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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/11/2009 5:18:06 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

You say I don’t offer a solution. That is because there are no solutions – only trade offs. My question: what makes the government (concentrated power – and we all know where that leads) a fairer arbitrator than a free people?


In reality, I am wholly uncertain that the government -is- a better arbitrator, but technically, it -is- supposed to be the voice of the free people. As such, the "government", technically, IS you, and me, and Joe Blow with the hungry kids, and my sick companion... "Of the people... by the people... for the people..." so technically, the voice of the free people IS reflected, through the electoral process, in the government.

See, everyone acts like the government is some 3rd-party entity... a stranger, stealing from our pockets and giving what it finds to someone else -- but we ARE the government, and if we're not, then I strongly believe that it is our own apathy that put us in that position.

Purely pragmatically, I find that our current government is a profound disappointment to me -- but it is all that we have, and its PURPOSE is to serve its constituency -- if it isn't doing that, then it is up to -us-, the constituents, to make that happen.

The American people chose last November -- then, instead of seeing the choice through and standing up for the concepts that they wanted, they just sat back down in their easy-chairs and waited for change to happen without bothering their little corner of the world.

Am I disillusioned with the current American Monarchy -- you bet your ass. But I haven't been sitting on my hands about it, either. I've been active, and have bugged the crud out of my representatives to the point where I'm betting that they don't want to hear another thing out of me and mine -- but that is part of what is -required- so that the government that IS the voice of the people can -be- the voice of the people.

The reason that things are the way they are, and special interests own our voice is because so few of us have paid attention for the past 50 years. My solution is to use the tools we have to do what good I can, and that INCLUDES the government that I am paying for, and which was -created- to make sure that I -have- a voice, despite the reality that I am not one of the Middle-of-the-Road Americans.

Do I think that the Government needs to stick its nose in some of this stuff? Well, now that I've had LOTS of time to hash it out in my head, my answer is an unequivocal YES, because my government is supposed to speak for -all- of its constituents and protect and serve -all- of its constituents, and that includes the damned poor, homeless, uninsured, underpaid, pagan, gay, kinky members just as much as it does the corporate, gold-washed, squeaky-clean, moralistic, fundamentalist, green-power, ivory-tower members. Democracy does -not- mean "majority rules", even though that's how its' been treated for far too long! Democracy means that -someone- gives a voice to the people who would, otherwise, not have one... and makes it -stick-.

Yes, I know... let the name-calling begin... "Idealist!" "Socialist!" "Heathen!"... so be it.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/11/2009 5:20:39 PM >


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/11/2009 9:57:19 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

How does your viewpoint stop the exploitation that occurs without a minimum wage, or should exploitation be allowed ?


I.O.U. one rant on on liberty in modern western civilization.

It's too late for me to get into it now.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/11/2009 9:58:33 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Someone's right will always interfere with someone elses right. No matter what law, what rule, what equation you use, someone will always complain that their rights were steped on.


This is true. It always comes down to: who decides?


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/11/2009 10:04:57 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

"Idealist!" "Socialist!" "Heathen!"


Idealist? Definitely

Socialist? Uhm… maybe. Depends on who you talk to.

Heathen? I wouldn’t go that far. Unless you want to get into a Spanish Inquisition scene. I get to be the Dom, though.

As for the rest, I’ll get back to you on it.


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/12/2009 12:57:33 AM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Someone's right will always interfere with someone elses right. No matter what law, what rule, what equation you use, someone will always complain that their rights were steped on.


This is true. It always comes down to: who decides?



And ultimately, the answer is always "whoever has the power to."

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/12/2009 4:54:58 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
quote:

But businesses that pay low wages are depending on government to solve their problems. Low wages are being subsidized with tax dollars in the form of assistance programs for low-wage workers - food stamps, daycare assistance, housing assistance, medical assistance, the Earned Income Credit...

So let's lower taxes so people can have more of their money to afford such things, pay better wages, etc.


We've tried that. Tax cuts don't lead to better wages for low income workers. They do often lead to cuts in the programs that low-income workers rely on, leaving those folks worse off.

I think that it would work the other way, though. Pay better wages and fewer people will need to rely on govt programs to make ends meet. We can cut down on spending for those programs, which would mean lower taxes. We might even end up with more people paying taxes, which would decrease the individual tax burden for all of us.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/12/2009 8:25:37 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

In reality, I am wholly uncertain that the government -is- a better arbitrator, but technically, it -is- supposed to be the voice of the free people. As such, the "government", technically, IS you, and me, and Joe Blow with the hungry kids, and my sick companion... "Of the people... by the people... for the people..." so technically, the voice of the free people IS reflected, through the electoral process, in the government.


