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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:48:03 PM

VanIsleKnight

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So Loki seems to think that just because something is going poorly (border control, drug control, gun control) that you should just quit trying altogether and that it is every man for himself. Sounds like an anarchist in my opinion.

Now, an option that would be beneficial.

Legislation that requires membership in a militia in order to own guns, and admittance to any militia requiring gun safety courses, marksmanship, and other stuff that makes sense for someone in a militia to know, and doesn't make it impossible to own guns, merely more difficult and serving the actual purpose of the second amendment. Sort of like the reserves, but without the "ownership" or the commitment, so that if the government ever does try to pull a dictatorship, intent of constitution is served.

At the very least, more strict application processes that -require- an owner to be extensively educated on how to not be irresponsible.

< Message edited by VanIsleKnight -- 8/11/2009 5:02:12 PM >

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Post #: 101

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:52:46 PM

Starbuck09

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Well what Van Isle is saying sounds good Loki how about something like that?

(in reply to VanIsleKnight)

Post #: 102

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:57:29 PM

aphotic

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Joined: 5/17/2009
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Remember the first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton? He was killed in a gun duel by Aaron Burr.

Let me repeat that: a prominent member of the US hierarchy once died in a perfectly legal GUN DUEL.

Things change, and sometimes for the better of mankind. I'm sure that 200 years ago, this didn't seem like an outlandish statement; all that dieing in a gun duel business.

Hey, the Republicans are still shooting people (see Cheney, Dick), but it just doesn't make as much sense today. Guns aren't really necessary anymore with the substantial contributions of law enforcement. There is no lawless "Wild West" anymore, or "Injuns" to battle.

Get over yourself about owning a handgun. Hunting arms? I guess because men need to be barbaric from time to time, with their insouciant traditions and all. However, you can stick any arguement about protecting yourself somewhere that the sun doesn't shine.

The correlation about household guns, and the people within that household getting hurt by THOSE guns, is ridiculous. Completely absurd that we allow it.

"Hey, what if invaders came into the US and we were helpless?"

You mean helpless as in without the military? The one which we love to pin ribbons on (Pabst Blue Ribbon [every redneck has a brother, cousin, or father worthy of pouring one out for] )? Anyways, wars aren't even fought with guns anymore. They are decided with technology and weapons of mass destruction (resisting the urge to make another joke).

(in reply to Loki45)

Post #: 103

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:10:17 PM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight

So Loki seems to think that just because something is going poorly (border control, drug control, gun control) that you should just quit trying altogether and that it is every man for himself. Sounds like an anarchist in my opinion.

Now, an option that would be beneficial.

Legislation that requires membership in a militia in order to own guns, and admittance to any militia requiring gun safety courses, marksmanship, and other stuff that makes sense for someone in a militia to know, and doesn't make it impossible to own guns, merely more difficult and serving the actual purpose of the second amendment. Sort of like the reserves, but without the "ownership" or the commitment, so that if the government ever does try to pull a dictatorship, intent of constitution is served.

At the very least, more strict application processes that -require- an owner to be extensively educated on how to not be irresponsible.

Part of the problem with that is the terminology used there. "Militia" has a pretty harsh and negative connotation here in the states.

However, I can see your point there, and I somewhat agree. I don't think anyone should necessarily need to belong to a "club" to own a firearm though. Again, that doesn't alleviate the issue of criminals having them.

I do agree with certain things like registering firearms. No, that also doesn't keep criminals from getting firearms, but, it could serve many purposes that would help in such instances.

Let's say I take a whole hour out of my day to go down to the police station to write down my name, fingerprints, serial number from my handgun and a couple of ballistic samples. Oh darn, I lost an hour of my life. I lose more than that on these forums every day, whatever... Okay. My handgun gets stolen somehow and is used in a crime. The ballistic evidence found on the scene matches mine. Well, if it was stolen, I reported it long before the crime probably. So I'm safe-ish. But, who would have had access to the gun? I can narrow the field down from a city of over a million people to probably about 20 people tops. That will help the police to solve the crime a lot more effectively and efficiently. I have no problem with the police knowing that I have a handgun, or hunting rifle, or blunderbuss, if such knowledge could be used in productive ways in the future.

