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RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 8:41:04 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Anger is a natural reaction when you find that your friends and family are being swindled and lied to.

It's perfectly normal, and there's nothing to be ashamed of.

If you have friends who can't handle life's problems, that's too bad. It must suck to be them. When people here in the U.S. are found guilty of having committed a crime of passion, usually they get a break from the criminal justice system.

I imagine it's the same up in Canada, isn't it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...well, i know no-one who doesn't feel angry from time to time. Acting on it is almost always a mistake though, whoever gets angry first usually loses the fight.
However passion and anger can be the same, if ones passion is destruction. i've met a few people like that over the years. Most ended up in prison.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/7/2009 9:07:43 PM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Post #: 101

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 9:10:52 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Anger is a natural reaction when you find that your friends and family are being swindled and lied to.

Okay: I want barricades. I want bricks flying. I want a revolution, because otherwise it means that you don't mean what you're saying.

_____________________________

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 102

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 9:16:26 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I really feel sorry for you Sanity.

I showed you the lies posted about the health care bill and how they were found to BE lies. Most perpetuated by those who heavuly endorse the Republican party. the town hall meetings have turned into shouting matches

and all you can see are political lines with Obama being at fault. He must hold alot of power with you. I dont like that he isnt more upcoming with information. But those yelling at the meetings are yelling about lies they have been told.

40 million illegal aliens
Euthanasia
Abortion over Senior Care

and those are just a few.

Who initiated these lies? I agree, find Obama in a lie.. any lie.. take it to him... and when others lie.. take it to them. when they are discovered to be lies, then seek the truth.

Problem here is... no one wants to hear the truth. The political machine is just churning away without any concerns for the people they are supposed to represent. all they want it to win.

and the losers are?

US!

I guess my question is: How do you know none of these things aren't in the purposed law? Which elected official has claimed to read any of the (3?) bills?

Are the bills still being amended? Are they out of committee?

Why the rush to vote on something that still isn't complete?

Firm

edited to add:

I think the entire intent of the Democrats and the Obama Administration is to withhold information. That seems to be the reason for the rush to vote without reading, or even having discussions on the subject.

I think that this angers many people (and rightfully so). "We the people" are suppose to be the bosses here, not the peons. Rumors and less than accurate information are the natural consequence of an information vacuum. This is Leadership 101.

The feeling that I, and many others, get is that we aren't really worth the effort to inform, and to bring into the debate and discussion.

We should just shut up, sit down, and let our betters handle things.

Well, I"m sorry, but a basic concept of this country, and this government is that the people know better.

If the Democrats and the current Administration believe that they can simply ignore and treat us like mushrooms ... I think anger from the citizens is exactly the correct emotion, and their actions are the exactly correct actions. And yes, if that leads to rebellion, then so be it.

Who was it that said something about freedom and the blood of patriots?

Who was it that said something about when a government becomes intolerable, then revolution is the natural right of the people?

The left is only seeing the beginnings of the whirlwind that they are unleashing, if they don't change their ways.

Do I advocate revolution? No.

Do I want revolution? No.

I am simply stating my opinion on the subject of the current political situation, and where I can see it going.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 8/7/2009 9:55:19 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Post #: 103

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 9:19:40 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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I'm giving you facts...I don't care about any other politicians or circumstance... I am telling you what happened here. Now if I am telling you the truth do you still think the actions of the Tea Party were proper?

If you do agree these actions were proper then you believe it is ok to yell down others denying them their rights to free speech.

You are saying it is ok to physically stop people from attending town hall meetings with an agenda they don't agree.

You are saying violence is acceptable when you don't agree with a viewpoint.

Is that you Sanity?...I think not.

It is possible for wrong on both sides...and it is possible for fanatics on both sides.

Normal people in both parties want dialog to solve differences...don't hang your hat on radicals.