Technically. But government is concentrated power – always a dangerous thing. That is why I favor a limited government and why I get ornery whenever I encounter a mindset (real or perceived, I’ll grant) who response to every problem is “we need a law for this or against that.”

quote:

See, everyone acts like the government is some 3rd-party entity... a stranger, stealing from our pockets and giving what it finds to someone else -- but we ARE the government, and if we're not, then I strongly believe that it is our own apathy that put us in that position.


Throughout history – it seems to me – the vast majority have been apathetic so long as the were fed and entertained.

quote:

Purely pragmatically, I find that our current government is a profound disappointment to me -- but it is all that we have, and its PURPOSE is to serve its constituency -- if it isn't doing that, then it is up to -us-, the constituents, to make that happen.


It is a profound disappointment to me too (but not a surprise, giving the nature of the human race). The bugaboo, of course, is that different people have different ideas of what “serve” means.

quote:

The American people chose last November -- then, instead of seeing the choice through and standing up for the concepts that they wanted, they just sat back down in their easy-chairs and waited for change to happen without bothering their little corner of the world.


No, actually, some of the American people chose last November. I think much of the apathy comes form the fact that nothing really ever changes. The parties switch back and forth between who is in power and subsequently their views on certain topics. “Dissent is un-American! And… what? We lost the election? Er… I mean… “Dissent is the highest form of patriotism!” People just get worn out by the constant hypocrisy and bullshit.

quote:

Am I disillusioned with the current American Monarchy -- you bet your ass. But I haven't been sitting on my hands about it, either. I've been active, and have bugged the crud out of my representatives to the point where I'm betting that they don't want to hear another thing out of me and mine -- but that is part of what is -required- so that the government that IS the voice of the people can -be- the voice of the people.

The reason that things are the way they are, and special interests own our voice is because so few of us have paid attention for the past 50 years. My solution is to use the tools we have to do what good I can, and that INCLUDES the government that I am paying for, and which was -created- to make sure that I -have- a voice, despite the reality that I am not one of the Middle-of-the-Road Americans.


It’s good that you are involved and I applaud that but I am more of a believer in local action. For example: poor kids going hungry upsets decent people. Such decent people can pour their energy into demanding a Federal response (essentially saying: “We demand that you force somebody else to do something!”) with all of its attendant political posturing and corruption or you can take local action to organize food drives, community gardens, etc. There is an old bumper sticker saying: Think Globally, Act Locally. I’d say that’s about half right. I think we should start out by thinking locally. Perhaps if everybody did that (right after monkeys fly out of my butt) the world would need so much government intervention.


quote:

Do I think that the Government needs to stick its nose in some of this stuff? Well, now that I've had LOTS of time to hash it out in my head, my answer is an unequivocal YES, because my government is supposed to speak for -all- of its constituents and protect and serve -all- of its constituents, and that includes the damned poor, homeless, uninsured, underpaid, pagan, gay, kinky members just as much as it does the corporate, gold-washed, squeaky-clean, moralistic, fundamentalist, green-power, ivory-tower members. Democracy does -not- mean "majority rules", even though that's how its' been treated for far too long! Democracy means that -someone- gives a voice to the people who would, otherwise, not have one... and makes it -stick-.


But if the government makes its stick then you don’t have a democracy anymore. Ultimately I’m with Winston Churchill that democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others.


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/12/2009 8:43:48 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

It’s good that you are involved and I applaud that but I am more of a believer in local action. For example: poor kids going hungry upsets decent people. Such decent people can pour their energy into demanding a Federal response (essentially saying: “We demand that you force somebody else to do something!”) with all of its attendant political posturing and corruption or you can take local action to organize food drives, community gardens, etc. There is an old bumper sticker saying: Think Globally, Act Locally. I’d say that’s about half right. I think we should start out by thinking locally. Perhaps if everybody did that (right after monkeys fly out of my butt) the world would need so much government intervention.


You're right, I'm also a strong proponent of "Think Locally, Act Locally". One challenge that we -are- facing, though, is that so many of the institutions that we must interact with to get anything done are no longer local. I've said for -years- that I think it would be a good thing to disband a central government and restore governance to local (nothing higher than state) levels, with the greatest responsibility being at the deep local level. Unfortunately, that would essentially eliminate a whole segment of parasites, and parasites, as a whole, are -extremely- resistant to purging.

quote:

But if the government makes its stick then you don’t have a democracy anymore. Ultimately I’m with Winston Churchill that democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others.


