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ElanSubdued -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (8/28/2009 12:26:53 PM)
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ShaktiSama, Aidan, Sea, SaharahEve, Reigna, NoreenSwan, and anyone I missed;
I appreciate that people took their time to ponder my words and write. At this stage in the thread, bitterness and acrimonious posting is spreading rampantly. I see little point in adding more to this already unpalatably spicy stew as none of the issues are going to gain greater understanding in this climate. Thus, I'm choosing not to participate further. Yes, some may infer I'm walking away because I lack debating skills and historical/statistical knowledge to further my points of view - and they may be correct to a degree. More accurately though, I don't have time to engage presently nor the desire to do so.
With that as a precursor, it behooves me to add a few parting thoughts. :-)
Personally, I think issues like economic gender equality, gender equality in general, access to education, and supporting children are far too complex and situational to be illuminated in any meaningful way by the (often) binary pronouncements made in this thread. What I will say is this: in our current, modern world, these issues aren't simple and are rarely biased one way.
I've experienced women being promoted and paid far more than equivalent, male counterparts because a company has a mandate to show they are gender neutral. On the flip side, I've experience men in the "boys club" of their companies being promoted when there were multiple, female candidates far more qualified and appropriate. This is only one example, but it shows that tipping the scales too far in the reverse direction isn't much better than leaving them as they were. (On the positive side of things, one could argue that a female biased hiring policy allows women some economic catch up. However, this comes at the cost of creating reverse gender discrimination.)
As a seed for others to discuss, I'll suggest that seemingly our current generation has very different expectations from the previous. In my parents' generation, many women didn't expect to work (at least, not in the sense of being "career woman" and of being a significant, financial provider of the household). Likewise, men expected to be financial providers for their partners. In our current world, these expectations have entirely changed. Women want their own careers and financial independence. Men often want a partner who is equally able to contribute and/or to be able to do the roles women used to. In the case of the latter, this means some female partners are the key financial providers in their households or, minimally, important contributors.
We've seen housing prices rise drastically. There are many factors at play here and inflation is only one. The global economy and money dumping is another. (i.e. taking money from one economic system and putting it to use elsewhere where it has greater and simultaneously unfair advantage.) Here's one that pertains to economic gender equality: both men and women are now educating themselves, holding career jobs, and being paid more equally. This means household income and earning potential has gone up and with this, housing prices have risen (because they've been able to).
Alright. A few direct replies and I'm signing out!
quote:
ShaktiSama:
The fact that things have improved from a previous nadir of absolute abject subjugation of women does not mean that Everything Is All Better Now and We've Had Enough Equality.
Shakti: Agreed. Also, I hope you didn't think my previous post to you was an attack. Far from it. I have great respect for your intelligence, personage, life expriances, and points of view. :-)
quote:
PeonForHer:
I think one of the reasons that this thread started on an acrimonious note then proceeded to get worse was because all sorts of views have been *and continue to be* lumped together, reduced, oversimplified and generally treated without the respect they deserve.
Peon: Also agreed. :-)
quote:
ShaktiSama:
Male dominants that come from social classes without a lot of income actually produce the most brutal and abusive class of sexual "users" of all -- pimps. But most of us here are very firmly middle class, and we don't have a lot of exposure to that little kettle of fish. :-) Trading sex and dominance for money is a game for people on the low end of the economic stick -- in our community, that end of the stick is held almost exclusively by women.
Reigna:
I'd be interested to see how you unpack this statement. I'm not sure that I disagree with it, but I am sure it needs its own thread, as this one already is monstrous enough. Just curious.
Reigna: I'm curious about this too. And, in as much as I'm sure this will rattle many, I simply must ask: why would people view women who choose this path in any better light than their male, pimping counterparts? Yep. Just curious.
quote:
NoreenSwan to ShaktiSama:
Well I have to say we love your posts and I wanted to reiterate a comment that you had made.
Umm, contrary to popular *illusion*~ here in "ask a mistress", some of the men answering here are not subs at all. Submit to a woman? Say what?? Look at how they bark when they see a woman getting what she wants and how she wants it.
It's so plain to see by the bitter tone in their writings not to mention all the threads about women and finance relationships with their boys.
Funny thing is some doms like DarkSteven seem to like women more than some of the regular posters here who claim to be subbys here in ask a mistress. So there ya go.
NoreenSwan: Ah. The omnipresent, "solves all dom/sub debates", "not a sub" card. Nicely played, but I'm not buying it! :-) Bitterness is bitterness, regardless of the gender it comes from. I see plenty of bitterness coming from all genders in this thread. If someone puts forth ideas for discussion, people participate (some respectfully, politely, with great zest, and to the best of their ability, and others not so much so). The BDSM persuasion of the participants is irrelevant and may or may not be reflected. Oh and yes, I agree: +1 to DarkSteven. I enjoy his posts a great deal.
quote:
Aidan:
It's not necessarily that the price of education is outright better for men, but men do have an easier time of getting scholarships in various fields. Mistress is got Her Bachelor's and is working on Her Master's in a science, a science that has been predominantly male for it's short span of history. A quick look at the number of recipients for scholarships, grants and research funding compared to applicants will show that there is a heavy weighting towards males, by predominantly male professors.
I've recognized since my college career started that though there are more women in the school-space now, they still have a harder time of things. Majority numbers don't always translate to change when the ruling minority (in this case, academia and administration) are still locked in the old ways.
Aidan: I think there is some merit in what you've written. You and I live in different countries and yours is significantly larger in population than mine so this may account for our differing experiences. Where I live and went to school, men and women are granted scholarships reasonably evenly. What isn't even (yet) is the number of applicants of each gender. Some fields are more heavily sought by women and others by men. In my area of study (computer science), we had about ten women in the program as compared to hundreds of men. Comparatively, in the fields of agriculture and biological sciences, there were far more women than men. Honestly, I don't think these differences are a result of bias in financing opportunities or of bias by the institution, but I could be mistaken. As attitudes and expectations of the gender groups change, I think we'll see more crosspollination. There are also many programs, research grants, etc. that are exclusively the domain of women. (i.e. only women may apply for them.) This seeming unfairness is an attempt to encourage equality and I think it's working. Does this mean we've reached equality where I live? Undoubtedly not, but we're moving in that direction and there are certainly lots of opportunities available for both men and women who wish to educate themselves.
SaharahEve: while I didn't quote you, thank you for your most thoughtful reply.
undergroundsea: Like SaharahEve, I didn't quote you, but I always enjoy your posts. Thanks for keeping such a level head and contributing the way you have.
quote:
ElanSubdued:
More accurately though, I don't have time to engage presently nor the desire to do so.
*laughs at self due to the oxymoron* :-)
Elan.
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