Butch

ps... I brought Rush in to this discussion because of the Tea Party yelling Nazi slogans to shout down people in the town hall meeting... I guess you are going to say that was not instigated by Limbaugh?

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/7/2009 9:28:21 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 104

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 9:31:22 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

sorry double post

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/7/2009 9:32:15 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 105

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 9:32:05 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I do think one side of the debate here is more responsible than the other. It just serves them well to say "everyone is to blame".

As individuals, within both sides of any debate, there is a wide variance, so either side can point to individuals on the other that are particular egregious examples.

..oh come on Firm. This makes little sense. The second paragraph of yours that i have quoted i think we can all agree on. however you flat out contradict it with the previous one.

Individuals are doing the arguing, there are left wing idiots and right wing idiots. There are all sorts of non-standard idiots too. However to suggest that left wingers are ideologically contrained to dishonourable debate while right wingers are ideologically pure as the driven snow is utter tosh.

Most of the political thought on the left condones and preaches duplicity and techniques to discredit their rhetorical opponents (notice I didn't say Democrats).

If you have researched much of the philosophies of political activism from sources on the two sides, the main strain on the right is to use reason. William Buckley is a good example. The main strain on the left is to discredit your opponent. Alinsky is the perfect example.

Every individual, on both sides? No. But even a cursory search will show that the most disruptive techniques, the most likely to preach demonization - you have to look to the left.

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

McCarthy.........not exactly an honourable man. Didn't just ask people to rat on their friends, but actually threatened people with the loss of their livelihoods unless they did as he told them. So was he a Democrat or a Republican? i don't think that either left or right wingers are driven to be honourable or dishonourable........i think one can hold pretty much any view on politics and hold it honourably. This dimension of human behavior is about people, not ideology.

McCarthy? Darn ... why not use Ghengis Khan?

As Obama would say ... I wasn't even 5 years old at the time.

In fact, anyone under 60 wasn't even born when McCarthy was on the political stage.

I don't think that it is "left" versus "right" in the dishonor field. I do think that the strain of leftism that has come to fore over the past few decades has been tainted with dishonorable concepts, techniques and tactics.

I'd recommend that you and other honorable members of the liberal left take back your movement. Because (at least in the US), I truly believe that it is destroying you.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 8/7/2009 9:33:58 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 106

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 9:33:08 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

kitten, Have I told you lately that I love you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Anger is a natural reaction when you find that your friends and family are being swindled and lied to.

Okay: I want barricades. I want bricks flying. I want a revolution, because otherwise it means that you don't mean what you're saying.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 107

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 9:38:07 PM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

I believe in peaceful meetings for the most part, sure. But when politicians start telling lies and feeding their constituents bullshit, and then when their audiences spot the lies and bullshit and react the way that these initial audiences did - that's terrific, good to see, and bloody good for those people.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 108

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 10:05:30 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm giving you facts...I don't care about any other politicians or circumstance... I am telling you what happened here. Now if I am telling you the truth do you still think the actions of the Tea Party were proper?

If you do agree these actions were proper then you believe it is ok to yell down others denying them their rights to free speech.

I disagree with your basic assumptions.

There was little or no "free speech" available to the people who caused disruptions to these so-called "town halls".

The "town halls" were shams. They were nothing more than politicians who sought political cover, to be able to say "We had town halls on the subject!" "We talked to the people!".

Not true. They had an agenda: sell the bill, minimize political fallout, fool the peons.

They held the mic. They set the agenda. They attempted to stack the deck.

If they were really interested in hearing the people, they could easily step down off that podium, open their hearts, move down to the people and listen for a change.

Listen to the people and the voters. Damn, What a frigging unique concept.

But, no. They had their ears uncovered, but their minds where made up, and they were not listening.

And the people knew this. They know it's a done deal already, and they feel betrayed.

The citizens denied them free speech? huh. Not hardly.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 8/7/2009 10:52:40 PM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 109

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 10:08:42 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

PS ... Do you know how hard it is to get a politician with a microphone to shut the hell up, even for a few minutes?

