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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 4:31:36 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

quote:



Well if you think the story is historical fact, but actually the threat was only to let the hebrew people go, not to worship.  And there wasn't a threat.  Read again.  Moses asked for the release of the people.  A plague happened.  God was held responsible for it.  A slight of hand, certainly a good trick for Moses, who being raised under the Pharoh's roof would know a trick or three. 

No, the God of the old testament never threatened anyone to worship or else.  Not once.


What about that whole "I will harden Pharaoh's heart and he will not let the people go" thing where then God said he will stretch out His hand and smite Egypt with all His wonders? (Exodus 10: 1, 7: 3, 7: 13, etc)



I don't believe that God said any such thing because I believe this was a story Moses wrote long after the fact as to give proof to people that God was at least as powerful as the Sun or anything else people wanted to worship.  There are people today who believe hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish the sinful city of New Orleans.  They would never have said prior to the hurricane that God will punish sinful cities by sending hurricanes.  It's like reading Nostradamas and saying "See!  He predicted 9/11 !"  But I can see where it would be a conflict to first believe the bible to be accurate history and the literal Word of God and then try to see God as something good.  I personally don't believe in a Cosmic Asshole, but I do believe in God.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 7:42:12 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Yes it is. And an even bigger one to me is why can't people just believe or not believe as they wish and quite trying to trash the beliefs of others? If you are not a Christian, that is superfinecool with me. I feel no need to denigrate you, call you foolish, make fun of your deity or lack thereof or anything else negative. What is so humorous and pathetic is the constant stream of hateful things said trying to "disprove" God's existence, insist that Jesus doesn't exist or wasn't divine and many other things. If you don't believe, goody for you. But do ya really have to put down everything about those who do to boost yourself up? And...btw...this goes for anyone who feels the need to trash anyone else's beliefs whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish or athiest. Believe what you want and shaddup already

luci


The problem with a don't ask don't tell policy for Atheism is stuff like this: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." George Bush at O'Hare Airport, Chicago (August 27, 1987). In recent history a movement has started to break down the separation of church and state in order to indoctrinate children with Christianity in school, mandate Christianity from the bench and legislate Christianity from the legislature. This fundamentalist movement has motivated a large number of atheists to speak up because we don't want our country to be run by delusions and superstitions.



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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 8:15:39 AM   
Monkeyontuesday


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quote:



I don't believe that God said any such thing because I believe this was a story Moses wrote long after the fact as to give proof to people that God was at least as powerful as the Sun or anything else people wanted to worship.  There are people today who believe hurricane Katrina was sent by God to punish the sinful city of New Orleans.  They would never have said prior to the hurricane that God will punish sinful cities by sending hurricanes.  It's like reading Nostradamas and saying "See!  He predicted 9/11 !"  But I can see where it would be a conflict to first believe the bible to be accurate history and the literal Word of God and then try to see God as something good.  I personally don't believe in a Cosmic Asshole, but I do believe in God.


Many of the people I have heard blaming September 11 and Katrina on "the fags, dykes, abortionists, et al" listened to Pat Robertson WAY too much.

That being said, oral tradition is surprisingly accurate and thus the main, key points would be kept. I pointed out previously that nothing was written down until the Babylonian Exile, but since then it's been fairly consistent to my knowledge.

So, my question for you is: how are we going to take bits and pieces of the Bible? In theory shouldn't it be either all or nothing?


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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 8:21:29 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
 The only time I have heard the whole fire and brimstone thing is from people who think they know what the bible says and claim to be non christians, atheists or agnostics.


You've never been told that you'll burn in Hellfire for celebrating Halloween or had someone try and force a bible on you to save you from Hell? I wish I didn't run across those sort of people but they do exist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvEsqCgkeKM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkL7wcmqyfw


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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 9:33:10 AM   
NihilusZero


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Status: offline 		I'm still a bit unsure as to why the enforced sadism of the judeo-christian deity is so hard to grasp:
  • He creates each individual.
  • He creates sin.
  • He creates each individual knowing the exact percentage propensity for that individual to commit sin.
  • He creates hell (eternal torment).as a punishment for the sinful.
Whether worship is part of the issue or not, this deity creates people he already knows he will be sending to hell to torture (who, we are to believe, actually choose to torture themselves via "free will" even though their decisions were already pre-known by this god in the first place...effectively contradicting the idea. Unless we wish to say that he gives us the illusion of free will until we come to the end result he already knows we'll come to).

