RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE".....

RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (Full Version)

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Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 7:16:08 AM)
Shakti it is not fair to point to the length of this thread as evidence that the views held are societal and not personal. There have been an equal number of posts from women but I do not pronounce your views the product of enforced stereotyping which limits the female responses to a predictable spectrum. I read and judge each posts on their individual merit. The subjugation of women was in a time that men were also constrained absolutely by society what we have now is freedom of choice in how we wish to live our lives. That women on a national scale do not earn as much as men is not down to chauvinism alone there are plenty of factors involved. Likewise on this thread the responses from men are for a wide variety of reasons. In any debate therw will be certain stock answers but that does not mean those answers are devoid of validity. Have a debate about the Israel Palastine conflict and you will get certain responses that are utterly predictable however the reasoning behind them is not so.

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 7:33:48 AM)
Starbuck, I think one of the reasons that this thread started on an acrimonious note then proceeded to get worse was because all sorts of views have been - and continue to be - lumped together, reduced, oversimplified and generally treated without the respect they deserve.

ShaktiSama -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 7:37:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Shakti it is not fair to point to the length of this thread as evidence that the views held are societal and not personal. It is more than fair. It is, in fact, downright scientific. The length of the thread indicates the participation of many individuals. The conflict indicates that there is an issue here which effects and concerns more than one human being. How do you think the word "society" is defined? quote: Likewise on this thread the responses from men are for a wide variety of reasons. I am not sure why you think this is a meaningful statement. People exist as individuals and as a society simultaneously. Yes, the men who are all saying the same things, over and over, in multiple threads, for years upon years? Are all individuals at some level. At another level they are members of sociey, and their concerns and feelings reflect social tensions that effect millions of people. I realize that you are very, very dedicated to keeping your viewpoint very firmly focused on yourself. You bring up a lot of personal tastes, like your bisexuality, as "proof" that your views are purely personal and have nothing to do with broader social issues. To me, however, all you're really saying is that you're perfectly ok with both male and female dominants of the middle class, so long as the female dominants are very careful to express only the exact same needs and wants that middle class men do. The needs that are more common in women of all classes, due the economic inequality in our society, are NOT ok with you. Middle class men in this society seldom need money from their female submissives--they already have the bulk of that power. Personally, I've noticed that men have no claim to moral superiority over women when it comes to trading dominance and sex for money in other social classes, though. Male dominants that come from social classes without a lot of income actually produce the most brutal and abusive class of sexual "users" of all--pimps. But most of us here are very firmly middle class, and we don't have a lot of exposure to that little kettle of fish. [;)] Trading sex and dominance for money is a game for people on the low end of the economic stick--in our community, that end of the stick is held almost exclusively by women.

Venatrix -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 7:48:24 AM)
In all honesty, though, my take on this thread is that regardless of whether a dominant wants tribute or gifts or whatnot, the vast majority of male submissive posters on this thread have shown a rather marked streak of woman-hating, however much they might deny it. Only two posters have come off well: SSS and XYisInferior, and it's not because they are in favour of turning over their money to women, but, rather, their respectful attitude. Most of the rest of you seem to be advocating a "why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free" attitude, and are getting bent out of shape because there are some "cows" who want paying. Yes, the OP's first post was rather strident, but after almost 40 pages of responses, I can't help wondering if she really hasn't got the measure of submissive men, in general.

Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 7:52:40 AM)
But that is not right Shakti the fact that society has views does not mean that society dictates those views. My opinions on this subject are no more pre ordained than yours. My views on this thread are personal and you are right that I go to great pains to stress that, I cannot and do not attempt to speak for others. I have pointed out numerous times that if woman want their economic needs met that is fine but that I disagree with the method of tribute to achieve this end. I certainly disagree that those who do not tribute are lesser men than those that do. It is no different to men. If a man wants his domestic needs met then stating that to be worthy of a date with him you must first clean his house is demeaning and unpleasant. If a male dominant wanted his sexual needs met by me performing oral sex on him before he considered me worthy of his time I would think the man in no way worthy of my time and energy. My point is not that woman should not have their needs met but that this method of obtaining them is in my eyes unpleasant. I don't quite understand the part about the pimp Shakti so possibly I am replying here to a point you have not made. In my opinion a pimp is one of the lowest forms of life and should in no way be emulated. The fact that some men behave in a certain way should not be taken as justification for women to behave likewise.

Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 7:56:39 AM)
Venatrix I honestly don't see how any of my posts can be construes as women hating in any way, shape or form. If you've interpreted them in that way point out the offending passages and I will endeavor to do my best to explain them in a different fashion. I in no way hate women. The fact that the thread is approaching forty pages long is because their has been a debate going on between multiple male and female postes. i do not condemn the women on this thread for being misandric I do not think I should be portrayed as misogynistic.

Reigna -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 8:06:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama Male dominants that come from social classes without a lot of income actually produce the most brutal and abusive class of sexual "users" of all--pimps. I'd be interested to see how you unpack this statement. I'm not sure that I disagree with it, but I am sure it needs its own thread, as this one already is monstrous enough. Just curious.

cloudboy -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 8:15:35 AM)
You have to follow your own code in posting. Its a law of personal relations that opponents often internalize debate points as personal attacks. That's why one often avoids political and religious discussions at parties, family gatherings, and the office. Most people do not like to be challenged or cross examined; they take this as hostility. Fuck, how many wars have been started between cultures and peoples with different belief systems.....

Starbuck09 -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 8:24:35 AM)
Having said that Venatrix I will have to do so much later on as I off entertaining a young[ish] lady now. We're going to the botanical gardens followed by a hopefully fun couple of hours watching Bruno. I'll pay for both, including a large raspberry iceblast for her as usually she pinches mine halfway through a film, because I enjoy treating her though not because it is expected or demanded of me. If that attitude is interpreted as me being feaful of women or full of hatred towards them then I will live with it no matter how upsetting or offensive such judgements are.

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 8:27:50 AM)
quote: PeonForHer Starbuck, I think one of the reasons that this thread started on an acrimonious note then proceeded to get worse was because all sorts of views have been - and continue to be - lumped together, reduced, oversimplified and generally treated without the respect they deserve. quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix Most of the rest of you seem to be advocating a "why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free" attitude, and are getting bent out of shape because there are some "cows" who want paying. Actually, it was LadyHibiscus who said that I 'didn't need to pay the entrance fee'. The truth is, though, that I can't pay the entrance fee. Not because I'm broke (I'm not, fortunately), but because I'm not able to reconcile business mentality with romantic mentality. I cannot feel like I'm 'paying for love'. That runs true for my feelings about friends, too. quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Venatrix I honestly don't see how any of my posts can be construes as women hating in any way, shape or form. . Your view has been 'lumped in', per my comment above. This was an example.

NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 8:51:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama "But the fact remains that some men express their frustration and resentment toward women verbally, while some men do it physically. Both types of aggression are motivated by a sense of wounded entitlement, outrage and desire to put women "in their place" and take back a perceived loss of power or face. " Well I have to say we love your posts and I wanted to reiterate a comment that you had made. Umm, contrary to popular illusion~ here in "ask a mistress", some of the men answering here are not subs at all. Submit to a woman? Say what?? Look at how they bark when they see a woman getting what she wants and how she wants it. It's so plain to see by the bitter tone in their writings not to mention all the threads about women and finance relationships with their boys. Funny thing is some doms like DarkSteven seem to like women more than some of the regular posters here who claim to be subbys here in ask a mistress. So there ya go.

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:12:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Reigna quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama Male dominants that come from social classes without a lot of income actually produce the most brutal and abusive class of sexual "users" of all--pimps. I'd be interested to see how you unpack this statement. I'm not sure that I disagree with it, but I am sure it needs its own thread, as this one already is monstrous enough. Just curious. What the hell. I'll go for it. [;)] What the ruling classes do becomes legitimised in the end. What the richies do is morally OK, always - even though they'll often do the same thing, and in a much larger way, as those at the bottom of society. If a broke woman opens her legs for money in a porn film, she's a whore. If a rich and influential woman does it in a big Hollywood film, she's to be venerated. A pimp is 'someone who procures customers for whores' (WordWeb). Imagine calling the producers and directors of Basic Instinct 'pimps'. C'est la vie. You and I always end up telling each other what we already know, Reigna. [;)]

OttersSwim -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:15:50 AM)
It's great that we can talk about this subject for 37 pages....but the answer is really quite simple... Just send your money to me. Is there anyone more deserving? I don't think so...[;)] kkthxbai

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:20:25 AM)
Don't be ridiculous, Otters. I deserve everyone's money more than you do because my backside looks more like a shelf than yours does. Pyro said so.