The biggest issue though, is how do we get the guns away from criminals? I think we can all agree that "By taking them away from law abiding citizens." isn't precisely an answer that makes any sort of sense whatsoever. Hell, do that, and all that will happen is that crime will rise. It would take a huge wall out of the way for criminals. Hypothetically speaking, if I were going to bust into someones house, I'd do it to the person I knew didn't have a gun long before I'd do it to someone who I thought might have a double barreled shotgun sitting in their closet. Just sayin'...

As far as using the UK as an example, yes, great. The ban on guns there is fine and dandy, and is working sort of well. After how long now? At least 70 years, I'm pretty positive on that. But there are still criminals with guns, they're still using them. Granted, not on a scale as large as the U.S., but, at the same time, the UK doesn't have quite the poverty problem the US does overall. Which like it or not, is a factor. Nor does it have an equivalent population, which is also a factor, if you look at gun crime to population ratios.

I'm not knocking the UK, please don't misunderstand me. I'm just saying that there are other factors that need to be taken into consideration, aside from just "Because they're banned, and have been since the queen mum was in diapers." That is part of the reason it's working okay (but still not completely), but it's not the whole reason.

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(in reply to VanIsleKnight)

Post #: 104

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:17:24 PM

Loki45

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Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Well what Van Isle is saying sounds good Loki how about something like that?

It sounds to me like he's proving my point, honestly.

They tried to ban alcohol -- didn't work, now it's legal again.
They're banned drugs -- not working, people suggest legalization to curb drug violence
You want to ban guns -- won't work and people will suggest legalizing them to curb violence.

See the trend?

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 8/11/2009 5:18:23 PM >

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Post #: 105

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:22:38 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
Hey, the Republicans are still shooting people (see Cheney, Dick), but it just doesn't make as much sense today. Guns aren't really necessary anymore with the substantial contributions of law enforcement. There is no lawless "Wild West" anymore, or "Injuns" to battle.

LoL. Did you seriously just say that? You do realize that it was the law enforcers of Texas who campaigned for our concealed handgun license laws, right? They KNOW they can't be everywhere and save everyone. They KNOW the best hope for a citizen to protect himself is to do it himself.

As they say "When SECONDS count, cops are only MINUTES away."

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
Get over yourself about owning a handgun. Hunting arms? I guess because men need to be barbaric from time to time, with their insouciant traditions and all.

Consdering the growing number of people saying that our society is due to collapse, I'm sure some people would prefer to know how to hunt their own food.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
However, you can stick any arguement about protecting yourself somewhere that the sun doesn't shine.

Really? Tell me that after your home is invaded and you're shot by burgalar. Tell me that after you'er walking through the mall and some nut goes on a rampage. Tell me that after your school is terrorized by some idiot who won't be turned away by a sign that reads "gun free zone."

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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Post #: 106

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:26:43 PM

aphotic

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Joined: 5/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

Really? Tell me that after your home is invaded and you're shot by burgalar. Tell me that after you'er walking through the mall and some nut goes on a rampage. Tell me that after your school is terrorized by some idiot who won't be turned away by a sign that reads "gun free zone."

I hear the sky is falling too; better go bunker down with your firearms.

(in reply to Loki45)

Post #: 107

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:29:44 PM

Loki45

Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
I hear the sky is falling too; better go bunker down with your firearms.

Guys like you crack me up. I see you every night on the news when there's a mass shooting talking about how you cowered under a table when the shooting began and how 'terrifying' it was.

Sky is falling? Did you really try and assign that cliche to this debate? Pennsylvania fitness center. Virginia Tech. Columbine. The church shooting in Missouri. The college in Illinois. The shooting rampage at the mall in the midwest.

Sounds to me like the sky already fell. Your blinders are preventing you from seeing it.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

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Post #: 108

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:41:58 PM

DomImus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
Archaic parchment or not.

I cannot tell you how relieved I am that you are Canadian.

(in reply to VanIsleKnight)

Post #: 109

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:44:12 PM

aphotic

Posts: 119
Joined: 5/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
Hey, the Republicans are still shooting people (see Cheney, Dick), but it just doesn't make as much sense today. Guns aren't really necessary anymore with the substantial contributions of law enforcement. There is no lawless "Wild West" anymore, or "Injuns" to battle.