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 10:00:59 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

but those well versed in the historical significance of parables and story telling as used in the times that the bible was translated (as well as it's use prior) and the use of metaphors and other analagies pretty much avoid stating the hell and brimstone as fact.
But that is just cherry picking. Saying that despite what the Bible says over and over, in this particular case it is all just analogies, not to be taken literally....the bits about homosexuality being wrong though, those are to be taken literally. Bullshit I say, bullshit three feet deep. They cannot hold the Bible up as the revealed word of God,on the one hand and just write off the embarrassing bits by saying that particular section is just a metaphor. They cannot pick and choose. Both the OT and the NT refer to Hell as a place of  "fire", not just once, but repeatedly. Are we to believe that this is just coincidence?
By what authority are all these sections of the Bible declared allegorical while others are not?
And if Hell is not a place of flames, then why is it so described pretty much any time it is mentioned?

This sort of transparent sophistry is why I cannot accept Christianity as espoused by any of the various Christian sects. The contradictions and unpleasant bits are explained away with the flimsiest of excuses, and convoluted reasoning that makes no sense when held up to even cursory examination.


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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 10:40:10 AM   
Brain


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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 10:59:03 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Hey Brain, you still haven't answered my question. What exactly is it in the fields of astronomy, physics and evolutionary biology that disproves the existence of God?

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 11:11:29 AM   
pyroaquatic


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Status: offline 		So God is sending God to hell if God misbehaves?

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 11:13:34 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
 The only time I have heard the whole fire and brimstone thing is from people who think they know what the bible says and claim to be non christians, atheists or agnostics.


You've never been told that you'll burn in Hellfire for celebrating Halloween or had someone try and force a bible on you to save you from Hell? I wish I didn't run across those sort of people but they do exist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvEsqCgkeKM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkL7wcmqyfw




Nope.
But then, I am not in america, though because I have attended american based church plants.  Even then, never told I would go to hell if I didn't follow some one true way.  I even attended alpha courses and although I don't dig the views, I haven't had anyone try and 'convert' me even there.  Have heard people who believe they have had that experience.  Me - never have.  Never had the bible forced on me either - but then I pretty much picked it up just like I have picked up many relgious texts because it's my thing... by myself and can discuss through it.
But then I am a big believer that one attracts what one puts out.
 
the.dark.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 11:19:33 AM   
NihilusZero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

So God is sending God to hell if God misbehaves?

Essentially. The loophole, though, is that this god is his own arbiter as to whether or not he has misbehaved. Especially if his followers are prone to excuse his indiscretions as "working in mysterious ways".


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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 11:19:54 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

but those well versed in the historical significance of parables and story telling as used in the times that the bible was translated (as well as it's use prior) and the use of metaphors and other analagies pretty much avoid stating the hell and brimstone as fact.
But that is just cherry picking. Saying that despite what the Bible says over and over, in this particular case it is all just analogies, not to be taken literally....the bits about homosexuality being wrong though, those are to be taken literally. Bullshit I say, bullshit three feet deep. They cannot hold the Bible up as the revealed word of God,on the one hand and just write off the embarrassing bits by saying that particular section is just a metaphor. They cannot pick and choose. Both the OT and the NT refer to Hell as a place of  "fire", not just once, but repeatedly. Are we to believe that this is just coincidence?
By what authority are all these sections of the Bible declared allegorical while others are not?
And if Hell is not a place of flames, then why is it so described pretty much any time it is mentioned?

This sort of transparent sophistry is why I cannot accept Christianity as espoused by any of the various Christian sects. The contradictions and unpleasant bits are explained away with the flimsiest of excuses, and convoluted reasoning that makes no sense when held up to even cursory examination.


No picking and choosing.  I can see where you can accuse someone of cherry picking, but it's not always like that.  Like I said before, we are talking christianity in this instance.  Not Judaism.  And as I said before, that the misunderstanding of righteousness leads to the proclaimation that the OT is far more legalistic than it is for chrisitianity.  We are not discussing a jewish god.  We are discussing a christian one.
 
Picking up on the homsexuality issue.  That isn't metaphor.  That's misunderstanding of a particular word.
 
the.dark.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 11:22:04 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Hey Brain, you still haven't answered my question. What exactly is it in the fields of astronomy, physics and evolutionary biology that disproves the existence of God?


You're not expecting to get an answer from someone with know knowledge - other than what other people tell them?
Might have to give him a few more days before he comes up with a link...
 
the.dark.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 11:50:08 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

Yes it is. And an even bigger one to me is why can't people just believe or not believe as they wish and quite trying to trash the beliefs of others? If you are not a Christian, that is superfinecool with me. I feel no need to denigrate you, call you foolish, make fun of your deity or lack thereof or anything else negative. What is so humorous and pathetic is the constant stream of hateful things said trying to "disprove" God's existence, insist that Jesus doesn't exist or wasn't divine and many other things. If you don't believe, goody for you. But do ya really have to put down everything about those who do to boost yourself up? And...btw...this goes for anyone who feels the need to trash anyone else's beliefs whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish or athiest. Believe what you want and shaddup already

luci


The problem with a don't ask don't tell policy for Atheism is stuff like this: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." George Bush at O'Hare Airport, Chicago (August 27, 1987). In recent history a movement has started to break down the separation of church and state in order to indoctrinate children with Christianity in school, mandate Christianity from the bench and legislate Christianity from the legislature. This fundamentalist movement has motivated a large number of atheists to speak up because we don't want our country to be run by delusions and superstitions.





