.



Questions should be prepared. Most pols are pros at deflecting off-the-cuff
questions. The questions should contain facts and numbers (which are
embarrassing and damning to the Rep and his voting record).

They can run up to five sentences or so - you will not be cut off at that length. The questions should
put the Rep on the defensive and demand a specific answer. Also, anticipate the
evasive, deflective answer and be prepared with a quick follow-up.

The questions should personalize the Rep why did YOU Yote for a budget that immediately
carried with it a $1.7 trillion deficit?

Use the Alinsky playbook of which the Left is so fond: freeze it, attack it, personalize it, and polarize it.


You only need to distribute five or six well constructed questions. There are some questions
attached here which apply to most any Democrat that is supporting the Socialist
agenda.




And that's only the opening paragraphs, it gets better from there:



Should you seek visibility for your group voicing opposition to the Rep's voting record and agenda you should schedule a press conference 20 minutes before the Town Hall is scheduled to begin.  Write and distribute a press release to local
newspapers and TV.


Meet and Deploy

The team should meet outside the hall with voting record and questions distributed.

Everyone should be asked to use one of the questions or a similar one that boxes in the Rep.


The team should also be advised to spread out inside thehall but should try to get seats in the front half.

The Rep wIll inevitably start picking people toward the front.



Inside the Hall



You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation,

Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early.

If he blames Bush for something or offers other excuses -- call him on it, yell back and have
someone else follow-up with a shout-out.





Yep, just average citizens turning out in spontaneous protests to voice their opinions.   

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/6/2009 11:34:40 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 40
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