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ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

*Pulling out my checkbook and writing a Reality Check*

Debate is nothing more than an opportunity to advance one's views. That is, in fact, why many of us choose to participate in a venue of this nature. Realistically, those who fit at the outer edges of polarizing questions like this are, essentially, unreachable -- there is no argument that will change the way that they think/believe. For those in the middle, who knows -- perhaps someone's views will change. Does this prove the existence of God? Does it prove that there -is- no God? Who knows? Who cares? It wouldn't prove much to -me-, but that, too, is completely dependent on perception, which is completely subjective.

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ok...let me make one try to get this back on track. My initial question was not whether God is good or evil or even if he exists. Those are subjects that I have seen argued ad infinitum. My question is this: If God is evil, insane or otherwise not wholesome and positive, but did create the world and does have the power to mete out eternal punishment, is that a good reason in and of itself to worship him?

That's a question I have yet to see answered.

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ORIGINAL: Esinn
There is no evidence to support that a thing we call god it is real.  Do you believe in Zeus?  Thor?  Mithra?  Thoth?  Ra?  IsIs? Apollo? Artemis? Seth?  Amun? Osiris? Nut/Geb?  Tiamat?  Enki? Anu? Apsu? Gilgamesh? Phoenicia? Huitzilopochtli?

No rational person would accept the existence of these gods.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
Ok...let me make one try to get this back on track. My initial question was not whether God is good or evil or even if he exists. Those are subjects that I have seen argued ad infinitum. My question is this: If God is evil, insane or otherwise not wholesome and positive, but did create the world and does have the power to mete out eternal punishment, is that a good reason in and of itself to worship him?

That's a question I have yet to see answered.

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ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

quote:



I don't believe that God said any such thing because I believe this was a story Moses wrote long after the fact as to give proof to people that God was at least as powerful as the Sun or anything else people wanted to worship.  There are people today who believe hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish the sinful city of New Orleans.  They would never have said prior to the hurricane that God will punish sinful cities by sending hurricanes.  It's like reading Nostradamas and saying "See!  He predicted 9/11 !"  But I can see where it would be a conflict to first believe the bible to be accurate history and the literal Word of God and then try to see God as something good.  I personally don't believe in a Cosmic Asshole, but I do believe in God.

Many of the people I have heard blaming September 11 and Katrina on "the fags, dykes, abortionists, et al" listened to Pat Robertson WAY too much.

That being said, oral tradition is surprisingly accurate and thus the main, key points would be kept. I pointed out previously that nothing was written down until the Babylonian Exile, but since then it's been fairly consistent to my knowledge.

So, my question for you is: how are we going to take bits and pieces of the Bible? In theory shouldn't it be either all or nothing?

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Of course oral traditions keep main points, but what if we are missing those points?  See, maybe I read the bible differently than anyone else but what I see in the Exodus story is this.  People are inherently fickle, want instant gratification and constant reaffirmation.  The key point for me is that even with elaborate "signs and wonders" people in general will not believe in what they cannot see, touch, taste, smell, or hear.  It is easier to accept the physical than to examine the spiritual.  It would seem from the majority of the posts, that the majority of the people read the Exodus story as an example of God as an insane and/or evil asshole.

The entire bible speaks to me personally that God is god within, and that it is the continued seeking, questioning, and willingness to examine myself down to my core, my own soul, that is where God will be revealed.  So for me, the bible is by far one of the best resources in forming questions about the spiritual.  Why would this or that passage be written, what is its context, how would it relate to me on a personal level? 

I have already been called an idiot.  That's okay.  I can't explain my soul to others and if I were to tell my 'proof' of what I believe no doubt I would be bashed right out of these discussions.  I don't expect anyone else to see what I see or to know what I know. 

Because the bible is a collection of a variety of writings by a variety of people that has been copied, added to, deleted from, how could the whole be considered one work?  That the bible continues to be a best-seller tells me that there is something of interest within its pages but not everyone believes the same.  So no, I don't see the bible as all or nothing.  I also don't see the bible telling anyone of any one true way.  Just because I put together a collection of what a committee deems the best books on BDSM would that create just one way of doing what it is that we do?  Seriously?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
The incarnate gods. I have no knowledge about Phoenicia, though. What goddess was she? The others did exist and undoubtedly still exist. As well as many of their avatars.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn

There is no evidence to support that a thing we call god it is real.  Do you believe in Zeus?  Thor?  Mithra?  Thoth?  Ra?  IsIs? Apollo? Artemis? Seth?  Amun?  Osiris? Nut/Geb?  Tiamat?  Enki? Anu? Apsu? Gilgamesh? Phoenicia? Huitzilopochtli?

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Yes I'd say that's a big reason why atheists as a group have become more motivated and begun pushing back.

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ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

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ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

Ok....here's a question to chew upon.

According the the bible (we can stick with Jeudeo-Christianity), God is a bloodthirsty being who commands and/or commits genocide, is willing to kill scores of innocents and torture one who really loves him just to prove a point to another celestial creature, and who sentences most of the world's population to an eternal torture with no hope of redemption based on whether or not that person worships him in the manner he wishes to be worshiped. Given these facts (fact based on the holy books of the religions that support him), it can be argued that this God is either insane or evil.

My question is this: If it is true that this is a less than laudable being, is it still incumbent upon us to worship him because a) he created everything, b) he is the boss and/or c) because he will sentence us to eternal torture if we do not? In short, does a God (using the biblical definition of what God is) have to be good in order to be worshiped?

I'm interested in the opinions on this one.