LoL. Did you seriously just say that? You do realize that it was the law enforcers of Texas who campaigned for our concealed handgun license laws, right? They KNOW they can't be everywhere and save everyone. They KNOW the best hope for a citizen to protect himself is to do it himself.

As they say "When SECONDS count, cops are only MINUTES away."

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
Get over yourself about owning a handgun. Hunting arms? I guess because men need to be barbaric from time to time, with their insouciant traditions and all.

Consdering the growing number of people saying that our society is due to collapse, I'm sure some people would prefer to know how to hunt their own food.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
However, you can stick any arguement about protecting yourself somewhere that the sun doesn't shine.

Really? Tell me that after your home is invaded and you're shot by burgalar. Tell me that after you'er walking through the mall and some nut goes on a rampage. Tell me that after your school is terrorized by some idiot who won't be turned away by a sign that reads "gun free zone."

None of this made sense.

1) Your complaint starts off by mentioning Texas. Seriously, wtf?

2) You're right, cops can't be everywhere all the time, but they do a better job than any other time in the history of men. If only Yosemite Sam was at Columbine...tragedy would have been averted! Yay!

3) Who are you? Duke Nukem?

4) Because we all know about the numerous shootings at local malls -- which happen daily -- huh? And they are always saved by the trusty, gun-wielding vigilante who is there to create justice!

5) Seriously, Duke, is that you?

6) Are you lighting up on crack while watching Sunday morning televangelists?

"Society is in epic decay."

And every single generation of Christians thus far has seen the evolution of humanities "horrors", terrible enough to mark the apocalypse.

7) Hm, I wonder what the survival rate is for those armed vs. unarmed in the event of a home break-in.

"Well Sir, I was just there to rob them, but they pulled a gun on me. I had no choice at that point"

Ah, the dilemas of being a burglar.

8) Duke Nukem watching televangelists on a Sunday morning. Thank you for that thought. I bet this mythical person also sits in a NFL chair, wearing a thong, while looking up porn at the same time.

9) I never said people shouldn't be allowed to have rifles or shotguns. I poked light at what I consider is a dim arguement at best, but that was strictly my satirical opinion.

10) If I get shot my a burglar in my home, I hope it's the hamburglar. Your odds are much better for dying to a red meat induced heart attack.

You're never going to win against the absolute dregs of society. Every society will have them, and it doesn't justify poisoning the well to advance the witch's agenda.

This wasn't a personal attack on you, or anyone else on these forums. It's meant to provide counterpoints in my attacking, and often times less than humorous, style.

< Message edited by aphotic -- 8/11/2009 5:46:20 PM >

(in reply to Loki45)

Post #: 110

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:45:07 PM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
I hear the sky is falling too; better go bunker down with your firearms.

Guys like you crack me up. I see you every night on the news when there's a mass shooting talking about how you cowered under a table when the shooting began and how 'terrifying' it was.

Sky is falling? Did you really try and assign that cliche to this debate? Pennsylvania fitness center. Virginia Tech. Columbine. The church shooting in Missouri. The college in Illinois. The shooting rampage at the mall in the midwest.

Sounds to me like the sky already fell. Your blinders are preventing you from seeing it.

I believe that mall you are referring to is the one here in Salt Lake City, about 2 miles from my house.

I figure this aphotic person as someone who has never been outside of the hippie area of WA that he's in, much less ever grown up a gay male in the upper midwest, rural, farming, just as prejudiced as the bible belt parts of the US. Or lived in a very unsavory area of cities at points in his life because that's where he could afford to live, and a common weekly occurrence was the swat team knocking someones door down on a meth bust next door.

I could be wrong, of course, but, I'm pretty sure I'm correct on at least a couple of the points there.

I move that we just forget that poster and stick with the ones who, although we may disagree with them, at least make sense and bring valid viewpoints to the table. :)

_____________________________

We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

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(in reply to Loki45)

Post #: 111

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:49:45 PM

VanIsleKnight

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/4/2009
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Sorry about that DomImus ;^_^ It's actually a pretty good system written down there, there's just a few things that need to be changed for modern times because as fun as following something out of tradition is, it doesn't always mean that's going to be the best way to do things.

I guess though people are worried that if you change -one- thing for a little bit of good, what's to stop others from changing -many- things for a lot of bad? It's like "The Lottery" (following a bad tradition because it's tradition is foolish) is battling with "Animal Farm". (everyone is equal *paint* everyone is equal, but some people are more equal then others).

