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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:33:14 PM   
Starbuck09


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Normal folk can snap but if you are going to have guns then you want to ensure that there are as few people who are going to snap as possible.
If you had strict gun laws you could get guns off the streets Loki it would take time but it's a very big problem so it is always going to take time. In Britian we have incredibly strict gun laws and very very few shootings a year precisely because criminals finsd it just as hard to get access to firearms as citizens in some cases even more so. The reason there are so few guns available in the u.k. is generational policing it took a long time to get it to the level it is today but i think it's worth it. 

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:37:46 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Normal folk can snap but if you are going to have guns then you want to ensure that there are as few people who are going to snap as possible.
If you had strict gun laws you could get guns off the streets Loki it would take time but it's a very big problem so it is always going to take time. In Britian we have incredibly strict gun laws and very very few shootings a year precisely because criminals finsd it just as hard to get access to firearms as citizens in some cases even more so. The reason there are so few guns available in the u.k. is generational policing it took a long time to get it to the level it is today but i think it's worth it. 


And here in America, the states (or districts) with the strictest rules on gun laws have the highest murder rates in the country.

< Message edited by Loki45 -- 8/11/2009 3:38:00 PM >


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:43:22 PM   
VanIsleKnight


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Well generally it doesn't work very well if you have one state that has extremely strict gun laws next to a whole bunch of other states that -don't- have strict gun laws and you can travel from state to state relatively freely.

Guns are designed for one thing and one thing only.  To kill.  Effectively, quickly, and easily.

I personally believe that if you aren't a security guard, a police officer, or in the military, you have absolutely zero business owning a lethal firearm.  Archaic parchment or not.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:44:25 PM   
Starbuck09


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Yes because the country as a whole is flooded with readily available firearms Loki. In Britain if Kent or London had draconian measures but nowhere else then I imagine the murder rates would be highest there. I would start bringing in the gunlaws by banning certain types of weapon with automatic life sentences for carrying one [without a liscence obtained by the training clean criminal record and psychological tests I want] such as semi automatic weapons and move on from there. That way there will still be firearms available to the public but the numbers of weapons will decrease. Then move on to a different weapon type and continue.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:48:49 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
Well generally it doesn't work very well if you have one state that has extremely strict gun laws next to a whole bunch of other states that -don't- have strict gun laws and you can travel from state to state relatively freely.

Guns are designed for one thing and one thing only.  To kill.  Effectively, quickly, and easily.

I personally believe that if you aren't a security guard, a police officer, or in the military, you have absolutely zero business owning a lethal firearm.  Archaic parchment or not.


Well then it's a good thing you're not in charge. Considering how it appears you'd just tear up the constitution because of what you believe.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:50:51 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
I would start bringing in the gunlaws by banning certain types of weapon with automatic life sentences for carrying one [without a liscence obtained by the training clean criminal record and psychological tests I want] such as semi automatic weapons and move on from there. That way there will still be firearms available to the public but the numbers of weapons will decrease. Then move on to a different weapon type and continue.


Well that's all well and good. But we here in the U.S. value our constitution. And in that constitution, you can't take away the firearms. Perhaps you over in the U.K. are perfectly fine with it. But having it in our constitution means we will always have the weapons.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:53:41 PM   
VanIsleKnight


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Do you even understand why that was put into the constitution?  What the environment and general circumstances were?  Do you actually understand the meaning and intent of the constitution as it was written at the time, or do you just bark the term around as rhetoric?

Quick edit, I have no problem with the "right to bear arms"

I believe every man, woman, and child should possess at least one set of bear arms.  Roar. ;D

Seriously though, firearms, go ahead and keep.  The constitution says nothing about the type of ammunition used however.  At least as far as I know.


< Message edited by VanIsleKnight -- 8/11/2009 3:56:47 PM >


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:55:32 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight

Do you even understand why that was put into the constitution?  What the environment and general circumstances were?  Do you actually understand the meaning and intent of the constitution as it was written at the time, or do you just bark the term around as rhetoric?


Yep, I understand it quite well. And the fact is it's in there. It's not rhetoric and it won't change.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 3:59:56 PM   
BKSir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight

Well generally it doesn't work very well if you have one state that has extremely strict gun laws next to a whole bunch of other states that -don't- have strict gun laws and you can travel from state to state relatively freely.

Guns are designed for one thing and one thing only.  To kill.  Effectively, quickly, and easily.

I personally believe that if you aren't a security guard, a police officer, or in the military, you have absolutely zero business owning a lethal firearm.  Archaic parchment or not.



In an ideal world, where citizens giving up their firearms meant EVERY citizen gave them up, and not just the ones who aren't gang members, rapists, burglars, robbers, etc., I would be glad to hand mine in also.  Unfortunately, this is hardly an ideal world, and be damned if I'm going to allow some gay basher or burglar to come into my house with their gun and do what they damn well pleased, because I gave up my right to protect myself equally.

In that ideal world that you seem to wish for, not even the police or military would need guns.  Sounds like a great place, and I do, very seriously, wish we lived in such a world, but, we don't.

