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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 4:09:58 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

So now you're claiming that a comparison between the Obama administration and Hitler's death camps is a valid copmparison? Do you have no shame at all. Disgusting.

You're saying we have a "Disgusting" Speaker of the House, who compares opposition with Nazis?
PELOSI SEES SWASTIKAS

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 4:14:36 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The point of the thread was to ask for evidence that the initial dissenters were actually extremists as you claim, or if they were in fact true grass roots activists.

Are you of the opinion that we should have no right to speak up if we disagree with what the government does? Because that would require changes to the Constitution...

My opinion is this... they should join the discussion and ask their questions and demand answers...NOT shout down all speakers and totally disrupt the meeting where no one can speak.

How do they know what they are protesting until they hear what the opposition has to say. If every time someone tries to speak and they yell Heil Hitler and Seig Heil how is that protest? That is not allowing anyone to speak in his or her defense.

It is a shame when Rush is calling the shots for the Tea Party fanatics and disgracing the Old Party...

Sanity you know I have defended your views in the past but the actions of the Tea Party group at least here in Missouri is disgraceful...and NOT the democratic way of free protest.

Butch

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 4:15:24 PM

philosophy

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...i have to be honest Firm and say you're on a bit of limb here. Merc comparing Hitlers death camps and final solution to Obama's administration was clearly hyperbole. Not a useful or accurate comparison, and probably an example of Godwins law.
While Merc may have the germ of a point buried in there somewhere, to compare whats happening now to Dachau robs that point of credibility. After all, suppression of unlimited free speech is not a phenomenon that only applies to Democratic administrations....(Free Speech Zones, anyone? Patriot Act? You're either with us or against us?)
However, i am quite sure that if one were to suggest that the Republican Party were therefore Nazis they would attract the same sort of accusations from you that Domken is tossing around now.....and quite rightly so.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 4:41:59 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...i have to be honest Firm and say you're on a bit of limb here. Merc comparing Hitlers death camps and final solution to Obama's administration was clearly hyperbole. Not a useful or accurate comparison, and probably an example of Godwins law.
While Merc may have the germ of a point buried in there somewhere, to compare whats happening now to Dachau robs that point of credibility. After all, suppression of unlimited free speech is not a phenomenon that only applies to Democratic administrations....(Free Speech Zones, anyone? Patriot Act? You're either with us or against us?)

I'll provide some microscopic insight for you to clearly see the "germ".

The exact references you are giving for "Free Speech Zones" and the rest are being employed by this Administration. They are attempting to go further, seeking to identify specific groups and individuals they believe are dangerous to their attempts at fascist socialism. It does not amaze me that instead of providing a counter argument, or even disagreement, to those points, instead the focus is on the color coded triangle reference. The comparison was not to the camps but to the first activity - identifying the regime's "enemies" and having them so identified by the color codes. A 'Nixonian' enemies list; yet lets focus on the triangle reference and not the direct order from the White House. Providing a clear idea of how difficult it is to defend the White House action.

If you want to compare it to Bush's Patriot Act, be sure to distinguish it in the context of 9/11 versus the context of trying to pass a Pork ridden, 1000 un-read page health care program. There is no smoldering hole where a building used to be as a cause - this is strictly agenda based.

Besides, the Speaker of the House, many Democrats are citing Nazi references;

quote:

Baird said he's using the new system because he fears his political opponents may be planning "an ambush" to disrupt his meetings, using methods Baird compared to Nazism.

BAIRD SEES NAZIS!

When the White House posts a blog, as they did on Tuesday that asked supporters to e-mail any "fishy" information seen on the Web or received electronically to [email protected]; it it they who legitimize the Nazi comparison. No other source, but that right wing organization the ACLU, (sarcasm in case you missed it) called the move "a bad idea that could send a troublesome message." Of course they are not collecting names, or requiring color coded triangles be worn...yet.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/7/2009 4:47:56 PM >

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 4:45:54 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

When the White House posts a blog, as they did on Tuesday that asked supporters to e-mail any "fishy" information seen on the Web or received electronically to [email protected]; it it they who legitimize the Nazi comparison. No other source, but that right wing organization the ACLU, (sarcasm in case you missed it) called the move "a bad idea that could send a troublesome message." Of course they are not collecting names, or requiring color coded triangles be worn...yet.

And given Clinton's use of the IRS to hound his enemies, "yet" may not be far away.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 5:40:46 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Of course they are not collecting names, or requiring color coded triangles be worn...yet.

...or shipping people off in cattle trucks or tossing rocks through the windows of peoples houses or practising eugenics or invading neighbouring countries or murdering vast amounts of people because they're the wrong religion or killing every tenth male in a village or bombing major cities or burning books or stealing the cultural heritage of other countries or sparking off a world war or sinking civilian shipping or forcing entire cultural groups to emigrate on pain of death or confiscating all their worldy goods...........they're collecting names.