I'd seriously bring your knowledge and understanding of the Bible into question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Esinn


I hate posting fucking videos.  No one ever looks - lazy bastards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0mJn9L-vSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpEnFwiqdx8

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ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

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Of course oral traditions keep main points, but what if we are missing those points?  See, maybe I read the bible differently than anyone else but what I see in the Exodus story is this.  People are inherently fickle, want instant gratification and constant reaffirmation.  The key point for me is that even with elaborate "signs and wonders" people in general will not believe in what they cannot see, touch, taste, smell, or hear.  It is easier to accept the physical than to examine the spiritual.  It would seem from the majority of the posts, that the majority of the people read the Exodus story as an example of God as an insane and/or evil asshole.

The entire bible speaks to me personally that God is god within, and that it is the continued seeking, questioning, and willingness to examine myself down to my core, my own soul, that is where God will be revealed.  So for me, the bible is by far one of the best resources in forming questions about the spiritual.  Why would this or that passage be written, what is its context, how would it relate to me on a personal level? 

I have already been called an idiot.  That's okay.  I can't explain my soul to others and if I were to tell my 'proof' of what I believe no doubt I would be bashed right out of these discussions.  I don't expect anyone else to see what I see or to know what I know. 

Because the bible is a collection of a variety of writings by a variety of people that has been copied, added to, deleted from, how could the whole be considered one work?  That the bible continues to be a best-seller tells me that there is something of interest within its pages but not everyone believes the same.  So no, I don't see the bible as all or nothing.  I also don't see the bible telling anyone of any one true way.  Just because I put together a collection of what a committee deems the best books on BDSM would that create just one way of doing what it is that we do?  Seriously?

Re: Affirmation... I agree with that sentiment; however, my point was the text itself states that God did such a thing, which, amongst other things, takes away the free will of Pharaoh. When I said one work, I meant this: How do you justify taking those bits and pieces that you like and throwing the rest (for example, this passage in question) away, especially when it so explicitly states what God has said?

The canon IS meant to be taken as a whole, starting with Nicaea in 325 and moving on through the other councils. You seem to take a more Gnostic bent on it, and there's nothing wrong with that; I was just under the impression that we were speaking of the accepted Christian canon and thought process.

By the way, I have never called or thought you stupid or ignorant and I sort of resent that continually being brought up; if I thought those things, I would say so and drop the conversation.

quote:

Of course oral traditions keep main points, but what if we are missing those points? See, maybe I read the bible differently than anyone else but what I see in the Exodus story is this. People are inherently fickle, want instant gratification and constant reaffirmation. The key point for me is that even with elaborate "signs and wonders" people in general will not believe in what they cannot see, touch, taste, smell, or hear. It is easier to accept the physical than to examine the spiritual. It would seem from the majority of the posts, that the majority of the people read the Exodus story as an example of God as an insane and/or evil asshole.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
The only thing this post shows is that you are thinking like any other fundementalist.

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incarnate

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ORIGINAL: eyesopened

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ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

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I don't believe that God said any such thing because I believe this was a story Moses wrote long after the fact as to give proof to people that God was at least as powerful as the Sun or anything else people wanted to worship.  There are people today who believe hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish the sinful city of New Orleans.  They would never have said prior to the hurricane that God will punish sinful cities by sending hurricanes.  It's like reading Nostradamas and saying "See!  He predicted 9/11 !"  But I can see where it would be a conflict to first believe the bible to be accurate history and the literal Word of God and then try to see God as something good.  I personally don't believe in a Cosmic Asshole, but I do believe in God.

Many of the people I have heard blaming September 11 and Katrina on "the fags, dykes, abortionists, et al" listened to Pat Robertson WAY too much.

That being said, oral tradition is surprisingly accurate and thus the main, key points would be kept. I pointed out previously that nothing was written down until the Babylonian Exile, but since then it's been fairly consistent to my knowledge.

So, my question for you is: how are we going to take bits and pieces of the Bible? In theory shouldn't it be either all or nothing?

Of course oral traditions keep main points, but what if we are missing those points?  See, maybe I read the bible differently than anyone else but what I see in the Exodus story is this.  People are inherently fickle, want instant gratification and constant reaffirmation.  The key point for me is that even with elaborate "signs and wonders" people in general will not believe in what they cannot see, touch, taste, smell, or hear.  It is easier to accept the physical than to examine the spiritual.  It would seem from the majority of the posts, that the majority of the people read the Exodus story as an example of God as an insane and/or evil asshole.

The entire bible speaks to me personally that God is god within, and that it is the continued seeking, questioning, and willingness to examine myself down to my core, my own soul, that is where God will be revealed.  So for me, the bible is by far one of the best resources in forming questions about the spiritual.  Why would this or that passage be written, what is its context, how would it relate to me on a personal level? 

I have already been called an idiot.  That's okay.  I can't explain my soul to others and if I were to tell my 'proof' of what I believe no doubt I would be bashed right out of these discussions.  I don't expect anyone else to see what I see or to know what I know. 

Because the bible is a collection of a variety of writings by a variety of people that has been copied, added to, deleted from, how could the whole be considered one work?  That the bible continues to be a best-seller tells me that there is something of interest within its pages but not everyone believes the same.  So no, I don't see the bible as all or nothing.  I also don't see the bible telling anyone of any one true way.  Just because I put together a collection of what a committee deems the best books on BDSM would that create just one way of doing what it is that we do?  Seriously?

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ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

People tend to assume that the bible is the be and end of all christianity. 
the.dark. 

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archetypes

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ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic




You only see what you want to believe.