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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 1:25:27 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Yep, let's raise it to such a ridiculous degree that companies will lay off half their workers, and raise their prices yet again to offset the cost of paying their workers.

So then what should the proper course of action be?

By your theory if we cut the minimum wage in half companies will hire twice as many workers and lower prices?

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 1:36:57 PM

Arpig

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quote:

Could it be said that the minimum wage increase is a new tax on the middle class, I wonder?

You know, in a way it is.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 1:46:49 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Could it be said that the minimum wage increase is a new tax on the middle class, I wonder?
You know, in a way it is.

Well. I asked Sanity to explain that and he never did.

Since you agree, maybe you can help.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 2:20:15 PM

lazarus1983

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: lazarus1983

Yep, let's raise it to such a ridiculous degree that companies will lay off half their workers, and raise their prices yet again to offset the cost of paying their workers.

So then what should the proper course of action be?

By your theory if we cut the minimum wage in half companies will hire twice as many workers and lower prices?

It's not a theory, it's what actually happened the last time the minimum wage was jumped up. Now imagine Michigan is the only state in the union with a ridiculously high minimum wage of $10. Now what would you, as a corporation do? Would you move your industry into Michigan? What would you, as a company IN Michigan do? Could the mom and pop stores that hire kids just out of high school or just starting college afford to pay these unskilled workers $10 an hour? What about smaller chain retail stores or grocery stores or the like. Would they want to pay some pimply faced kid $10 an hour to be a cashier? To stock a shelf?

All that would be left would be the national chains that could actually afford to pay $10 an hour. And how would they do that? Raise the prices.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 2:39:13 PM

MissJanice2

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He was listening to me. For example, this busness has more than 600 buisness in place. They build new ones every day. The store I work in decided to cut everyone down to 20 hours weekly.
They wonder why we have an attitude.
I have begged for a transfer.

Respectfully,

Mistress_Jan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I guess it didn't work out that way for MissJanice. Her hours were cut after it was implimented, not before.

You aren't listening. You are assuming a causal relationship that makes no economic sense.

If a business had production needs, your premise is that they'd turn down the work rather than pay the wages? Hell, why not just close up shop? And why keep ANY workers at that rate?

No. They had payroll to cut, and they used the new law as an excuse to trim their excess capacity.

When they have new orders, they will hire new workers--at the higher rate.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 4:06:04 PM

numuncular

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can people actually live on $10 an hour?

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 4:43:51 PM

Arpig

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quote:

Well. I asked Sanity to explain that and he never did.

Since you agree, maybe you can help.

Sure. I worked on two assumptions.
1) The majority of minimum wage jobs are in small businesses or franchise operations.
2) The majority of small businesses or franchise operations are owned by what can be called middle class people.
So if these assumptions are correct, then raising the minimum wage will cost mostly middle class business owners.
From there, consider the following; the minimum wage is effectively the same as a government run low wage subsidy (where the government would supplement your income if you made to little). However,in the case of the minimum wage, instead of the government taxing the employer and then sending a cheque to the employee,the employer pays the surcharge directly to the employee. If you look at it this way,one could consider the minimum wage to effectively be a form of payroll tax.
Thus it can be seen as a payroll tax that mostly affects the middle class.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 4:46:01 PM

Arpig

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quote:

can people actually live on $10 an hour?

Not really, you can survive, but that's about it.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 4:56:11 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

To those who think that every small business can afford this and other mandates, why not just make the minimum wage $15.00 an hour.? Sock it to those greedy business owners.

If a business cannot afford to pay its employees, it needs to either find out what is wrong, or close its doors. Food has escalated, gas and heat, clothes... almost everything has hit hard in this economy. Then, you get a boss who gets pissy because your tired when you have to work two jobs to make ends meet and your exhausted at the end of the week. For so long labor was a relatively cheap cost for businesses as everything else went up and up.

When i started nursing in 93, the place i worked paid us 15 an hour. wasnt bad money back then, not too many complained, and we got merit raises. when they started paying the new grads more money in 95, they neglected to raise the existing, experienced nurses wages. suddenly, new grads were making what nurses who had been in the field for a few years were making less. no wonder why the nurses started leaving and striking.

Now, a question... how many of you could live on 7.25 a hour?

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 5:05:18 PM

beargonewild

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MMercurial

It is so funny -- tragic, but funny! -- to read comments by people without an economics background and/or who have never run a business!!!!!

What a hoot!