Now, i don't like it and think its wrong.....but it sure as hell doesn't make them Nazis. What you engaged in was hyperbole and a clear example of Godwins Law. Other US administrations have collected names.....and been a lot more nasty to people than what is being proposed. McCarthyism for instance. Was he a Nazi?

quote:

If you want to compare it to Bush's Patriot Act, be sure to distinguish it in the context of 9/11 versus the context of trying to pass a Pork ridden, 1000 un-read page health care program. There is no smoldering hole where a building used to be as a cause - this is strictly agenda based.

....ah, so you admit that the Patriot Act was used by Bush to do exactly the same thing but apparently you forgive because context is everything. Lack of health care will kill people, slowly and painfully, just as surely as flying a plane into the building where they are. In fact, in the US context, it will kill a hell of a lot more people and has done over the preceding years.

Context is, indeed, everything.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 7:40:49 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Sadly, its not all one sided. Both are equally at fault. too bad no one else here wants to see or admit that.

I respectfully disagree.

I do think one side of the debate here is more responsible than the other. It just serves them well to say "everyone is to blame".

As individuals, within both sides of any debate, there is a wide variance, so either side can point to individuals on the other that are particular egregious examples.

However, I believe (and have argued before) that the lefties aren't interested in any kind of fair and open debate. Their prophet Alinsky teaches them how they should act - and they've been following his prescriptions for quite a while.

The problem for them is, what happens when the right wakes up, gets tired of their BS, and decides to fight them on their own terms?

They are stewing in their own hatred and rage. And, as I said before: when they are challenged, they attack. This is what I believe we are seeing with the "report on your friends" comments from the Administration, and the attempts by the DNC to say that all the opposition is "astro-turfing".

If the definition of "astro-turfing" is the ginning up of fake popular opposition to some political question, then none of these events are "astro-turfing", because the fact is that there is a growing, real, popular dis-satisfaction with what is going on.

If some Republican, conservative, or otherwise organized groups simply give guidance on how people can and should express their outrage - that is just smart politics. It is NOT "manufactured angry", it is NOT busing in paid stranger from out of town to attend rallies and meetings, it is NOT getting union thugs to setup your meeting and have the agenda so that only your side of the issue is given any serious consideration.

In short, it's NOT astro-turfing.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 8/7/2009 7:49:18 PM >

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 7:54:52 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I do think one side of the debate here is more responsible than the other. It just serves them well to say "everyone is to blame".

As individuals, within both sides of any debate, there is a wide variance, so either side can point to individuals on the other that are particular egregious examples.

..oh come on Firm. This makes little sense. The second paragraph of yours that i have quoted i think we can all agree on. however you flat out contradict it with the previous one.

Individuals are doing the arguing, there are left wing idiots and right wing idiots. There are all sorts of non-standard idiots too. However to suggest that left wingers are ideologically contrained to dishonourable debate while right wingers are ideologically pure as the driven snow is utter tosh.

McCarthy.........not exactly an honourable man. Didn't just ask people to rat on their friends, but actually threatened people with the loss of their livelihoods unless they did as he told them. So was he a Democrat or a Republican? i don't think that either left or right wingers are driven to be honourable or dishonourable........i think one can hold pretty much any view on politics and hold it honourably. This dimension of human behavior is about people, not ideology.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 7:56:54 PM

tazzygirl

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The manufactoring is the ads and lies proven after the ads have run. thats the sad part. stirring up emotions based upon lies... from either side. Can i say this bill is the best one to provide what is needed? nope. its not completed yet. neither side can say anything until the final bill is presented for a vote.

Its still not finished.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:00:28 PM

Sanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
My opinion is this... they should join the discussion and ask their questions and demand answers...NOT shout down all speakers and totally disrupt the meeting where no one can speak.

How do they know what they are protesting until they hear what the opposition has to say. If every time someone tries to speak and they yell Heil Hitler and Seig Heil how is that protest? That is not allowing anyone to speak in his or her defense.

You seem to be allowing shrill figures like Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi to frame the debate for you in terms that aren't realistic.

In the initial Youtube videos that came out regarding these town hall meetings, the attendees were not disruptive until their Congressman or Senator or the person speaking said something such as, we have to do this fast, or told a blatant, obvious lie such as our health care plan will create budget surpluses (the White House and the Congressional Budget Office both project that the plans being considered will add between one and two trillion dollars to the deficit ten years out).

Another showed AARP representatives treating their audience as if they were little children...

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
It is a shame when Rush is calling the shots for the Tea Party fanatics and disgracing the Old Party...

Why are you referencing Rush? Who has led you to believe that he is leading these protests, because I'm sure you don't listen to him - do you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Sanity you know I have defended your views in the past but the actions of the Tea Party group at least here in Missouri is disgraceful...and NOT the democratic way of free protest.

Butch

It sounds like a lot of people have jumped on the populist bandwagon, both left and right - and I believe that the Tea Party people are a mixture of both, with a lot of Libertarians thrown in for good measure. But these Johnny-come-latelys are a recent development, and not what I was referencing when I began this thread, so please don't further accuse me of supporting everything that makes the news regarding the town hall gatherings as we debate them.

