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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:23:09 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Yeah get that out of your head loki because it's jingostic nonsense. We value freedoms in Britan to, my country is the cradle of moderrn democracy and the Magna Carta was in existence well before america had even been discovered. Presumably the unrest south of the borer would be irrelvant if there was more effective border control? Other countries when they have strict gun laws do not end up with criminals shooting up defenceless civilians in the strt as a matter of couse. There is no reason to believe the same thing would not happen in America loki.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:24:16 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		There is no question of banning something overnight Loki I have already outlined how a gradual process could work whilst still allowing civilians to be armed.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:25:08 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

There is no question of banning something overnight Loki I have already outlined how a gradual process could work whilst still allowing civilians to be armed.


Yeah, we've seen how the 'gradual process' can be used to subjugate a nation, haven't we? *Looks in Germany's direction*


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:26:48 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Yeah get that out of your head loki because it's jingostic nonsense. We value freedoms in Britan to, my country is the cradle of moderrn democracy and the Magna Carta was in existence well before america had even been discovered. Presumably the unrest south of the borer would be irrelvant if there was more effective border control?


LoL

That was rich. Thank you. It's just "that simple" is it? Do you know how long the politicians of this country have struggled with, side-stepped and denied the need for border control? And you think that's the 'magic pill' to stop illegal arms from coming in? We can't stop illegal PEOPLE coming in and you think we can or will stop illegal arms?




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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:27:50 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Stroll on sunshine you think the rise of Nazism was the result of civilians not being armed? How about the fact they voted them into power? That is bollox Loki as i am sure you are well aware.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:30:21 PM   
beargonewild


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Status: offline 		Loki....I do understand that it is written in your Constitution the right to bear arms. What I was trying to get at is there has to be a point in time when a country's constitution has to slowly change and evolve to accurately reflect society's views as accurate as possible. I fully understand that whether it is the US or Canada, any constitutional right normally will not abruptly change as that type of change happens over time.
It's tough for some to believe that we also have a big problem with guns falling into the wrong hands and most illegal guns here are smuggled in from outside the country. Yet the commonality that I am seeing is both our countries have a major problem with weapons illegally being acquired and used and that is a problem which has no easy solution which will satisfy the average law abiding citizen in both our countries.

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 8/11/2009 4:37:31 PM >

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:30:25 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		Well if they've side stepped and denied the issue then they have no one to blame but themselves. You've just said the reason strict gun lwonork civil unrest south of the border. The logical answer would be effective border controls Loki. Other countries manage it. Imagine sharing borders with the formerYugoslav.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:30:28 PM   
BKSir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

There is no question of banning something overnight Loki I have already outlined how a gradual process could work whilst still allowing civilians to be armed.


Yeah, we've seen how the 'gradual process' can be used to subjugate a nation, haven't we? *Looks in Germany's direction*



Hey now kids, play nice...

Yes, a gradual process can be used in such a way, but, it can also be used in positive ways, such as, free the slaves, give black people the right to vote, let black people into the schools, let there be interracial marriage, and it snowballs forth from all of that into equality.

It falls back onto the edit I made to my previous post of the importance of being responsible in using ones tools, not the tools themselves.

The UK has changed many things gradually, but they're not one of the countries I would equate to Nazi Germany in any manner.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:30:57 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Stroll on sunshine you think the rise of Nazism was the result of civilians not being armed? How about the fact they voted them into power? That is bollox Loki as i am sure you are well aware.


And once elected, they slowly wittled away rights and freedoms until a certain class of people wore Stars. Then they just....ya know....quietly moved them out. And then they exterminated them.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:33:01 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
Loki....I do understand that it is written in your Constitution the right to bear arms. What I was trying to get at is there has to be a point in time when a country's constitution has to slowly change and evolve to accurately reflect society's views as accurate as possible. I fully understand that whether it is the US or Canada, any constitutional right normal will not abruptly change as that type of change happens over time.
It's tough for some to believe that we also have a big problem with guns falling into the wrong hands and most illegal guns here are smuggled in from outside the country. Yet the commonality that I am seeing is both our countries have a major problem with weapons illegally being acquired and used and that is a problem which has no easy solution which will satisfy the average law abiding citizen in both our countries.