All you minimum wage lovers: Go hire some folks. Find out how it works! I mean, how you interview, fill out all the forms, spend your time figuring all the taxes to withhold, figuring which fucking signs to post, figuring out how to pay the worker's compensation insurance (especially you roofers -- gotta luv that 40% of wages!) -- train 'em and watch 'em go work for someone else, when when they came to you, they were worth NEGATIVE $75 an hour to you, because you had to slow down what you do, to train them, so your own productivity was cut in half.....

I hire a high school kid, I almost have to teach him to wipe his nose. And that's worth $7 an hour? Not!

Minimum wage hurts those with the least skills. But you dodo birds don't care about facts -- you just care about your FEELINGS, and since you WISH they were worth more, they must be!

Those of us in business, do not fire people because it gives us jollies.
We do not hire people at minimum wage because we think they are worth more.
Wake up!

They are hurting the LEAST EMPLOYABLE, the VERY MOST.

Oh -- and yeah -- businessmen are so prophetic -- they all KNEW the mortgage market was screwed up and about to deliver a 10 megaton nuclear warhead to our markets years before the existence of such a problem was known by the general public.

Wow! Let's give them Nobel Prizes! As a class! All businessmen, stand up, and get your honors for knowing everything was going to crater, but you told nobody else about it!

Excuse me?????? Isn't one of the basic principles of business based on supply and demand of a product???? I own my own business and have for 4 years now, I know I am not able to pay for a part time worker because what I supply is not a product geared towards mass consumption....it is geared to a select market. Logic thus dictates that I operate my business along that guideline...period. Maybe if the larger businesses use that common sense then the economy wouldn't in such a bad financial state.
It is plain common sense garnered from years of working for others and is now being applied to how I run my business. You want the perks of being a business owner then you have to accept those strings which is part and parcel to a business ownership.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 5:49:47 PM

stella41b

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MMercurial

It is so funny -- tragic, but funny! -- to read comments by people without an economics background and/or who have never run a business!!!!!

What a hoot!

All you minimum wage lovers: Go hire some folks. Find out how it works! I mean, how you interview, fill out all the forms, spend your time figuring all the taxes to withhold, figuring which fucking signs to post, figuring out how to pay the worker's compensation insurance (especially you roofers -- gotta luv that 40% of wages!) -- train 'em and watch 'em go work for someone else, when when they came to you, they were worth NEGATIVE $75 an hour to you, because you had to slow down what you do, to train them, so your own productivity was cut in half.....

I hire a high school kid, I almost have to teach him to wipe his nose. And that's worth $7 an hour? Not!

Minimum wage hurts those with the least skills. But you dodo birds don't care about facts -- you just care about your FEELINGS, and since you WISH they were worth more, they must be!

Those of us in business, do not fire people because it gives us jollies.
We do not hire people at minimum wage because we think they are worth more.
Wake up!

They are hurting the LEAST EMPLOYABLE, the VERY MOST.

Oh -- and yeah -- businessmen are so prophetic -- they all KNEW the mortgage market was screwed up and about to deliver a 10 megaton nuclear warhead to our markets years before the existence of such a problem was known by the general public.

Wow! Let's give them Nobel Prizes! As a class! All businessmen, stand up, and get your honors for knowing everything was going to crater, but you told nobody else about it!

Well if it really sucks that bad I'm sure there's business opportunities in China, Bangladesh and Sierra Leone. Or how about Russia, where you can actually get away with hiring people and not paying them?

As for the bit about people not knowing about business without an economic background that's soooo funny.

All you need to run a business is a desire to make money, be self-employed, have decent social skills and some good ideas.

As for the whining about the high school student, well I didn't know jack shit whilst in school, I'm pretty sure you didn't either. And actually, you did hire him of your own choice.

Nobody made you hire him. Nobody kidnapped you and forced you to run a business.

Human labour costs, employees are not meal tickets or charities. Either you hire and deal with the responsibilities or you don't and you do the work yourself.

It's complete freedom of choice. If you're not happy running a business or employing people then maybe you need to consider employment..

..or maybe even welfare. That way you get money without needing to hire people or do anything at all.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 5:58:39 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissJanice2

This new minimum wage law sucks. Since it has been implimented, our company has cut every one down to four days.
I am getting 20 hours weekly, and I have a house. Not only that, I live in a state where manufacturing has been hit very hard, and there are no other jobs to go to work.
I am stuck.
I guess my final destination will be the big W!.

Best Wishes,

Mistress_Jan

Somethinng about your post has nibbled at me all day, and i finally realized what it was. your working 4 days a week, for a total of 20 hours. ummm... you work only 5 hours a day? how much do you make an hour that 5 hours can make that big of an impact? im not belittling you or what you do. someone who makes 25 an hour, well... yeah... i can see how that would be a drastic change to lose 125 a week. but, for someone making 7 an hour.. thats 35 dollars... yeah... its gonna hurt, but you cant pay the rent with 35 dollars either.

