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RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/14/2009 12:22:18 PM

Ialdabaoth

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Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Enter Joe the Dishwasher. Joe's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But he works hard, shows up to work everyday, very likeable guy. Washing dishes is probably the height of his skills.

He should go through life without a living wage. Or health insurance. Why?

What if? What if? What if? What if?

If washing dishes is the height of Joe’s skills then he is probably mentally retarded and if not under the care of family then will likely be a ward of the state and living in a group home.

You mean on the street - that's what we do to them since Reagan dismantled the public health care system. And under the care of his family? What if none of them can afford to take care of him?

EDIT:

Look, let's be realistic here. Under the system we have set up, we have made the economic decision that several million people simply don't deserve to live. The Democrats refuse to believe that it's true, and the Republicans refuse to admit that it's true, but there we are.

People like our hypothetical "Joe" are only good for parts, and we aren't even using them for that - primarily because the Democrats refuse to believe it and the Republicans refuse to admit it.

We could fix this. We're the most powerful nation on Earth, and we could afford to clothe, feed, house and care for every last one of us with resources to spare - but we won't, because the Puritan Work Ethic says that Joe deserves a hellish life of slowly starving to death in a blind panic, followed by a hellish afterlife of an eternity of infinite torment - all for not having God's favor.

A big part of the problem is that we've moved past our overt Puritan beliefs, but not the underlying psychology that they used to support. So we as a culture enjoy eating well while Joe starves, but most of us have lost the philosophical rhetoric to justify why. Calvin would be spinning in his grave.

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 8/14/2009 12:27:10 PM >

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 181

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/14/2009 2:26:39 PM

Archer

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Someone needs to say this because it's been ignored up to this point.

NOBODY should be attempting to survive on their own on minimum wage.
That's what room mates and the whole 4 people sharing an apartment is for.

Students, second jobs and the retired, up until the change in minimum wage constituted the vast majority of minimum wage earning jobs.

With the change I'm sure that has expanded the number of folks making the minimum, because lord know the folks who were making above the minimum didn't get the raise that those making less than the new minimum got, now we have a larger pool of folks who make the minimum wage. So the old stats will have to be updated.

If after 6 months and likely less you are still at minimum wage then something is wrong either with you or your employer.
I worked for minimum wage for less than 90 days of my adult life, and that included working through the recession of the 90's.

A to the OP the fact is the company obviousl is trying very hard to spread the misery of the recession instead of just laying off the workers flat out.
Something else nobody seemed to notice through all these pages.

The management faced a choice even before the wage hike mandated it seems Recession means slowed sales means reduced total hours needed of labor.

Option 1 lay off enough workers to get down to fighting weight and keep the rest at 40 hrs

Option 2 Keep all the workers and reduce the hours of everyone

Seems that that evil old greedy boss is facing two bad options and is trying to keep as many folks at least working a little bit as they can since their are so few jobs out there to be had. Oh that just makes me mad when they do such despicable things as trying to keep as many folks working as they can.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 182

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/14/2009 2:56:27 PM

Ialdabaoth

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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Seems that that evil old greedy boss is facing two bad options and is trying to keep as many folks at least working a little bit as they can since their are so few jobs out there to be had. Oh that just makes me mad when they do such despicable things as trying to keep as many folks working as they can.

I'm not seeing many people argue that it's the "evil old greedy boss"'s fault. Fuck, the system is bad all around.

And yeah, if you're at minimum wage, chances are there's something wrong with you. But that's not always something you can change. What then?

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 183

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 1:27:53 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

You mean on the street - that's what we do to them since Reagan dismantled the public health care system.

No, I mean in a group home. I don’t know what the situation is where you live but I can think a at least five group homes (three of them privately run) in my area alone – and that’s just for the mentally disabled; there are also group homes for recovering alcoholics/drug addicts, juvenile delinquents (one less though, since two of the little darlings murdered their counselor), etc.

quote:

And under the care of his family? What if none of them can afford to take care of him?

Well, then, he either becomes a ward of the State or he’s up Shits Creek with out a paddle. This is still nothing more than “what ifs?”, demanding perfection where none is to be had.

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Post #: 184

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 1:57:13 PM

Ialdabaoth

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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
there are also group homes for recovering alcoholics/drug addicts, juvenile delinquents (one less though, since two of the little darlings murdered their counselor), etc.

Doesn't sound like a very good alternative to the street, then. I think we can do better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Well, then, he either becomes a ward of the State or he’s up Shits Creek with out a paddle. This is still nothing more than “what ifs?”, demanding perfection where none is to be had.

