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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:30:54 AM   
Acer49


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Joined: 8/7/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ok....here's a question to chew upon.

According the the bible (we can stick with Jeudeo-Christianity), God is a bloodthirsty being who commands and/or commits genocide, is willing to kill scores of innocents and torture one who really loves him just to prove a point to another celestial creature, and who sentences most of the world's population to an eternal torture with no hope of redemption based on whether or not that person worships him in the manner he wishes to be worshiped. Given these facts (fact based on the holy books of the religions that support him), it can be argued that this God is either insane or evil.

My question is this: If it is true that this is a less than laudable being, is it still incumbent upon us to worship him because a) he created everything, b) he is the boss and/or c) because he will sentence us to eternal torture if we do not? In short, does a God (using the biblical definition of what God is) have to be good in order to be worshiped?

I'm interested in the opinions on this one.



I would like to know where in the bible, GOD is referred to in such a manner Chapter and verse please


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(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:35:46 AM   
DanaYielding


Posts: 72
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline 		How could anyone have free will without the ability to choose that which goes against?

< Message edited by DanaYielding -- 8/10/2009 8:36:14 AM >

(in reply to Acer49)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:39:05 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ok....here's a question to chew upon.

According the the bible (we can stick with Jeudeo-Christianity), God is a bloodthirsty being who commands and/or commits genocide, is willing to kill scores of innocents and torture one who really loves him just to prove a point to another celestial creature, and who sentences most of the world's population to an eternal torture with no hope of redemption based on whether or not that person worships him in the manner he wishes to be worshiped. Given these facts (fact based on the holy books of the religions that support him), it can be argued that this God is either insane or evil.

My question is this: If it is true that this is a less than laudable being, is it still incumbent upon us to worship him because a) he created everything, b) he is the boss and/or c) because he will sentence us to eternal torture if we do not? In short, does a God (using the biblical definition of what God is) have to be good in order to be worshiped?

I'm interested in the opinions on this one.


Meh.  Why are we talking about  G.Bush?
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 9:15:14 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ok....here's a question to chew upon.

According the the bible (we can stick with Jeudeo-Christianity), God is a bloodthirsty being who commands and/or commits genocide, is willing to kill scores of innocents and torture one who really loves him just to prove a point to another celestial creature, and who sentences most of the world's population to an eternal torture with no hope of redemption based on whether or not that person worships him in the manner he wishes to be worshiped. Given these facts (fact based on the holy books of the religions that support him), it can be argued that this God is either insane or evil.

My question is this: If it is true that this is a less than laudable being, is it still incumbent upon us to worship him because a) he created everything, b) he is the boss and/or c) because he will sentence us to eternal torture if we do not? In short, does a God (using the biblical definition of what God is) have to be good in order to be worshiped?

I'm interested in the opinions on this one.



I would like to know where in the bible, GOD is referred to in such a manner Chapter and verse please



It's the part that starts on Page 1, and runs all the way through to the end of the book.

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(in reply to Acer49)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 9:33:12 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		OK, I read through your links
quote:

What about this Old Testament "Killer God?"
This one is ridiculous. It purports to resolve the seemingly different God in the OT and NT, but really does no such thing. It uses very twisted logic and the idea of predestination to somehow say that when God says he did something, he really meant he didn’t do it. At least when the deed is a nasty one. Overall very confused thinking behind this attempt, though the section on how different words were mistranslated as ``wrath`` is good, but otherwise not worth the time it took to read.

quote:

Is Our God an Angry and Vengeful God?

This one doesn’t really deal with the actual issue, it is more focused on God’s ``chastisement`` of individual believers. The basic argument it makes is that God punishes you when you stray much in the same way a parent punishes a wayward child...out of love not anger. Fair enough, and admirable, but it doesn’t deal with the issue of the murders and genocides ordered in the OT which the OP asked about.

quote:

God is Wrathful, Vengeful, Jealous, and Angry every day--and you want me to have a relationship with Him?!
This one is quite good. Its basic argument is that the words wrath, jealous and vengeful have somewhat different meaning depending on the context. However, some of the proofs are a little strained, and occasionally it uses a contradictory passage to prove the contradiction doesn’t exist. Overall a very good examination of the problem, and a viable reconciliation of the apparent paradox. But again, it fails to address the problems raised by the OP, it doesn’t deal with God’s commanding genocide or mass murder.

quote:

Why is God so different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament?
This one is useless. It resolves the apparent difference by simply stating it does not exist. It does not address any of the issues in the OP, and it doesn’t even answer the question posed in its title. This one gets an F on all fronts.

quote:

Is the God of the Old Testament Different From the God of the New?
This one touches on the issues raised in the OP, but its main argument seems to be that since God is perfect and not capable of being unjust, there must be other factors we don’t know about that leads him to judge and punish various nations. Sort of a cop out....he can’t be wrong, so there must be stuff he knows that we don’t. This is dismissing the contradictions by saying there are other details not known that resolve the contradiction, so just ignore it. Pretty much like my telling you that I know something that proves Obama is certifiably insane, but I am not going to tell you what it is....so believe me anyway.