And, frankly, i would go sign up for the big W as you called it. pride be damned, take care of you, sure as hell looks like no one else will.

and im sorry you are going through this.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/9/2009 6:00:16 PM >

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 5:59:01 PM

MissJanice2

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My entire point about starting this thread is that minium wage hikes only hurt everyone. First thing to start up is inflaction. Look at gas prices right now. The second thing is the economy slows even more. Look at retail sales. And if you are wondering why I went into retail at the age of 50, there is not a whole lot going on around here. No one can survive on minimum wage, and no one can survive on $10.00 per hour either.
We need serious change from the so called politicians in Washington. I suggest they leave town.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 6:02:12 PM

Lucylastic

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If you dont wanna pay minimum wage to a human being do the damn work yourself.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 6:11:30 PM

MissJanice2

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Sucks, doesn't it?

Respectfully, Mistress_Jan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissJanice2

This new minimum wage law sucks. Since it has been implimented, our company has cut every one down to four days.
I am getting 20 hours weekly, and I have a house. Not only that, I live in a state where manufacturing has been hit very hard, and there are no other jobs to go to work.
I am stuck.
I guess my final destination will be the big W!.

Best Wishes,

Mistress_Jan

Somethinng about your post has nibbled at me all day, and i finally realized what it was. your working 4 days a week, for a total of 20 hours. ummm... you work only 5 hours a day? how much do you make an hour that 5 hours can make that big of an impact? im not belittling you or what you do. someone who makes 25 an hour, well... yeah... i can see how that would be a drastic change to lose 125 a week. but, for someone making 7 an hour.. thats 35 dollars... yeah... its gonna hurt, but you cant pay the rent with 35 dollars either.

And, frankly, i would go sign up for the big W as you called it. pride be damned, take care of you, sure as hell looks like no one else will.

and im sorry you are going through this.

< Message edited by MissJanice2 -- 8/9/2009 6:16:27 PM >

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 6:24:38 PM

tazzygirl

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huh!

maybe im the only one who thinks this doesnt add up

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 6:25:56 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Sure. I worked on two assumptions.
1) The majority of minimum wage jobs are in small businesses or franchise operations.
2) The majority of small businesses or franchise operations are owned by what can be called middle class people.
So if these assumptions are correct, then raising the minimum wage will cost mostly middle class business owners.
From there, consider the following; the minimum wage is effectively the same as a government run low wage subsidy (where the government would supplement your income if you made to little). However,in the case of the minimum wage, instead of the government taxing the employer and then sending a cheque to the employee,the employer pays the surcharge directly to the employee. If you look at it this way,one could consider the minimum wage to effectively be a form of payroll tax.
Thus it can be seen as a payroll tax that mostly affects the middle class.

That's a bit of a stretch.

What you are essentially saying, if I understand you correctly, is that businesses being required to pay what can not even be considered a living wage is a form of taxation for the business.

I'm sorry, but if there are ma and pa businesses operating on such a shoestring budget then they need to realize they would be better off closing shop and going to work for someone else.

If they cannot afford to pay their employees a whopping $15K a year then it is not a realistic enterprise.

Not to mention the fact that what you claim about government subsidy is not true. Do you honestly think that even a single person could get by on that amount without assistance?

So, in essence, by not mandating a livable wage the government is subsidizing the employer and employee.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 8/9/2009 6:34:04 PM >

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 6:28:41 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

minimum wage hikes only hurt everyone. First thing to start up is inflation. Look at gas prices right now.

You're seriously claiming the minimum wage is pushing up gasoline prices?

Must be all that minimum wage labor in the refineries, oil rigs and trucking industry.

Good to know, though, that all the other serious economic causes aren't responsible.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 7:10:16 PM

MissJanice2

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Yes, the increase helped with gas prices. They just started going up again because they have to pay their people mimium wage as well or a little better.

What do you do, own a oil company or something as to that effect? You must be rich, or just bored maybe.

Best Wishes,

Mistress_Jan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

minimum wage hikes only hurt everyone. First thing to start up is inflation. Look at gas prices right now.

You're seriously claiming the minimum wage is pushing up gasoline prices?

Must be all that minimum wage labor in the refineries, oil rigs and trucking industry.

Good to know, though, that all the other serious economic causes aren't responsible.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/9/2009 7:25:02 PM

servantforuse

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There should be no minimum wage at all. If someone invests in and owns a company he should be free to pay his employees what he wants to pay them. If he doesn't pay a fair wage he won't have anyone working for him. They will go elsewhere. If he has good employees, he will pay them to keep them there.

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