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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 5:05:50 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I have read the bible many, many times.  I have never read where god threated anyone who did not worship him.


What about Ramses? Heck, God sent Moses there to threaten him, and then deliberately mucked with his head so he wouldn't listen to the threat, specifically to amplify Ramses' people's suffering so God could create some sort of historical object lesson.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 5:06:51 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

And if that is so Ialdabaoth th you would be damned either way. On he one hand by god to hell for eternity, on the other to heaven at the price of everything you believe is good and right again for all of eternity. They sound in the end remarkably similar.


Of course they are. And, in fact, that is precisely what I believe - that all of us are damned to Hell for eternity no matter what we do, and that God just chooses to tailor each of us a form for Hell that amuses him.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 5:10:24 PM   
Starbuck09


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Status: offline 		In that case you should in some ways be liberated Ialdabaoth. if you believe there is nothing but an eternity of torment awaiting you no matter what you do then  you should feel free to behave however you desire in the time available to you. Backed up by the greatest of human emotions hope, hope in this case that possibly just possibly your fate is not what you have envisaged.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 5:12:06 PM   
DanaYielding


Posts: 72
Joined: 12/11/2008
Status: offline 		Your circlular argument Ia renders even your own points mute. There has to be some constant for there to be any argument at all. You choose for example, to change the dynamics of the God to suit every response, and as such, have lost my interest.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 5:17:28 PM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ok....here's a question to chew upon.

According the the bible (we can stick with Jeudeo-Christianity), God is a bloodthirsty being who commands and/or commits genocide, is willing to kill scores of innocents and torture one who really loves him just to prove a point to another celestial creature, and who sentences most of the world's population to an eternal torture with no hope of redemption based on whether or not that person worships him in the manner he wishes to be worshiped. Given these facts (fact based on the holy books of the religions that support him), it can be argued that this God is either insane or evil.

My question is this: If it is true that this is a less than laudable being, is it still incumbent upon us to worship him because a) he created everything, b) he is the boss and/or c) because he will sentence us to eternal torture if we do not? In short, does a God (using the biblical definition of what God is) have to be good in order to be worshiped?

I'm interested in the opinions on this one.



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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 5:18:34 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DanaYielding

Your circlular argument Ia renders even your own points mute. There has to be some constant for there to be any argument at all. You choose for example, to change the dynamics of the God to suit every response, and as such, have lost my interest.


I'm not changing the dynamics; I'm exploring the consequences of different suggested dynamics. The thing is, there's a limit to what's logically possible, given the constraints of ZFP set theory and the like. And within our understanding of what "logic" is, when someone brings up certain traits about God, I feel it necessary to follow the rabbit-hole down and show what kind of God would have those traits, and what ELSE that would mean.

If we want to talk about my conception of God, we can, but that seems somewhat presumptuous of me. I'd rather illustrate the inherent necessities of others' conceptions of God, so they can make informed choices about their own logic.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 5:19:48 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

In that case you should in some ways be liberated Ialdabaoth. if you believe there is nothing but an eternity of torment awaiting you no matter what you do then  you should feel free to behave however you desire in the time available to you. Backed up by the greatest of human emotions hope, hope in this case that possibly just possibly your fate is not what you have envisaged.


Perhaps I should feel liberated, but it frequently seems that that's not in God's plan for me. So be it, then.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 5:22:26 PM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I have read the bible many, many times.  I have never read where god threated anyone who did not worship him.


What about Ramses? Heck, God sent Moses there to threaten him, and then deliberately mucked with his head so he wouldn't listen to the threat, specifically to amplify Ramses' people's suffering so God could create some sort of historical object lesson.


Well if you think the story is historical fact, but actually the threat was only to let the hebrew people go, not to worship.  And there wasn't a threat.  Read again.  Moses asked for the release of the people.  A plague happened.  God was held responsible for it.  A slight of hand, certainly a good trick for Moses, who being raised under the Pharoh's roof would know a trick or three. 

No, the God of the old testament never threatened anyone to worship or else.  Not once.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:11:22 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ok....here's a question to chew upon.

According the the bible (we can stick with Jeudeo-Christianity), God is a bloodthirsty being who commands and/or commits genocide, is willing to kill scores of innocents and torture one who really loves him just to prove a point to another celestial creature, and who sentences most of the world's population to an eternal torture with no hope of redemption based on whether or not that person worships him in the manner he wishes to be worshiped. Given these facts (fact based on the holy books of the religions that support him), it can be argued that this God is either insane or evil.

My question is this: If it is true that this is a less than laudable being, is it still incumbent upon us to worship him because a) he created everything, b) he is the boss and/or c) because he will sentence us to eternal torture if we do not? In short, does a God (using the biblical definition of what God is) have to be good in order to be worshiped?

I'm interested in the opinions on this one.


Meh.  Why are we talking about  G.Bush?
 
the.dark.


No, something much worse.  Bush is the most disgusting representation of a president the human mind could have come up.

If we are to take the bible at its word and accepting the authority.  The god of this bible knowingly, openly and proudly demonstrates itself to be far beyond the most disgusting representation of god the human mind can come up with.