The old "if we can't make it perfect, we shouldn't even try" BS never really held much weight for me. I'm demanding that we strive for the best we can do, which I hope is a far sight better than "if your family can't deal with you, tough shit".

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 185

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 2:05:05 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
And yeah, if you're at minimum wage, chances are there's something wrong with you. But that's not always something you can change. What then?

I'm not sure that being paid the minimum wage necessarily means that there is something wrong with someone, but there is something wrong with a system that relies on people having to work two or even three jobs a week in order to just pay their bills. This society relies on people being paid near slave wages: enough punishing them already for being poorly educated, because it's quite obvious that someone, somewhere, is profiteering from these abysmal wages.

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Post #: 186

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 2:16:50 PM

Ialdabaoth

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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
And yeah, if you're at minimum wage, chances are there's something wrong with you. But that's not always something you can change. What then?

I'm not sure that being paid the minimum wage necessarily means that there is something wrong with someone, but there is something wrong with a system that relies on people having to work two or even three jobs a week in order to just pay their bills. This society relies on people being paid near slave wages: enough punishing them already for being poorly educated, because it's quite obvious that someone, somewhere, is profiteering from these abysmal wages.

Well, yes. And chances are, that someone is us.

Ever shop at the Gap, or Abercrombie and Fitch? Ever buy fruit at the supermarket? Ever buy anything at Wall-Mart? Then you're benefitting from the largess of wage-slavery, and often pretty vile and blatant wage-slavery.

The thing is, America's prosperity has always been built on the backs of the disenfranchised. We sell people the "American Dream", but it really doesn't work that way - it's far more accurately a giant Lotto. "You gotta play to win", but 99% of the players will never even break even.

We could provide everyone in this country with a decent standard of living, and it wouldn't even require more effort than we're putting out now - hell, in most cases it'd require putting out less. But we would have to prune away a lot of the detrius that's grown up around our current way of doing things.

Heck, if half of our current farm subsidies shifted away from Corn and towards properly managed organically-grown hydroponics, we could put an effective end to hunger and obesity in this country within the decade.

If half of our current military budget was devoted to properly managed domestic engineering projects, we could put an effective end to homelessness, give everyone free wi-fi, and become carbon-neutral in this country within the decade.

If our education system shifted away from test scores and towards integrated quality-of-life lessons, we could stop being the world's largest third-world nation.

But all of that smacks of "socialism" and "government control". Worse, it's giving free hand-outs to poor people, and poor people by definition do not deserve free hand-outs. I mean, just look at them. All dirty and dark and shifty-eyed. Sure is a good thing we're nothing like them.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 187

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 2:32:02 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth
If half of our current military budget was devoted to properly managed domestic engineering projects, we could put an effective end to homelessness, give everyone free wi-fi, and become carbon-neutral in this country within the decade.

If only... the military budget is a fucking shame, there's not other way to put it.

quote:

If our education system shifted away from test scores and towards integrated quality-of-life lessons, we could stop being the world's largest third-world nation.

My stepdaughter is apparently a top ranking student: at fourteen, she has no clue where England is and seems to believe Europe is a country. Need I say more? It's beyond appalling.

quote:

But all of that smacks of "socialism" and "government control". Worse, it's giving free hand-outs to poor people, and poor people by definition do not deserve free hand-outs. I mean, just look at them. All dirty and dark and shifty-eyed. Sure is a good thing we're nothing like them.

Apparently, many in America still believe that individualism is the thing that works best for them (even when it's proven not to). Personally, I see nothing wrong with giving 'free handouts' to poor people: and I'm not even a Christian. It's very strange that so many Christians are so hell bent against helping their fellow-man.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 8/17/2009 2:34:00 PM >

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Post #: 188

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 2:49:33 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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Hey, I want to start a country with you guys!!!! I already have a proposal for the school system -- I presented it to open a private experimental school here in Texas, but it was shot down when we tried to get land to put it on -- too non-conformist, and no uniforms, and custom curriculums and incorporate physical education, a full apprenticeship program in 9 areas of study, art, music... why, from the way the locals went ballistic, you'd think I was a commie or something.

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 8/17/2009 2:53:01 PM >

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(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 189

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 3:07:48 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Apparently, many in America still believe that individualism is the thing that works best for them (even when it's proven not to). Personally, I see nothing wrong with giving 'free handouts' to poor people: and I'm not even a Christian. It's very strange that so many Christians are so hell bent against helping their fellow-man.