One thing that troubles me about your posts is that I'm sure you've heard how the White House is directing Democrats to "punch back twice as hard" and how the president said he ‘Don’t Want the Folks Who Created the Mess to Do a Lot of Talking - essentially saying that anyone who isn't in perfect lockstep with whatever the government intends to do with their lives needs to STFU. With that kind of an attitude coming from our government how can you realistically ask or expect the debate to become more civil?

Sorry, but I don't understand that sentiment - not at all. And I don't believe that the debate should become more civil until our government understands that we have a voice and we have every right to debate and even to become angry and protest as much as we have to, until our voices are heard.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/7/2009 8:14:35 PM >

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:08:24 PM

tazzygirl

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No one ever hears angry voices... certainly not politically. Anger solves nothing. I agree discussions need to happen... shoutinng matches will never be heard.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:15:23 PM

Sanity

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Without passion, are you really alive?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No one ever hears angry voices... certainly not politically. Anger solves nothing. I agree discussions need to happen... shoutinng matches will never be heard.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:19:04 PM

tazzygirl

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When people are getting physically hurt because of lies being told... its time passions were cooled. Can you really advocate people getting hurt?

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:19:54 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Without passion, are you really alive?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No one ever hears angry voices... certainly not politically. Anger solves nothing. I agree discussions need to happen... shoutinng matches will never be heard.

...anger isn't the same as passion. Not by a long shot. Anger, in some ways, is almost the opposite. Passion is an affirmative thing.....one could call it a great love. Anger is a destructive thing.....a desire to destroy an opposition. Not the same thing at all. Unless what one really, really loves is destruction......and there's a bunch of words for people like that.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:23:56 PM

Sanity

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Why don't you write to Obama, and tell him that. While you're at it, tell him to call off his goons, and to begin putting the truth on the table, and to quit telling the people lies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

When people are getting physically hurt because of lies being told... its time passions were cooled. Can you really advocate people getting hurt?

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:27:30 PM

Sanity

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It would be a very foolish man who was never stirred to anger. And you are wrong about passion, and anger. They can indeed be one and the same.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:29:32 PM

tazzygirl

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I really feel sorry for you Sanity.

I showed you the lies posted about the health care bill and how they were found to BE lies. Most perpetuated by those who heavuly endorse the Republican party. the town hall meetings have turned into shouting matches

and all you can see are political lines with Obama being at fault. He must hold alot of power with you. I dont like that he isnt more upcoming with information. But those yelling at the meetings are yelling about lies they have been told.

40 million illegal aliens
Euthanasia
Abortion over Senior Care

and those are just a few.

Who initiated these lies? I agree, find Obama in a lie.. any lie.. take it to him... and when others lie.. take it to them. when they are discovered to be lies, then seek the truth.

Problem here is... no one wants to hear the truth. The political machine is just churning away without any concerns for the people they are supposed to represent. all they want it to win.

and the losers are?

US!

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/7/2009 8:38:37 PM >

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:30:18 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

It would be a very foolish man who was never stirred to anger. And you are wrong about passion, and anger. They can indeed be one and the same.

...well, i know no-one who doesn't feel angry from time to time. Acting on it is almost always a mistake though, whoever gets angry first usually loses the fight.
However passion and anger can be the same, if ones passion is destruction. i've met a few people like that over the years. Most ended up in prison.

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:38:57 PM

Sanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I really feel sorry for you Sanity.

Are you finished with your thinly, almost invisibly veiled attempts at insults? Because you're sounding very angry.

Okay, you've added the following, and so now I have to come back and edit my post in order to respond to it...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I showed you the lies posted about the health care bill and how they were found to BE lies. Most perpetuated by those who heavuly endorse the Republican party. the town hall meetings have turned into shouting matches

I already addressed your claims about what the town hall meetings "have turned in to", but I'll repeat myself here, I guess. When I began this thread the "Tea Party" people weren't involved that I know of, the president hadn't directed his people to hit back "twice as hard", and they were mostly older folks who were so forcefully speaking up at the formerly very quiet town hall events.

The lies you were claiming had nothing to do with the thread, as I wrote in response to your very lengthy cut-and-pastes earlier on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
and all you can see are political lines with Obama being at fault. He must hold alot of power with you. I dont like that he isnt more upcoming with information. But those yelling at the meetings are yelling about lies they have been told.

40 million illegal aliens
Euthanasia
Abortion over Senior Care

and those are just a few.

Who initiated these lies? I agree, find Obama in a lie.. any lie.. take it to him... and when others lie.. take it to them. when they are discovered to be lies, then seek the truth.

Problem here is... no one wants to hear the truth. The political machine is just churning away without any concerns for the people they are supposed to represent. all they want it to win.

and the losers are?

US!

It seems like you're trying to lay it all on me for starting this thread...

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/7/2009 9:30:55 PM >

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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:40:48 PM

tazzygirl

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Im not angry. nor am i insulting. i do feel sorry for anyone who is that wrapped up into politics that they cannot see beyond a political line to the truth...

... and thats what the political machines are banking on.

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