This god punishes you for eternity over your thoughts - Bush had not figured that out yet.


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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:20:30 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

The only time I have heard the whole fire and brimstone thing is from people who think they know what the bible says and claim to be non christians, atheists or agnostics. The fire and brimstone legend is just that. Whether you believe the bible is a book of mythical stories, or true ones - it's a legend that in reality doesn't exist. Christians know that. Non christians not so much. Even scholars I have spoken to who have identified themselves to me as non christians know that the whole fire and brimstone thing isn't what hell is all about.

I beg to differ...

Isaiah 66:24 (New International Version)
24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Jude 1:7 (New International Version)
7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."

Matthew 13:41-42 (New International Version)
41 "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 18:8 (New International Version)
8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."

Matthew 18:9 (New International Version)
9 "And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

Matthew 25:41 (New International Version)
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Mark 9:42-49 (New International Version)
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
49 Everyone will be salted with fire."

Revelation 14:11 (New International Version)
11 "And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Revelation 20:15 (New International Version)
15 "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8 (New International Version)
8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Seems to me that this "legend" has a pretty firm basis in scripture, particularly the New Testament. I think it can be said to have been conclusively shown that the "fire and brimstone" image of Hell is in fact a Christian idea.




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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:26:21 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

No. Humans do not have to be this thing that is called "Good". It is quite interesting to see how particular 'brands' of worship align with each other. If one were to see religious sects as an organism....

It makes me wonder which organism will survive without all of the individual cells destroying each other in the process. It also makes me wonder what each religious organism will mutate into.

Is worship the equivalent to giving energy?
Enlighten me.
Well pyro, I would try to enlighten you,but I haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:26:31 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

... It would be nice to understand why people who aren't Christians so often presume to tell those who are about the beliefs of Christians.


lol... A head scratcher, isn't it?


Yes it is. And an even bigger one to me is why can't people just believe or not believe as they wish and quite trying to trash the beliefs of others? If you are not a Christian, that is superfinecool with me. I feel no need to denigrate you, call you foolish, make fun of your deity or lack thereof or anything else negative. What is so humorous and pathetic is the constant stream of hateful things said trying to "disprove" God's existence, insist that Jesus doesn't exist or wasn't divine and many other things. If you don't believe, goody for you. But do ya really have to put down everything about those who do to boost yourself up? And...btw...this goes for anyone who feels the need to trash anyone else's beliefs whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish or athiest. Believe what you want and shaddup already

luci


We are allowed to attack beliefs about science.  Beliefs about politics.  Beliefs about sex.  Beliefs about neuroscience.  Beliefs about psychology. Beliefs about linguistics.  Beliefs about math.

We evaluate, criticize and question EVERY sphere of human knowledge by every means necessary hundreds of times a day.

"No matter how irrational, illogical or childish my belief about god is you can not question it nay nay boo boo"

The claim has been repeated ad nauseum.  That is not what is pathetic though.  What is sad is when the trumpet boy of girl dance to the tune of this statement they actually think it is rational.

god(whatever it is - whatever your mind will have it be) like any spear of human knowledge(conceptual/non-conceptual) is open to discussion, critique, questioning or criticism like everything.  If it makes people feel uncomfortable, attacked or threatened it is not my problem

< Message edited by Esinn -- 8/10/2009 8:29:45 PM >

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:39:28 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I have read the bible many, many times.  I have never read where god threated anyone who did not worship him.


What about Ramses? Heck, God sent Moses there to threaten him, and then deliberately mucked with his head so he wouldn't listen to the threat, specifically to amplify Ramses' people's suffering so God could create some sort of historical object lesson.


Well if you think the story is historical fact, but actually the threat was only to let the hebrew people go, not to worship.  And there wasn't a threat.  Read again.  Moses asked for the release of the people.  A plague happened.  God was held responsible for it.  A slight of hand, certainly a good trick for Moses, who being raised under the Pharoh's roof would know a trick or three. 

No, the God of the old testament never threatened anyone to worship or else.  Not once.


A slight of hand?


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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 8:45:11 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

A slight of hand, certainly a good trick for Moses, who being raised under the Pharoh's roof would know a trick or three.
And just how did Moses, a mere human, accomplish those famous plagues without the intervention of God? And if growing up in Pharaoh's house would teach him how to pull off a stunt like the plagues, wouldn't Pharaoh have recognized them for the "slight of hand" that they were?

quote:

No, the God of the old testament never threatened anyone to worship or else.  Not once.
What about: "you shall have no other gods before me"?

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/10/2009 10:20:09 PM   
Monkeyontuesday


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quote:



Well if you think the story is historical fact, but actually the threat was only to let the hebrew people go, not to worship.  And there wasn't a threat.  Read again.  Moses asked for the release of the people.  A plague happened.  God was held responsible for it.  A slight of hand, certainly a good trick for Moses, who being raised under the Pharoh's roof would know a trick or three. 

No, the God of the old testament never threatened anyone to worship or else.  Not once.