My recent squabbles with my roommate illustrate the difference in philosophy.

My roommate is strongly of the attitude that, if you do things for other people, they'll eventually rope you into having to keep doing things for them.

You can see my bent from my posts.

Well, the roommate refuses to do his share of housework, because he feels the other roommate isn't doing her fair share of housework. So I'm pretty much doing the housework for the whole house.

His response: "See? That's what you get."

So, I respond with "watch this", and stop doing the housework for a week. Sure enough, the sink fills with roaches, the lawn gets overrun with the neighbors' trash, and the pool turns a lovely shade of green-black.

His response to this: "Oh, hell, now look how much more work that's going to be for you to clean up!"

Then I show him our landlord's "we will evict you if you don't take care of the yard trash" notice, and he says "oh, fuck."

So, I explain that it's actually not possible for me to do it all myself, especially considering I'm currently injured, and I finally get him to help out, since it's that or be homeless.

He then starts bitching about how much easier this would be if I had kept up on it the week before.

My response: "Yes, exactly. If I'd kept up with maintenance last week, it'd just be the usual amount of work. If you'd helped last week, it would have been half that much work for each of us. It's not simply a matter of being taken advantage of; I'm doing more work this week with you helping out than I ever did by myself when you refused to help. I'm keeping the place cleaned not because I like being taken advantage of, but because I like things going to shit even less."

Sometimes, taking care of something that "should be" your neighbor's responsibility makes economic sense, from a rational self-interest perspective. Would it be nice if I could just play brinkmanship with my roommate until he decides to contribute his fair share? No, because I don't like living in a pig sty. This means cleaning up after my roommates, even though technically it's "their" trash.

And you know what? Health care and education work the same way. Free check-ups and immunizations make sense because of something called "herd immunity" - if my neighbors aren't sick, it means I won't catch anything from them.

Moreso, if my neighbors aren't sick, that means they can continue to be productive and happy. It means they have less to worry about. It means there's a better chance that they'll be nice neighbors, instead of mean, vicious, spiteful, selfish neighbors.

Yes, there are "bad apples" in every community - but the vast majority of short-sighted, selfish, and mean people are short-sighted, selfish and mean because they don't have enough resources, and they're afraid you're going to take what they do have away from them.

Even my roommates.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 190

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 3:09:01 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Hey, I want to start a country with you guys!!!! I already have a proposal for the school system -- I presented it to open a private experimental school here in Texas, but it was shot down when we tried to get land to put it on -- too non-conformist, and no uniforms, and custom curriculums and incorporate physical education, a full apprenticeship program in 9 areas of study, art, music... why, from the way the locals went ballistic, you'd think I was a commie or something.

... Are you serious? Because if you're not joking, I'm seriously considering a change in life direction over the next 2-3 years.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 191

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 3:13:06 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Hey, I want to start a country with you guys!!!! I already have a proposal for the school system -- I presented it to open a private experimental school here in Texas, but it was shot down when we tried to get land to put it on -- too non-conformist, and no uniforms, and custom curriculums and incorporate physical education, a full apprenticeship program in 9 areas of study, art, music... why, from the way the locals went ballistic, you'd think I was a commie or something.

I'll do work with you :-) .

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Post #: 192

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 3:29:06 PM

cornflakegirl

Posts: 183
Joined: 7/1/2009
From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Hey, I want to start a country with you guys!!!! I already have a proposal for the school system -- I presented it to open a private experimental school here in Texas, but it was shot down when we tried to get land to put it on -- too non-conformist, and no uniforms, and custom curriculums and incorporate physical education, a full apprenticeship program in 9 areas of study, art, music... why, from the way the locals went ballistic, you'd think I was a commie or something.

... Are you serious? Because if you're not joking, I'm seriously considering a change in life direction over the next 2-3 years.

Arizona is the place to do it, too. We are all about charter schools here. Something like that would be pretty cool.

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Post #: 193

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 3:34:01 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

My stepdaughter is apparently a top ranking student: at fourteen, she has no clue where England is and seems to believe Europe is a country. Need I say more? It's beyond appalling.

Government run, public school, by any chance? If so, its another anecdotal reference for bureaucratic failure suggesting a consistent result when the government is involved with any entity, industry, or social engineering effort.

quote:

Well, the roommate refuses to do his share of housework, because he feels the other roommate isn't doing her fair share of housework. So I'm pretty much doing the housework for the whole house

Let's apply similar consistency to the health care issue. I work out, eat decently, and take care of myself. Does that mean that I should go and make sure my neighbors are doing the same so we can all share in the positive income and generate "herd immunity"? I mean, if you're sitting on your ass and are a few hundred pounds overweight and develop adult onset diabetes that as a result of your life choices requires ongoing expensive medication is it the herd's responsibility? Should the herd have knocked on the door, investigated the refrigerator, and taken away the Klondike Bars?