Yeah, personally, I'm more inclined to liking the concept of constitutional monarchy, but every form of centralization of policy has more problems than it is worth most days... honestly, there are some days that I swear that democracy is nothing more than government -by- the ignorant, -of- the ignorant, -for- the ignorant, and that we might as well just shoot ourselves now and get it over with quickly.

DC

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/12/2009 8:47:28 AM >


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/12/2009 8:39:52 PM   
xiam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
....labor is a resource, not a cost, and a key component of growing and sustaining a successful operation....


Exactly.  Payroll should be a last resort in cost cutting measures, particularly when it affects the lowest paid workers.  Cutting hours to save 30 bucks a week doesn't seem like a big deal to a manager whose salary is 4x more than their subordinates.  Losing thirty bucks a week is HUGE to that employee, just as an extra $28 can make all the difference in the world. 

Looking at COGS, purchasing, inventory, overhead, and internal use items is a much more sustainable, and the long run, more profitable way for a business owner or manager to affect the bottom line.

We need to learn to nickle and dime our vendors and suppliers rather than doing it to our employees.


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/12/2009 8:42:02 PM   
tazzygirl


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or maybe... just maybe.... the boss can forgo that new car/vacation/ect for a year if their company isnt producing to performance

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/12/2009 8:54:15 PM   
xiam


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Agreed!  The disproportion of wealth between the top of the corporate ladder and the bottom is appalling.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/12/2009 9:05:38 PM   
VanIsleKnight


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quote:

02/01/1968 $1.60 -- $9.80
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

Just to keep things in perspective, $10/hr., 40 hours/wk for 50 weeks is $20,000/yr.

Now, I'm single, live in the country, frugally, grow a lot of my own food--and I certainly couldn't live on that. Hell, I SAVE more than that each year for retirement--and I have health insurance.

It's not an outrageous wage, even for unskilled labor.

Let alone health care......or dependents.



*sighs*

I had a to fight and work in shitty jobs for 5 years just to get that.  Experience was a helluva lot more valuable then that ever will be.  So looking forward to nursing. =/


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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/13/2009 8:17:23 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

We need to learn to nickle and dime our vendors and suppliers rather than doing it to our employees.
Because, of course, the vendors and suppliers are staffed by robots and don't have any employees affected by nickle and diming them.

quote:

I swear that democracy is nothing more than government -by- the ignorant, -of- the ignorant, -for- the ignorant
Couldn't agree more!

An apt description of US politics ever since the McCain-Feingold eliminated the possibility of unseating any incumbent. Since then, elections are determined by PAC and special interest groups who 'invest' in candidates expecting a return on that investment once their person is in office. It results in a an ignorant electorate responding to target marketing produced by slick advertising firms. McCain-Feingold eliminated the possibility of changing the status quo; and established the 'ruling class'.

A "bi-partisan" Bill, that guaranteed never ending partisan based politics. Not so much focused on what's best for the country, but instead focused on the PAC interests who manipulate the ignorant masses through buzz-word marketing. A good rule of thumb; any "bi-partisan" Bill is not in the best interest of the general public. Then again, neither is party specific myopic vision.

The special interests rely on voters to not see the obvious solution - vote out every incumbent. It will never happen because no matter how much anyone complains about the disconnect between campaign rhetoric and post election results, its always some other party or other 'special interest' to blame; "Not MY guy!", "Not MY party!".

Never was that more obvious than now. A filibuster proof Congressional majority for the same party that holds the Presidency. Yet the Afghanistan War(?) has escalated and kills more US soldiers every day, withdraw from Iran is as indefinite as ever, Gitmo is still an offshore prison for un-tried individuals, $787 Billion was paid out to facilitate executive bonus payouts, and not one new long term private sector jobs program has been implemented. However, there has obviously been a lot of investment return to the Banking PACs, Insurance Industry PACs, Global Warming Religion PACs, Military Contractor PACs, among others. I guess if you directly benefit from any of those, philosophically or economically, next time you have an opportunity to go into the voting both you'll vote for "MY guy!" again. When you do appreciate, despite the rhetoric, when you do so you are voting for NO "CHANGE!"?

Change will only come by voting 'NO!' at every opportunity, at every level of government. Vote against every incumbent at every voting opportunity; continuing to do so until those elected begin to represent US and become "OUR guy!"

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RE: Minimum Wage Rant - 8/13/2009 12:12:42 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

quote:

:

We need to learn to nickle and dime our vendors and suppliers rather than doing it to our employees.


Because, of course, the vendors and suppliers are staffed by robots and don't have any employees affected by nickle and diming them.