Sorry Treasure, only one of your links actually addressed the issues in the OP, and it didn’t do a very convincing job of reconciling the contradiction between what God commanded and what he is supposed to be like.

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(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 9:44:48 AM   
MstrPBK


Posts: 573
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline 		How can we possibly know what GOD is. To presume their state of mind - presumes we to are also gods.
Just a mere Mortal.

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA


< Message edited by MstrPBK -- 8/10/2009 9:45:49 AM >

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 9:45:25 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

However, if it's that or an eternity of infinite fucking torment, it seems that pragmatism weighs one pretty heavily towards cowing and saying "Yes massah, doan' beat po' slave!", doesn't it?


You know, I -so- wasn't going to tap in on this match, but I -have- to say that if this is the _only_ reason a person has to choose to believe in a god, then it seems like the typical 'carrot-stick' logic... and I'd much rather be true to myself and opt out of the whole paradigm and go get a mango.

DC


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(in reply to Ialdabaoth)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 9:46:52 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Calla---

I followed right along with you right up to the mango (I dont like mangoes) so I didn't understand what you were driving at.


LOL,
Ron


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(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 9:56:16 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

How can we possibly know what GOD is.
Well apparently he wrote this book that explains it all.

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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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(in reply to MstrPBK)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:03:20 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Well the Bible is supposedly the infallible inspired word of God. Its supposed to be correct in every aspect

The OT isn't, and the gospels have clearly been edited.

(in reply to Arpig)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:10:39 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		I agree with you Rule, 100%. However there are a shitload of folks who think differently on the matter.


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:12:12 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Anyone who worships God has neurological problems or is on drugs or is stupid.

This is demonstrably false and a misunderstanding of what metaphysical theism is as a psychological function in humans.


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"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:14:17 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Anyone who worships God has neurological problems or is on drugs or is stupid.

This is demonstrably false and a misunderstanding of what metaphysical theism is as a psychological function in humans.


How's about Oral Roberts and Jimmy Swaggart N0?

LOL,
Ron (other thread flashback)

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:17:53 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DanaYielding

Wow, some facets of this multilogue are quite interesting in a logico/philisophico way. It's difficult to not want to interject personal feelings/beliefs into such a discussion. That being said...If i live as Christianity teaches, and there is no God, then I have led a life that has benefitted not only myself but others through me, but if I lead a life contrary to the teachings of Christianity, and there is a God, and the Christian teachings are correct, ... I don't think I want to be so condemned to that hell.

Pascal's Wager.

The catch is that you're putting all your chips in on just one horse in the race. If the deity that actually exists is another jealous god who'll punish you for heresy, you may just be even more screwed.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 8/10/2009 10:28:54 AM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to DanaYielding)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:21:50 AM   
DanaYielding


Posts: 72
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline 		That would imply that the deity is completely unkown, then one would have no way to direct one's self to that deity's good graces. So Everyone would lose.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:25:03 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

How's about Oral Roberts and Jimmy Swaggart N0?

Not everyone who tries illicit drugs becomes a rabid, psychotic junkie. But some do.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:26:12 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DanaYielding

That would imply that the deity is completely unkown, then one would have no way to direct one's self to that deity's good graces. So Everyone would lose.

There is no way to assuredly know what constitutes the deity's good graces without a guess and a gamble.


_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to DanaYielding)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:31:38 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DanaYielding

How could anyone have free will without the ability to choose that which goes against?

The concept of "free will" cannot exist in a dynamic where extreme coercion is the means of persuasion. But "heavily suggested will" doesn't sound as pretty.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to DanaYielding)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:34:00 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: DanaYielding

How could anyone have free will without the ability to choose that which goes against?

The concept of "free will" cannot exist in a dynamic where extreme coercion is the means of persuasion. But "heavily suggested will" doesn't sound as pretty.


Do you give your girl 'free will'?
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:35:42 AM   
DanaYielding


Posts: 72
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline 		free will includes the ability to remain un-coerced.

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 80
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