What about that whole "I will harden Pharaoh's heart and he will not let the people go" thing where then God said he will stretch out His hand and smite Egypt with all His wonders? (Exodus 10: 1, 7: 3, 7: 13, etc)


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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 3:09:25 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Hello Mr Arpig.
 
As I said before, most of  (not all) christians I have spoken to due not discount the literary version of the bible, but those well versed in the historical significance of parables and story telling as used in the times that the bible was translated (as well as it's use prior) and the use of metaphors and other analagies pretty much avoid stating the hell and brimstone as fact.  No self identified christian has ever come to me on a personal basis and gone - this is hell... it's full of fire and will burn you alive for all eternity.
 
It may only be a way of describing hell as unpleasent.  In times where storytellers stood on street corners, and where writing was done by so few - it was so much different to the way we can relate tales now.  It may even be a prophacy that has yet to be fulfilled (global warming etc).
It's sad really.  As a child I remember reading books and novels by Lewis and Wilde.  Even then storytelling was far more adventurous.  More exciting and descriptive.  Reading the authors of today that my children are subjected to, no wonder english is so poor in many cases.
 
the.dark.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 3:25:26 AM   
RCdc


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I have never seen God (I am capping it for this particular post) as.... no lets strike that and get all biblical.  I have never seen Jehovah... as good nor evil.  I think that making him into some sort of unapprochable concept is what makes him so laughable and so worsihpful at the same time.
He did make threats.  He did make people suffer.  Well, to our egos and to the way we define threats and evil he did.  But then he made us didn't he?  So he knows and we know that right?  Well if you believe the OT that's what you have to accept.
 
I have it easy.  I had a great family life.  My parents are prime examples of gods in action.  Creating me, nurturing me and telling me off and punishing me with no weekends out when I didn't abide by the rules.  Rules I didn't choose, rules that were forced upon me because I was born to a particular couple.  I even got to leave and go to hell.  I got to come back again.
 
Jehovah isn't good.  He isn't evil.  But by the book he is Righteous.  And just because you might think him wrong, does not make him not right.  The biggest part of peoples understanding of the bible, is they don't understand the concept of righteousness and that in turn creates people seeing the OT as far more legalistic than it is for the concept of christianity.
 
And if something is righteous, it is justified of worship.
 
the.dark.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 4:16:20 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

A slight of hand, certainly a good trick for Moses, who being raised under the Pharoh's roof would know a trick or three.
And just how did Moses, a mere human, accomplish those famous plagues without the intervention of God? And if growing up in Pharaoh's house would teach him how to pull off a stunt like the plagues, wouldn't Pharaoh have recognized them for the "slight of hand" that they were?

quote:

No, the God of the old testament never threatened anyone to worship or else.  Not once.
What about: "you shall have no other gods before me"?


Was there a threat attached to the "you shall have no other gods before me."?  No.  The Commandments was part of the covenent between God and the Isrealites.  In order to be in that club, there were rules no different than being in any other club.  Or nation, for that matter.  A contract requires each side to give something in return for something. 

In the story of Moses, the first three "plagues" Pharoh's own magicians were able to replicate Moses's tricks, setting the stage to assume all the plagues were slight of hand as it were.  The story doesn't provide any historical fact.  It is not a chronical.  We don't know for a fact who the Pharoh was in the story.  There is speculation but no proof whatsoever.  Many of the stories written by Moses are compiled from the legends and tradions that were sum of the oral traditions of his day.  Modern historians and archelogists have tied the 'plague' events to volcanic ash.  Ash in the nile kills the frogs which bring flies which cause disease that causes death.  Anyone back in those days would attribute those events to "God" because they did not have the science to explain it.  To assume all the events in the Exodus story happened in the course of days or weeks or to assume it is historical fact is not understanding what the old testament is.

The bible, to me at least, is a wonderful look into the hearts and minds of ancient people.  It shows me that people are basically the same from the beginning of history, that we struggle to live well, it takes effort to know what is right in a set of circumstances.  Ordinary historical texts give names, dates, and events, but not so much what was going on in the more personal aspects of history.  We can visit a museum and see how people may have lived but not how they thought.  There are lessons to be found in the bible that are not easily found in any other available text.

There are a lot of people who live in hell because of the choices they have made and their own reaction to their circumstances.  You see it every day.  What is God, if it is not our own soul, spirit, heart, that part inside us all tht makes us who we are.  If we assume God is just a cosmic Dimbulb, a thing outside ourselves, then there is no hope for any of us.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 4:19:14 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

A slight of hand, certainly a good trick for Moses, who being raised under the Pharoh's roof would know a trick or three.
And just how did Moses, a mere human, accomplish those famous plagues without the intervention of God? And if growing up in Pharaoh's house would teach him how to pull off a stunt like the plagues, wouldn't Pharaoh have recognized them for the "slight of hand" that they were?


Again, if you read the story, Pharaoh's magicians replicated the first couple of 'plagues' and therefore Pharaoh did recongnize them as tricks and assumed all the rest were tricks as well, even when his magicians could not replicate them.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 4:25:48 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Status: offline 		This isn't an easy answer, if he is our creator and has theses traits,I would say yes however I am pretty sure the path I walk is the correct one..Bounty

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