Part of the issue seems to be that many are under the impression that because I own a firearm, I'm some sort of maniacal, homicidal sociopath who goes on weekly shooting rampages.  When, in fact, I hope that I am never ever forced to use it.  I don't want to use it.  I don't even REALLY want to own it.  But, the aforementioned "bad guys" probably won't really care much were I to say, "No, you can't shoot me because you're not supposed to have a gun / because I don't believe you should have a gun."

I tend to only even go to the shooting range maybe twice per year to keep myself and my firearm from getting rusty.  Otherwise, it sits in its spot and gets cleaned every month or so.

There is also this thing called "reason".  I think people should be allowed to own firearms, within reason.  Collectors pieces, such as muzzle loaders?  Sure.  Why not.  One can hunt with them, but one is not exactly in any imminent danger from one.  A handgun for defense or a hunting rifle?  Why not?  Hunting can be fun, and can garner some very delicious rewards.  I already covered the defense part.  But I don't see the reason behind anyone needing a fully automatic assult rifle, or rocket launcher.  If you're in something so deep and nasty that you need one of those, let's be honest... it's not going to do you much good anyway, and will just delay the inevitable.  I don't need an ak-47 for self defense.  I don't need an m-16 to go hunting with.  What am I going to be hunting with an m-16?  An entire herd of caribou?  No, probably not.

Do I think they should be banned though?  Meh...  not really.  I think that people who feel the absolute need to have something like that should be evaluated by a credible psychologist though.

But again, until this wonderous utopia of brotherly love comes about and the criminals are standing there in line with me to turn their guns in also, I fully intend on holding on to mine.  I never know when I will need it, and I surely hope that "never" is when.

EDIT:  because I forgot one of the points I was wanting to make.

We need to get rid of cars also.  More people, by FAR die because of those, than do from firearms every year.  Way more dangerous.  And cell phones.  Couple those with cars, and you have something that is just as dangerous as drunk driving.

Don't forget to clean out all the knives in your kitchen drawers and the tools from your shed.  Those things are insanely dangerous!  I cut myself on something like that at least once a week.  And firewood!  I ripped a huge chunk out of my hand moving firewood a few days ago.  A lot more injury than I've ever received from my handgun.

Firearms are tools.  Plain and simple.  Yes, they're tools for killing things.  So are knives, and arrows.  Are we going to make those illegal also?  Clubs too, such as, oh, hammers.  More people are killed yearly from things such as hammers, lead pipes, knives, etc. than one would care to imagine.  Food also.  Everyone agrees that obesity is a problem and can kill people and that certain foods can cause cancers.  Yet we don't make food illegal, do we?  No, we say "It's because they are being irresponsible in how they're using the food."  It's no different than a firearm.  People die not because of firearms, but because people are being irresponsible in how they use them.  For example, I stand more chance of injury, with how my handgun is stored, by dropping a hammer on my foot, than I do if I drop IT on my foot.  The hammer is more dangerous in this scenario, and should be banned under that logic.  The same with my kitchen knives.

It is a tool, and any tool, be it a firearm, hammer, circular saw, car, wood splitter, knife, stapler, or cup of hot coffee can be dangerous if used irresponsibly.  But, how many people want to ban any of those things, aside from firearms?  It would simply make more sense to just ban irresponsible people.  And be just about as easy.  Although, I think it would be simpler to get everyone to agree to do that.


< Message edited by BKSir -- 8/11/2009 4:10:36 PM >


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:00:16 PM   
VanIsleKnight


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Care to explain it then in detail?

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:02:18 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight

Care to explain it then in detail?


Not even a little bit. Do your own research. I don't come to message boards to teach Constitution 101.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:03:28 PM   
Starbuck09


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You do not have to take away all firearms Loki simply restrict the number and type available and make the qualifications for having one strict. If the argument boils down to simply that the constitution allows it so that's that then I guess there is no point having this converstaion as it doesn't matter what points I make.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:03:47 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BKSir
In an ideal world, where citizens giving up their firearms meant EVERY citizen gave them up, and not just the ones who aren't gang members, rapists, burglars, robbers, etc., I would be glad to hand mine in also.  Unfortunately, this is hardly an ideal world, and be damned if I'm going to allow some gay basher or burglar to come into my house with their gun and do what they damn well pleased, because I gave up my right to protect myself equally.

In that ideal world that you seem to wish for, not even the police or military would need guns.  Sounds like a great place, and I do, very seriously, wish we lived in such a world, but, we don't.

Part of the issue seems to be that many are under the impression that because I own a firearm, I'm some sort of maniacal, homicidal sociopath who goes on weekly shooting rampages.  When, in fact, I hope that I am never ever forced to use it.  I don't want to use it.  I don't even REALLY want to own it.  But, the aforementioned "bad guys" probably won't really care much were I to say, "No, you can't shoot me because you're not supposed to have a gun / because I don't believe you should have a gun."

I tend to only even go to the shooting range maybe twice per year to keep myself and my firearm from getting rusty.  Otherwise, it sits in its spot and gets cleaned every month or so.