As some point in everyone's life, they all had the same well kept yard, clean sink, and no roach body. They chose not to contribute to the maintenance. As long as they bore the consequence and insured themselves against the likely result I have no problem with observing the outcome and helping out if/when I can. But like your roommates, if they want me doing it all for them, they better be prepared to 'pay' for it by surrendering some of their slothful lifestyle. Not saying that I would do it that way, but a government who already decides you must wear a seatbelt, must not drive will drinking, decides which drugs are 'good' and which are 'bad'; will now be in a position that you are in as the chief care-giver. You think there will not be some behavior expectations?

If you answer is; "GREAT! We need the discipline! The government should be out there telling us what to eat, drink, and mandate group exercise in front of an age-appropriate televised two way transmission - than this health-care Bill is the perfect starting point for that potential result.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/17/2009 3:51:52 PM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 194

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 3:42:23 PM

Ialdabaoth

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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cornflakegirl
Arizona is the place to do it, too. We are all about charter schools here. Something like that would be pretty cool.

Well, I've been complaining about lack of purpose in my life...

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Post #: 195

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 3:45:53 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Government run, public school, by any chance? If so, its another anecdotal reference for bureaucratic failure suggesting a consistent result when the government is involved with any entity, industry, or social engineering effort.

Not necessarily.

Some government programs work quite well, although some people can always find ways to twist them around so they look like they're failing. Some government programs fail horribly - sometimes even by design, although some people can always find ways to prop them up.

Some private programs work quite well, too, although some people can always find ways to twist them around so they look like they're failing. And some private programs fail horribly - sometimes even by design, although some people can always find ways to prop them up.

There are no easy answers. It isn't "government bad, free market good" any more than it's "government good, free market bad". Instead, it should be "well crap, this isn't working, let's try a different approach!".

And even if something didn't work in one set of circumstances, doesn't mean it can't work in another. The converse, while terrifying, is also true: just because something has always worked before, is no guarnatee it will work here and now.

These aren't excuses to give up. They're just realities you have to remain aware of as you try to do the best you can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 196

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 6:40:25 PM

Musicmystery

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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

quote:

My stepdaughter is apparently a top ranking student: at fourteen, she has no clue where England is and seems to believe Europe is a country. Need I say more? It's beyond appalling.

Government run, public school, by any chance? If so, its another anecdotal reference for bureaucratic failure suggesting a consistent result when the government is involved with any entity, industry, or social engineering effort.

Of course, charter schools pay much better and have much smaller class size.

Run that one by the school board. Or the state legislature.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/17/2009 6:42:23 PM >

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Post #: 197

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 6:54:29 PM

servantforuse

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The money spent for public education is not the problem. Milwaukee has a drop out rate of nearly 35 % every year. The cost per student is just under $12,000 a year per student. If you won't get out of bed and go to school, you will be stuck at a minimum wage job. So be it.

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Post #: 198

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 6:56:39 PM

Ialdabaoth

Posts: 1073
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From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The money spent for public education is not the problem. Milwaukee has a drop out rate of nearly 35 % every year. The cost per student is just under $12,000 a year per student. If you won't get out of bed and go to school, you will be stuck at a minimum wage job. So be it.

And yet no one bothers to ask why some kids don't want to get out of bed and go to school. They just chalk it up to "you're lazy", or "you're poor white trash and will never amount to anything".

No one ever thinks that maybe some kids don't want to go to school, because they legitimately understand that school isn't preparing them for life? Maybe some kids don't want to go to school, because they're tired of being picked on and attacked, and no one doing anything about it? There's hundreds of good reasons why kids become drop-outs.

< Message edited by Ialdabaoth -- 8/17/2009 6:57:28 PM >

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Post #: 199

RE: Minimium Wage Rant - 8/17/2009 7:12:34 PM

servantforuse

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That's a bunch of BS. The kids that are not going to school don't get up in the morning and skip because public schools aren't preparing them for the future. They would rather walk the malls with their pants down to their ass lookinng cool. I worked in the inner city of Milwaukee for 18 years for a public utility. They don't want to go to school and mom ( dad isn't there ) don't give a crap either.

(in reply to Ialdabaoth)

Post #: 200

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