_____________________________

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Post #: 112

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:50:43 PM

Loki45

Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir
I believe that mall you are referring to is the one here in Salt Lake City, about 2 miles from my house.

I figure this aphotic person as someone who has never been outside of the hippie area of WA that he's in, much less ever grown up a gay male in the upper midwest, rural, farming, just as prejudiced as the bible belt parts of the US. Or lived in a very unsavory area of cities at points in his life because that's where he could afford to live, and a common weekly occurrence was the swat team knocking someones door down on a meth bust next door.

I could be wrong, of course, but, I'm pretty sure I'm correct on at least a couple of the points there.

I move that we just forget that poster and stick with the ones who, although we may disagree with them, at least make sense and bring valid viewpoints to the table. :)

Sounds reasonable to me. Let's let him get back to his fantasy world where nothing bad ever happens.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to BKSir)

Post #: 113

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:56:01 PM

Loki45

Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
I guess though people are worried that if you change -one- thing for a little bit of good, what's to stop others from changing -many- things for a lot of bad?

That's the argument the gun 'nuts' will always use. And unfortunately, the only way around it is to eliminate that amendment altogether, which of course isn't the answer.

I've always been a 'middle-ground' person on most issues. I have no need for a cannon or an arsenal of fully automatic machineguns, but I will own a pistol, and perhaps a shotgun. I watch the nightly news and I simply won't be unarmed the day an armed intruder mistakes my house for an easy target.

We had a lady here....56 years old answer a knock at her door, starring into the barrel of a gun that was then fired, point blank. The one who did it, they presume, had the wrong house. It was just a random thing. She answered a knock at her door and is now dead. Calling the cops didn't help her. Having her own gun might not have done it either. But had she been a lil cautious, perhaps even a little paranoid and then had one....who knows.

The point is that bad shit happens daily. And it's not getting better, it's getting worse. The answer to it is not to disarm the law-abiding populace. It's finding ways to stop the lawless ones. And the cops can't do it alone. They never could. This isn't Mayberry.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to VanIsleKnight)

Post #: 114

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 5:58:20 PM

Loki45

Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
None of this made sense.

None of it, hmm? Seriously or are you just kidding?

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphotic
1) Your complaint starts off by mentioning Texas. Seriously, wtf?

I mentioned Texas because that's where I live. We have concealed handgun laws here that were lobbied for BY the police, who knew they can't be everywhere.

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to aphotic)

Post #: 115

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 6:00:25 PM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight

Sorry about that DomImus ;^_^ It's actually a pretty good system written down there, there's just a few things that need to be changed for modern times because as fun as following something out of tradition is, it doesn't always mean that's going to be the best way to do things.

I guess though people are worried that if you change -one- thing for a little bit of good, what's to stop others from changing -many- things for a lot of bad? It's like "The Lottery" (following a bad tradition because it's tradition is foolish) is battling with "Animal Farm". (everyone is equal *paint* everyone is equal, but some people are more equal then others).

Now that I fully agree with. Things certainly do change over time, and they should. Without changing, we become stagnant and pretty pathetic. And I do agree that gun laws are one of the things that should be changed, in the long run.

The thing that I'm most interested in is how. The whole "Ban them all" thing, while it's a great idea on paper, just isn't practical or realistic. As far as "Gradual changes", that's all well and good, but, how do we get a majority agreement on what those changes should be? How gradual?

It's all well and good to pass all the laws you want, as long as they'll be followed. Therein lies the whole problem with the issue though.

I do apologize if I'm sounding argumentative here, I don't mean to. I do agree with many of the viewpoints from both sides of the issue. But, as I said, the part that I'm most interested in is the "how".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

The point is that bad shit happens daily. And it's not getting better, it's getting worse. The answer to it is not to disarm the law-abiding populace. It's finding ways to stop the lawless ones. And the cops can't do it alone. They never could. This isn't Mayberry.

God knows it would be nice if it were though. Aunt Bea baking pies, handsome sheriff Andy keeping everyone happy and safe, everyone still smoking because it's not bad for us yet, cheap idiot of a mechanic who may not know much, but sure can fix a car fast, biggest worry is deputy Barney getting together with what's her name, and drunk ol' Otis tripping over the curb as he takes himself to the police station to sleep it off...