And this is what I really don't get about -any- of this... maybe it's just me... but why are we talking about 'nickling and diming' -anyone- here? Isn't the entire system dependent upon every aspect... those employees who aren't making a living wage certainly can't afford to go out and purchase a new Whitchamajigget as costs for basic living keep climbing but real-dollar values of wages keep dropping... which means that the Whichamajigget manufacturer isn't meeting his sales projections, and is having to reduce the materials he buys and worry about his payments to his suppliers, who then don't make -their- sales projections in Whitchamajigget parts, and have to reduce orders to -their- suppliers and maybe even cut staff, who now no longer have the disposable income to go buy their -own- Whitchamajigget that they were saving up for...

I just don't understand how people can be so short-sighted about all of this stuff. It just boggles my poor little mind.

DC

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/13/2009 12:13:08 PM >


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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/13/2009 1:11:49 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

How does your viewpoint stop the exploitation that occurs without a minimum wage, or should exploitation be allowed ?


Okay, I decided not to rant (I’m feeling too mellow right now) but I will say this:

What stops the exploitation now? I mean, here we have a minimum wage law and all the employers have banded together and now none of them will pay more than minimum wage. We powerless peons are completely helpless against them.

I’m being sarcastic, obviously, but I think the point is relevant. What stops businesses from not paying above the minimum wage? Why do some people get paid more? The answer is multi-faceted (labor unions, market forces, media exposure, the fact that not everybody who owns a business is a greedy evil bastard, etc) and they are the same reasons eliminating the minimum wage law will not result in everybody earning only fifty cents an hour. Would some low or no skilled jobs end up paying less than the current minimum? Probably. But I think that a lot more of such jobs that don’t currently exist would come into existence and that – despite what some people think – is a good thing.

I reiterate: Not every job in existence has to be a “living” wage job. If we insist on such then we lock a lot of people out of the economy. I can see no economic or moral reason to do that.


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/13/2009 2:09:35 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Not every job in existence has to be a “living” wage job. If we insist on such then we lock a lot of people out of the economy. I can see no economic or moral reason to do that.


Enter Joe the Dishwasher. Joe's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But he works hard, shows up to work everyday, very likeable guy. Washing dishes is probably the height of his skills.

He should go through life without a living wage. Or health insurance. Why?



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/13/2009 2:10:31 PM >

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/14/2009 9:36:03 AM   
Termyn8or


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Market forces MM. The divisor is how many people can do the job.

In a restaurant you have X amount of sales made for you by X number of employees. Can the guy cook, or at least watch the food if the cook has to take a break ? Can he run the register in a pinch ? All these things need to be taken into consideration.

And consider this, no matter what my status or what I make, technically my boss is a failure. Why ? Because he bought himself a job. Sure he has a nice house and boat, all that. But he has to be there every day because he can't delegate. Now at a place I used to work a long time ago, that guy is a success. He can go traipsing off on vacation for a month and the shop runs itself. When this guy leaves, several important things grind to a halt. I have been gradually starting to make some of the decisions in his absences, but I can't make them all. In that sense he has not succeeded.

The idea of going into business is that you made the investment and took the risk. If you make the right decisions it is reasonable to expect a return on your investment. Then if times get tough, you might have to come up with some money to make payroll. All part of the game. Actually the whole idea of paying by the hour is not the greatest, but it's all we have in most cases. Sure you could take all the money pulled in on a given day and distribute it equitably among all who helped make it. But with an hourly wage people can count on a relatively constant pay every week and it works out better for many. But even if you did pass out most of the money, how is it determined who gets how much ? Of course you do, and if you want to be fair, those who produce more get more. That would take alot of oversight and analasys. A big pain in the ass nobody usually wants to deal with.

T

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/14/2009 11:33:04 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Enter Joe the Dishwasher. Joe's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But he works hard, shows up to work everyday, very likeable guy. Washing dishes is probably the height of his skills.

He should go through life without a living wage. Or health insurance. Why?


What if? What if? What if? What if?

If washing dishes is the height of Joe’s skills then he is probably mentally retarded and if not under the care of family then will likely be a ward of the state and living in a group home.


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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/14/2009 11:35:05 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Enter Joe the Dishwasher. Joe's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But he works hard, shows up to work everyday, very likeable guy. Washing dishes is probably the height of his skills.

He should go through life without a living wage. Or health insurance. Why?


What if? What if? What if? What if?

If washing dishes is the height of Joe’s skills then he is probably mentally retarded and if not under the care of family then will likely be a ward of the state and living in a group home.
Or get backing from a PAC and make a successful run for the US Senate.

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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/14/2009 11:45:25 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Or get backing from a PAC and make a successful run for the US Senate.


I'd vote for him. It be nice to have a Senator with a useful skill.



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