Exactly. It's not just tough to believe that there's a big problem. It's tough to see that banning them will fix it. We all know that the outlaws always obtain whatever is outlawed. It's been that way for centuries.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:34:10 PM   
VanIsleKnight


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Status: offline 		Did you seriously just pull a Godwin's Law?


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:35:02 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Stroll on sunshine you think the rise of Nazism was the result of civilians not being armed? How about the fact they voted them into power? That is bollox Loki as i am sure you are well aware.


ERm...the rise of Nazism in Germany was not a result of German citizens accessing illegal arms....it was the brilliant political maneuvering of Hitler using the political power he gained to bring about the atrocities of the Nazi regime. Hitler used his political power to play on the ignorance of the population to bring about his concept of a petrfect German society and sadly the rest of the world had to deal with the repercussions.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:36:55 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
You've just said the reason strict gun lwonork civil unrest south of the border.


Actually that's not the only reason I listed. I merely said that was one place we could go to get such things if they were banned. It goes far beyond that. Just because the U.S. bans something doesn't mean there won't be a shitload of organizations ready willing and able to bring it in illegally.

Drugs are illegal too. Notice how well that's been working out for us?


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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:37:49 PM   
Starbuck09


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Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Yes and that had nothing whatsoever to do with citizens not having access to weapons Loki. Germans voted away their democracy. If you're suggesting that had some jewish citizens had had firearms the holocaust would have been averted you are sorely mistaken. That would simply have given the nazis more justification to the people who voted for them of the need for their actions. I also think you'll find [not that it made one whit of difference in my opinion] that the vast majority of males in Germany had their own weapons from the first world war you only have to look at the Freikorps that sprang up.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:38:09 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
Did you seriously just pull a Godwin's Law?


Why not? All the 'cool kids' are doing it these days.


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"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:39:09 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		I know bear that's what i was saying. That's what it says in the quote. I don't understand?

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:40:08 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Yes and that had nothing whatsoever to do with citizens not having access to weapons Loki. Germans voted away their democracy. If you're suggesting that had some jewish citizens had had firearms the holocaust would have been averted you are sorely mistaken. That would simply have given the nazis more justification to the people who voted for them of the need for their actions. I also think you'll find [not that it made one whit of difference in my opinion] that the vast majority of males in Germany had their own weapons from the first world war you only have to look at the Freikorps that sprang up.


I believe you're merging two of my points into one. It's a sneaky tactic to try and win an argument, but it doesn't make you right. I made the Germany reference in reply to your "gradually banning" things. They did things "gradually" too and look where it got them. That is the mindset in every gun-right advocate the moment you talk about banning anything. Their first thought is "what's next that you want to ban?" And that is why "gradually banning" things will not work.


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"'Till the roof comes off, 'till the lights go out
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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:41:55 PM   
beargonewild


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Status: offline 		Simply stated that fact more clearly since debates such as this needs specifics to avoid misunderstandings. 

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:42:10 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		That's not good reasoning though loki. THe drug war hasn't stopped the flow of drugs therefore perhaps you should relax the laws on drug dealing and reclassify hard drugs and see how that works out? Come on Loki I am not saying you cannot have firearms I am saying you nee to at least attempt to get them undr control and thereare ways to do it. Other countries mnge it, thre is no reason if the political and public will is there that America cannot do it to.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:47:54 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		I was certainly not being sneaky loki I thought you were trying to say that Germany's citizens did not have access tuns therefore the nazis wereable to gain power. It seems your actual argument is even worse, beause the Nazis did things gradually that somehow means that banning dangerous activity gradually was somehow a parralell of Hitler's rise to power. Hitler was voted in, perhaps we should be carefull f havng elections after all we only have to look at Germany to see how  that turned out.

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