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 110

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 10:13:38 PM

LookieNoNookie

Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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"Real Astroturf" (which of course is fake grass) vs. "The Fake Stuff" (which as many would assume....is also fake grass)....

(Did I miss something?).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 8/7/2009 10:14:35 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 111

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/7/2009 10:42:18 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Yeah Lookie,you missed something alright...a whole lot of posturing...a shitload of assertions wherein pure patriotism was found to come from only one end of the political spectrum...while the other end was found to be populated with the worst scum America has ever produced.
Just another fair and balanced discourse on the political shenanigans in the gool old U.S.of A.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 112

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/8/2009 12:10:49 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

FR:

Here is the example of what happens when a politician listens:

Concerned about health care, hundreds swarm Polis chat
Hundreds of people wait to speak to congressman at Vic's Coffee
By Laura Snider (Contact)
Friday, August 7, 2009

Extract:

BOULDER, Colo. — U.S. Rep. Jared Polis, D-Boulder, was swarmed by people Friday morning when he dropped by the Vic’s coffee shop in north Boulder, expecting a friendly chat with a couple dozen constituents.

But the event, the first of a series of meetings dubbed “Congress on Your Corner,” drew hundreds of people, many with health care issues on their minds.

“The idea is that it’s so hard to get your average constituent to make it out to a public meeting, that the congressman goes out to where the people are,” said Lara Cottingham, Polis’ press secretary. “Usually it’s 12, maybe 30 people who show up.”

“Obviously,” continued Cottingham, turning to look at the crowd spilling into the parking lot, “all bets are off today.”

Polis spent nearly two hours dug in behind a table set up on the sidewalk outside the popular morning coffee shop, and a crowd of people jostled around him, waiting to ask a question and straining — hands cupped to their ears — to hear his answers.

...

Cottingham said that the event wasn’t meant to be a town-hall style meeting; it was designed, instead, to allow people to speak to Polis one-on-one. And, she said, anyone who filled out a card — and who didn’t get a turn to speak — will get a personal phone call from the congressman in the coming days.

“This is what democracy is all about,” Polis said as he left, already late for his next appointment. “I did a lot of listening, a little bit of talking, and it's great to see this kind of engagement.”

So, let us review:

A Democratic Representative is tracked down by a bunch of concerned citizens, who are worried and wanting to talk.

Instead of sandbagging them, and telling them what to think, what does he do?

He sits down and listens. For hours. He misses his appointments.

And the event is orderly, with no shout downs, no pushing and fighting.

Whether he wanted to or not, whether he planned to or not, he did the right thing, and showed respect for his citizens. And listened.

Compare his actions against the places and politicians that seem to get out of control meetings.

He treated them with respect. He got respect.

I suspect he will get re-elected, if he follows his instincts, regardless of the outcome of the voting on the final bill.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 113

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/8/2009 12:32:57 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

Now, let's talk about how not to do it:

DEMS SNEAK UNION THUGS INTO CARNAHAN TOWN HALL-- Tea Party Taxpayers Locked Out! (video captured at the event described below).

The guy who took the video explains:

SEIU Thugs Teach Health Care Protesters the "Chicago Way" of Politics
A first-person account from the Russ Carnahan town hall meeting where union goons went looking for heads to bust — and found one.
August 7, 2009 - by Jim Hoft

Extracts:

This is my first-person account of what I saw at the the town hall meeting in Mehlville.

...

I was running late for the Carnahan meeting last night. The doors opened at 6:00 PM and it was around 6:20 when I arrived at Bernard Middle School in St. Louis county. The parking lot was already full. The streets next to the school were also filled up. I ended up walking about three blocks to reach the school. By the time I arrived, the line outside of the school was about 200 yards long. The line wrapped around the front of the building and halfway down the school’s driveway. I was told they had already stopped letting people inside the building. The people up front were told that they could not let anyone else in because of a fire code.