Venatrix -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:23:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim It's great that we can talk about this subject for 37 pages....but the answer is really quite simple... Just send your money to me. Is there anyone more deserving? I don't think so...[;)] kkthxbai Actually, Otters, if there were a man on these boards I'd send my money to, it would be you. I know you'd spend it on some quality time with your delightful mistress that you would both enjoy. I inadvertently left you out of my earlier comment regarding upstanding men here, and for that I offer my apologies.

NoreenSwan -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:24:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix In all honesty, though, my take on this thread is that regardless of whether a dominant wants tribute or gifts or whatnot, the vast majority of male submissive posters on this thread have shown a rather marked streak of woman-hating, however much they might deny it. Only two posters have come off well: SSS and XYisInferior, and it's not because they are in favour of turning over their money to women, but, rather, their respectful attitude. Most of the rest of you seem to be advocating a "why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free" attitude, and are getting bent out of shape because there are some "cows" who want paying. Yes, the OP's first post was rather strident, but after almost 40 pages of responses, I can't help wondering if she really hasn't got the measure of submissive men, in general. I think it's a perfectly valid sentiment. Truly nice people are nice to everyone and have respect all the time even if they do happen to disagree. You're experiencing what soooooooooooo many so called "sub" men come out on collarme and rant about: a woman stating what she wants and getting what she wants. And it's her getting the ultimate power from her sub: his money. Mainly all subs posting in ask a mistress are not submissive, they're bottoms who are iso a girl to serve them. I will say its off the charts in how much they come off as being pissy that a woman getting what she wants and how she wants it too. Lets flip this and ask do girl subs rant against male doms who say what they like and how they want things done in their way? So why do so called "sub" men get utterly emotionally outraged when a woman states what she wants and how she wants it? They don't like her POWER. Is it shallow she expects money from her subby? Is it shallow a male dom expects sex from his subby? I don't see a difference or why so called "sub" men feel bothered by women stating what they want. They don't like strong, opinionated and smart women and it shows. Look at all the disrespecting male posters in this thread and its easy to see who they are. On the flip side, I could go on and on with this but I don't have the time nor energy to do so. I've met a handful of guys here that stand out in my mind as being so special and unique and respectful in their personalities and comments and postings and it isn't difficult to figure out in any way. SmartStrongSub Aiden XYinferior pyroaquatic Politesub53 I could go on but I won't.

OttersSwim -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:26:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Don't be ridiculous, Otters. I deserve everyone's money more than you do because my backside looks more like a shelf than yours does. Pyro said so. Dunno P...looks to me like you got little aliens growing under your skin that are about to burst out. Might want to have a flame thrower on hand if the little beasties get loose...just sayin'... sendyourcashtomenoworelse...orelsewhatyoumayask...wellidunnobutitisprobablyprettyscary...yea...besttojustsendmecashnow..

PeonForHer -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:28:24 AM)
. . . . And you are British - very nearly. [;)]

Venatrix -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:28:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Starbuck09 Having said that Venatrix I will have to do so much later on as I off entertaining a young[ish] lady now. We're going to the botanical gardens followed by a hopefully fun couple of hours watching Bruno. I'll pay for both, including a large raspberry iceblast for her as usually she pinches mine halfway through a film, because I enjoy treating her though not because it is expected or demanded of me. If that attitude is interpreted as me being feaful of women or full of hatred towards them then I will live with it no matter how upsetting or offensive such judgements are. Starbuck, I hope you've had a lovely evening, regardless of who pays. But you are not getting my point. None of this is about money, as far as I'm concerned. It's about this whole crap that there's only one way to dominate, and that's without asking for anything in return, which is just as offensive as being told there's only one way to submit, and it is because of the latter that I am not in agreement with the OP.

OttersSwim -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 9:29:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Venatrix quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim It's great that we can talk about this subject for 37 pages....but the answer is really quite simple... Just send your money to me. Is there anyone more deserving? I don't think so...[;)] kkthxbai Actually, Otters, if there were a man on these boards I'd send my money to, it would be you. I know you'd spend it on some quality time with your delightful mistress that you would both enjoy. I inadvertently left you out of my earlier comment regarding upstanding men here, and for that I offer my apologies. Awww....thank you Miss Venatrix! That means a lot to me. [:)]

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