There is also this thing called "reason".  I think people should be allowed to own firearms, within reason.  Collectors pieces, such as muzzle loaders?  Sure.  Why not.  One can hunt with them, but one is not exactly in any imminent danger from one.  A handgun for defense or a hunting rifle?  Why not?  Hunting can be fun, and can garner some very delicious rewards.  I already covered the defense part.  But I don't see the reason behind anyone needing a fully automatic assult rifle, or rocket launcher.  If you're in something so deep and nasty that you need one of those, let's be honest... it's not going to do you much good anyway, and will just delay the inevitable.  I don't need an ak-47 for self defense.  I don't need an m-16 to go hunting with.  What am I going to be hunting with an m-16?  An entire herd of caribou?  No, probably not.

Do I think they should be banned though?  Meh...  not really.  I think that people who feel the absolute need to have something like that should be evaluated by a credible psychologist though.

But again, until this wonderous utopia of brotherly love comes about and the criminals are standing there in line with me to turn their guns in also, I fully intend on holding on to mine.  I never know when I will need it, and I surely hope that "never" is when.


Well said.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:03:51 PM   
VanIsleKnight


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Ah, gotcha.  So you're just another one of those "all talk no walk" types of gun owners who -think- they understand the Constitution but really don't just want to give up their boomstick.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:05:19 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

You do not have to take away all firearms Loki simply restrict the number and type available and make the qualifications for having one strict. If the argument boils down to simply that the constitution allows it so that's that then I guess there is no point having this converstaion as it doesn't matter what points I make.


It doesn't matter what points you make because as I said, in restriction only the criminals can get them. Right now in the U.S., it's illegal to own a fully automatic weapon (without heavy, heavy permits, etc). Yet are criminals and gang bangers doing drive bys with them? You bet your ass they are. Fat lot of good restricting those things has done, hmm?


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:07:01 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VanIsleKnight
Ah, gotcha.  So you're just another one of those "all talk no walk" types of gun owners who -think- they understand the Constitution but really don't just want to give up their boomstick.


No, I'm just one of those "I don't need to prove anything to an anonymous person on a message board" types of people.

You asked if I understood it. I said I did. You can believe that or not. I don't care. I'm not going to devote the time or energy to give you a lecture on what it means just to appease your holier-than-thou demand that I do so.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:09:52 PM   
Starbuck09


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What do you mean in restriction only criminals can get them? I have already shown you how in britan this is not the case. In Britian fully automatic weapons are completely banned yet no criminals have used a fully automatic weapon to kill someone in years. Why do you think that is Loki? The problem in America is that such weapons are readily available and very little is done to stop the sale of weapons that are easily modifiable to automatic weapons.

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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:11:00 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
I would start bringing in the gunlaws by banning certain types of weapon with automatic life sentences for carrying one [without a liscence obtained by the training clean criminal record and psychological tests I want] such as semi automatic weapons and move on from there. That way there will still be firearms available to the public but the numbers of weapons will decrease. Then move on to a different weapon type and continue.


Well that's all well and good. But we here in the U.S. value our constitution. And in that constitution, you can't take away the firearms. Perhaps you over in the U.K. are perfectly fine with it. But having it in our constitution means we will always have the weapons.



So you are indirectly saying that in a hundred years or even 200 years, the US Constitution will never change and evolve along side American society? It would seem to me that as the American society changes and evolves over time, that it would be logical to believe the Constitution would evolve also as well as all the right's which is spelled out in your constitution and charter of rights.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:17:42 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
What do you mean in restriction only criminals can get them? I have already shown you how in britan this is not the case. In Britian fully automatic weapons are completely banned yet no criminals have used a fully automatic weapon to kill someone in years. Why do you think that is Loki? The problem in America is that such weapons are readily available and very little is done to stop the sale of weapons that are easily modifiable to automatic weapons.


It's simple. We value freedoms here. And the action necessary to ensure such a 'ban' would be effective without scores of innocents getting killed by illegal guns goes against the very freedoms that make up this country. If you can't step on those freedoms, you can't enforce such bans except on those who would willingly obey the laws in the first place. If you can't protect the citizens from those who would ignore the bans, then it's a failure before it even starts. As others have already said "The geanie is out of the bottle" so to speak.

You know that M-80 fireworks are banned in Texas? But I'd bet you a week's pay you can slip south of the border, pick up a shitload and 'act cool' at the border crossing and viola.....M-80's in Texas. The same applies to automatic weapons. You think with the unrest south of the border that they'll just turn in those weapons and make them impossible for us to get? Nope. Not in a million years.


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RE: The issue of firearms - 8/11/2009 4:20:26 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild
So you are indirectly saying that in a hundred years or even 200 years, the US Constitution will never change and evolve along side American society? It would seem to me that as the American society changes and evolves over time, that it would be logical to believe the Constitution would evolve also as well as all the right's which is spelled out in your constitution and charter of rights.


What I'm saying is that the basic freedoms afforded by the constitution will not 'go away' to the point where we have no guns in this country. Of course it evolves. But look at what's happening now. People are using the 2nd amendment to try and justify having freakin' assault cannons in their homes. If they're doing that, they won't be giving up the smaller weapons any time soon.

And if they tried tou out-right ban something 'overnight,' there'd be such an uproar I don't think I'd want to be here to witness it.

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