And this is why we have posters who spend hours and hours giving us threads and multiple links to prove that their way is the only true way? That anyone who believes in any type of god is ignorant or delusional? But then they turn around and talk about religous people pushing their views in their face? Yea right.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2751218/mpage_3/key_/tm.htm#2751901

Note: the example post is the one from Brain, I just linked to Firmhands responce because I really liked it.

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 8/11/2009 11:56:02 AM >

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 11:57:51 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Hey Brain, you still haven't answered my question. What exactly is it in the fields of astronomy, physics and evolutionary biology that disproves the existence of God?


You're not expecting to get an answer from someone with know knowledge - other than what other people tell them?
Might have to give him a few more days before he comes up with a link...
 
the.dark.


Oh I don't know, he is pretty quick with the links. If the Jehovah Witnesses had this kind of dedication, think of the doorbells they could have rung.

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 12:43:33 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


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Debate is nothing more than an opportunity to advance one's views. That is, in fact, why many of us choose to participate in a venue of this nature. Realistically, those who fit at the outer edges of polarizing questions like this are, essentially, unreachable -- there is no argument that will change the way that they think/believe. For those in the middle, who knows -- perhaps someone's views will change. Does this prove the existence of God? Does it prove that there -is- no God? Who knows? Who cares? It wouldn't prove much to -me-, but that, too, is completely dependent on perception, which is completely subjective.

Normally, I would let Stella have the honors, but here I am, twice in a single day, finding that what I was listening to on the headphones had a direct impact on what I'd read on the boards and feeling compelled to add it to my intellectual masturbation:

belief is a beautiful armor
but makes for the heaviest sword
like punching underwater
you never can hit who you're trying for
some lead the exhibition
and some have to know they tried
it's the chemical weapon
for the war that's raging on inside
oh, everyone believes
from emptiness to everything
oh, everyone believes
and no one's going quietly

we're never gonna win the world
we're never gonna stop the war
we're never gonna beat this
if belief is what we're fighting for
(From "Belief" by John Mayer)

Thank you for playing along.
DC


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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 8:47:26 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

And this is why we have posters who spend hours and hours giving us threads and multiple links to prove that their way is the only true way?


Well, I don't know about brain, I can't say that I read his posts so you'll have to ask him. But yeah candidates like Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee have been a motivating force for some atheists. I think I'd probably use the wording one actual reality instead of one true way and I certainly don't claim to know it. But after attempts to teach the book of Genesis in science class in my back yard, yeah I'm going to stand up and point out that some beliefs are out of touch with demonstrable reality. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
But then they turn around and talk about religious people pushing their views in their face? 


Yes I'd say that's a big reason why atheists as a group have become more motivated and begun pushing back.


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 9:02:37 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

I personally don't believe in a Cosmic Asshole, but I do believe in God.
But not the God depicted in the Old Testament....right?

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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 9:11:11 PM   
Esinn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I don't believe that God said any such thing because I believe this was a story Moses wrote long after the fact as to give proof to people that God was at least as powerful as the Sun or anything else people wanted to worship. 



Just so you know there is no evidence, not a shred, to suggest Moses wrote the evidence.

The existence of Moses as a historical person is highly questionable also.

What is not questionable is if Moses was a historical person he had nothing to do with authorship of the Pentateuch.


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RE: If God is Insane and/or Evil, Should We Still Worsh... - 8/11/2009 9:19:06 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

No picking and choosing. I can see where you can accuse someone of cherry picking, but it's not always like that. Like I said before, we are talking christianity in this instance. Not Judaism. And as I said before, that the misunderstanding of righteousness leads to the proclaimation that the OT is far more legalistic than it is for chrisitianity. We are not discussing a jewish god. We are discussing a christian one.
All but two of the passages I quoted are from the New Testament, and mostly from the Gospels, where they are reported as Jesus' words, so it does apply directly to Christianity. These are supposed to be the actual words of the Christian God, either as spoken directly by Him in His incarnation as the Son, or as revealed by Him to John on the island of Patmos.

How is it that these particular passages are determined to be allegorical while others are not? Why does the Christian God lie about Hell every time he mentions it? He explicitly says it consists of flames or a lake of fire,yet nowhere does he say it consists of mere separation from Him for eternity. Why, if Hell is in fact the second and not the first does He always refer to it as being the first and never as being the second? Why does the Christian God lie and mislead about this rather important theological concept?


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