...

My friend thought it was a media entrance. It wasn’t. It was marked “handicapped,” but as I approached the side entrance, it was obvious that these were not handicapped individuals who the Carnahan staffers were letting in.

Several people entered through these doors. I pulled out my camera and filmed the action. Right before I made it to the door the staffers let a man walk right in. Two SEIU members in purple shirts walked up to the door and did not even hesitate to enter the school. It was like they knew right where to go. But by this time the crowd of tea party protesters locked outside started to notice what was going on. They began yelling, and one man stepped in front of the SEIU members and asked that he be let in, too.

...

There must have been 1,000 tea party protesters standing outside in the 90 degree heat and they were agitated. There were now a few SEIU members outside, and they started to taunt the crowd. Not a very smart move, but they didn’t seem to care. A former marine with his young son on his shoulders told the crowd not to react to the taunting. The crowd outside started to sing “God Bless America.” This really seemed to ease the tension that was beginning to build outside the school.

Inside the school the chaos continued. The Carnahan people had roped off the gymnasium into two sides. One side was marked reserved. This was for the union supporters who arrived late for the event. The other side quickly filled up with tea party protesters. A couple of tea party taxpayers sat in the reserved section but moved after the union members arrived. They said they didn’t feel safe.

...

After Carnahan was through speaking he said he was going to take a few questions. His staffers then pulled out a few questions and read them to him from their index cards. They said they had collected the cards beforehand, but the tea party taxpayers did not even know they were only taking questions that were written down. It was a total dog and pony show.

After the event, things got really out of control. The SEIU members were looking for trouble. They roamed the parking lot like a pack of thugs. Conservative Kenneth Gladney, who is black, was passing out “Don’t Tread on Me” flags and tea party buttons to the taxpayers at the school. Unfortunately for Kenneth, the SEIU members were not happy that a black man was passing out tea party buttons. Kenneth’s lawyer described what happened next:

quote:

The SEIU member used a racial slur against Kenneth, then punched him in the face. Kenneth fell to the ground. Another SEIU member yelled racial epithets at Kenneth as he kicked him in the head and back. Kenneth was also brutally attacked by one other male SEIU member and an unidentified woman. The three men were clearly SEIU members, as they were wearing T-shirts with the SEIU logo.

***

Dog and pony show, a sham "town hall meeting", a setup, a stacked deck.

Treating the concerned citizens like peons, the great unwashed mass that "doesn't know what's good for them".

Lock them out. Let in your thuggish supporters.

No respect. Contempt.

Fighting breaks out, shouting ... hell yes, I think the Tea party members, and the real citizens have the right to "shut it down", and yell whatever the hell they wish.

Because there is nothing but bullshit coming out of this Democratic politician, and his cronies.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 114

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/8/2009 12:50:20 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

And here, the next day, at a Carahan's "unannounced" press conference (some called it a secret press conference, but apparently not too secret to keep out one unsympathetic reporter) about the event:

Jamie Allman Presses Rep. Russ Carnahan

Listen at about 2:10 where he blames the Republicans, and says it's all their "political agenda" (like it's illegal or immoral for Republicans to have a political agenda, but it's just fine for Obama and the Democrats to have one).

He talks about how all he wanted was a "debate". Bullshit. He did everything he could to prevent a debate.

Hell, he even said he "wasn't sure" that the union thugs were there to support him (when they had half the seating reserved for them in the room). More bullshit.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 115

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/8/2009 4:39:41 AM

Louve00

Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

"Real Astroturf" (which of course is fake grass) vs. "The Fake Stuff" (which as many would assume....is also fake grass)....

(Did I miss something?).

LOL...thats what initially attracted me to this thread. As usual for the politics and religion section of the forums though, you get a whole other education, and perspective. While I do like reading everyone's perspectives, I seldom join in. Its one thing to realize your ability to change your views, its a whole other to realize your inability to change others.