Maybe that's what we need, more cigarettes and pies. ;)

< Message edited by BKSir -- 8/11/2009 6:05:24 PM >

_____________________________

We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

BiggKatt Studios

(in reply to VanIsleKnight)

Post #: 116

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 6:02:25 PM

Loki45

Posts: 2100
Joined: 5/13/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir
The thing that I'm most interested in is how. The whole "Ban them all" thing, while it's a great idea on paper, just isn't practical or realistic. As far as "Gradual changes", that's all well and good, but, how do we get a majority agreement on what those changes should be? How gradual?

Our government....hell even our populace has yet to agree on a gradual 'anything.' How long have they been arguing illegal immigration? How long have they been arguing over taxes, the deficit, etc?

_____________________________

"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
'Till my legs give out, can't shut my mouth."

(in reply to BKSir)

Post #: 117

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 6:12:06 PM

VanIsleKnight

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/4/2009
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Well, for starters, you can make it much more difficult to legally own a gun. Restrict the sales of firearms and ammunition to -very- specific shops, no deals where if you sign-up here or buy this you get a free gun. You go to a gun store with your license, purchase the gun, wait three days, get the gun.

Another thing you can do is recycle guns. Sounds really hippyish to do but melt them down or whatever it is that recyclers do. They're only valuable as evidence for so long. The more guns there are available, the cheaper or easier they'll be to get.

Proper education and stricter requirements for a license with similar penalties for misuse, handling, or care. In my opinion they should be treated like cars, if you can't prove to safely and responsibly handle them, you don't deserve to have them. (Though this infringes on the "right to bear arms" so instead take away the privilege to purchase and own lethal ammunition)

Federal law since this is a federal, nationwide issue should take priority, not state law.

< Message edited by VanIsleKnight -- 8/11/2009 6:13:37 PM >

_____________________________

Apologies for what you feel might be a spelling error. I'm Canadian.

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Post #: 118

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 6:19:05 PM

BKSir

Posts: 4037
Joined: 4/8/2008
From: Salt Lake City, UT
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight

Well, for starters, you can make it much more difficult to legally own a gun. Restrict the sales of firearms and ammunition to -very- specific shops, no deals where if you sign-up here or buy this you get a free gun. You go to a gun store with your license, purchase the gun, wait three days, get the gun.

Another thing you can do is recycle guns. Sounds really hippyish to do but melt them down or whatever it is that recyclers do. They're only valuable as evidence for so long. The more guns there are available, the cheaper or easier they'll be to get.

Proper education and stricter requirements for a license with similar penalties for misuse, handling, or care. In my opinion they should be treated like cars, if you can't prove to safely and responsibly handle them, you don't deserve to have them. (Though this infringes on the "right to bear arms" so instead take away the privilege to purchase and own lethal ammunition)

Federal law since this is a federal, nationwide issue should take priority, not state law.

See, now I like the way you're thinking here.

We do already have a 7 day waiting period in most places, which I'm fine with.

Recycling them, hell, don't melt them down, send the working ones off to our under supplied troops. But, yes, I do agree that the recycling of old evidence guns is a valid direction. However, they're just sitting on a shelf in a police station basement anyway, so no real threat from them.

Your third point there, I could not agree more! I would be overjoyed to go down and take a course and prove that I can and do treat it with the respect it deserves. And if it's found that I don't, PLEASE take it away from me. If I can't use it properly and wisely, it's dangerous and I don't want it.

EDIT:

However, while that's all great for your average John Q. Public, it still doesn't answer the most difficult part, of, how to get the guns away from the criminals. As that truly is where the biggest problem with firearms lies.

< Message edited by BKSir -- 8/11/2009 6:29:01 PM >

_____________________________

We'll begin with a spin, traveling in a world of my creation. What we'll see will defy explanation.

I am the voices in your head.

BiggKatt Studios

(in reply to VanIsleKnight)

Post #: 119

RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 7:48:02 PM

FangsNfeet

Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
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He used Rubber Bean Bag bullets. It's not like he's the most dangerous man in the world. A warning shot or a "Hey who goes there?" would have been better but, he did do better than what other people in their 20's and 30's could have done.

I can't wait to see you at age 82.

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