And so, the debate goes on...........

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 116

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/8/2009 6:23:01 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I believe in peaceful meetings for the most part, sure. But when politicians start telling lies and feeding their constituents bullshit, and then when their audiences spot the lies and bullshit and react the way that these initial audiences did - that's terrific, good to see, and bloody good for those people.

They did not allow anyone to speak at all.... so how do you know they are saying lies...shouting down people is not protest...it is denying free speech.

Maybe I would have liked to hear both sides and make up my own mind…I sure would not want to hear someone screaming Heil Hitler over and over again every time someone tried to speak.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 117

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/8/2009 6:34:25 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Firm

The way this country works... the people elect representatives to govern... this was an elected servant responding to his constituents requests for information on a bill he would be voting on.

This meeting was open to all… not just Democrats… the information was to be given then questions taken and answered.

All were welcome… then these fanatics entered and refused to allow anyone to speak.

So this is Democracy at work in your eyes?

Denying me my right to information because you don’t agree with it is criminal in my eyes.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 118

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/8/2009 7:54:30 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 119

RE: Real Astroturf vs. The Fake Stuff - 8/8/2009 8:07:29 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Firm

The way this country works... the people elect representatives to govern... this was an elected servant responding to his constituents requests for information on a bill he would be voting on.

This meeting was open to all… not just Democrats… the information was to be given then questions taken and answered.

All were welcome… then these fanatics entered and refused to allow anyone to speak.

So this is Democracy at work in your eyes?

Denying me my right to information because you don’t agree with it is criminal in my eyes.

Butch

Butch,

You are going to have to back up your assertions, because from what I've seen, none of what you say is true about the event.

To me, it looks like there was a large group of citizens who wanted to attend, and stood for quite a while outside the event in peaceful assembly: Part 1 (3.24 min video)

I see that some people were sneaking in a back (handicapped, apparently) entrance, and got found out. The people sneaking in appear to be Health bill supporters, and members of the SIEU union, while the people denied entrance were the citizens. In fact, the "gate keepers" were wearing shirts that identified themselves as supporters of the health bill, and union members. They either took it upon themselves, or were given the responsibility for "crowd control" at the door.

One union member, in particular (a black guy) gets into the faces of the people at the door. Part 2 (7.44 video)

Notice several things in this video:

1. The citizen with the small boy on the top is trying to calm things down (I guess he's part of the "angry mob"?).

2. As was stated in my earlier post, by a man who was there: the pro-bill union - supporters of Caranhan - are working for him. And, in fact, they came out and escalated the entire situation.

You have no proof that any of the citizens who did make it into the meeting "denied" Carahan or anyone else their right to speak. Other than a video of Carahan being laughed at one time when he was at the podium, and claiming that the bill would be "revenue neutral", and in fact result in a surplus did the crowd react in anything other than a proper manner. Heckled (1.04 video).

In fact, I've seen nothing that says the meeting was anything other than run - inside - exactly like Carahan and his union cronies wanted to run it. Any open questions from the attendees? Apparently not. The writer I quoted before said that all "questions" were taken earlier, and put on 3x5 cards earlier, and Carahan answered them.

Where was Carahan denied "free speech"?

Then, look at what the union thugs did afterwards: Fight (3.15 video).

It's dark, after the meeting, and the same union thugs are outside apparently "cruisin' for a bruisin' ". How did that stop Carahan and his cronies from exercising their "free speech"?

It didn't.

Your entire "they were denied free speech by an out of control mob" is false.

Perhaps you read something I haven't seen. Perhaps you have videos that support your accusations. I'm open to the idea.

But unless and until you produce something that supports you position, I can't really give you position much credence.

Firm

PS. And yes, I do see some fanatics. But they seem to be working for Carnahan.

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 8/8/2009 8:10:56 AM >

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Post #: 120

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