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ShaktiSama -> RE: BOIZ, LEMME TELL YOU HOW IT'S DONE....THAT TIRED OLD TOPIC, "TRIBUTE"..... (9/2/2009 8:04:11 PM)
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ORIGINAL: cloudboy
First of all, feminism is a pretty amorphous term, but one way of looking at it is to treat the sexes equally. So, how exactly can you reconcile equality with female supremacy, tributes, and D/S?
BDSM is about personal relationships and fantasies. Male supremacist, male dominant, and male-dominant-economic relationships can exist in our community unchallenged--there is an entire sub-forum on these boards alone for the Male Supremacist fantasy called Gor, for example. Equality in this case would simply be a matter of equal time, equal treatment and equal tolerance for female dominance in all its myriad forms. The real elephant in the room, so far as I'm concerned, is the way that male dominants and female submissives are given much greater latitude in this community to explore their fantasies, dynamics and relationships, while hetero female dominants and male submissives have to live in a stadium full of rusty beartraps which will damn near take your leg off if you dare to take a step.
Tribute and financial domination are just bdsm fetishistic behavior. Nothing more...and nothing less. If you don't want to give tribute to a woman, or to support her economically, because it turns you off--don't. But that does not translate into a god-given right to dictate your squicks and fetishes to everyone else, much less sit in judgment and tell all women, including the ones that are violently incompatible with you, what they are allowed to talk about, want, and need from a submissive partner. That is not your right and it is beyond the vale of the tiresome. These women know what they want and they know what their men like. If they don't, they will be punished by failed relationships, like any selfish lover. Failed relationships are all the punishment that is ever required for romantic malfeasance. They don't need the Male Sub Inquisition to fire up the auto da fe because the desires and needs they have are condemned as heretical whether their submissive partners are having fun or not.
We are all adults here. No domme can compel a fully adult, rational man of ANY orientation to open his wallet against his own will within the framework of bdsm. If he is really being forced or compelled, what we're talking about is not bdsm--it's just another boring garden variety criminal offense like rape or assault, and the people we should call are the real police, not the Thought Police.
An adult consenting submissive or bottom is always giving his consent for a reason. The thing about threads like this is that the Money Tabernacle Choir is so shrill and vitriolic that both sides of a consenting bdsm dynamic are drowned out. As if their contentment within their OWN mutually consenting bdsm activities is meaningless to the issue! Nothing could be more perfectly horseshit.
If you're not the guy whose libido is served by this fetishistic behavior--groovy. But get this through your skull, if nothing else: SOME GUYS ARE VERY INTO THIS. I get emails like this quite often, with people responding to a female dominant profile that isn't even looking for a regular submissive, much less a "Money Pig". If I had any potential to enjoy this fetish, these guys might very well have activated it by expressing this particular need for humiliation. My submissives often bring out new facets of my dominance by the nature of their submissive/masochistic desires.
Imho, equality is achieved in this community by recognizing that male submissives and masochists are just as capable of willingly and happily playing the "victim" as female ones, and women are just as capable as men are of playing the dominant role in these fantasies. Equality is not achieved by forcing everyone to wear a unitard and live in a bland vanilla authoritarian nightmare where all choices are inflicted by others, and no one ever gets another kinky erection again.
As for reconciling D/S with equality? I would think that everyone who participates in a consenting D/S relationship or tryst has crossed over this hurdle long ago. Seriously, this is the kindergarten level of D/S comprehension. "I'm a submissive masochist. Being beaten, humiliated and used makes me incredibly hot and deliriously happy. Maybe as a rational consenting adult I should take some responsibility for these needs and find a person who can meet them. Maybe in the process I could take some kind of human interest in my partner and help them achieve happiness too."
Wow, that was a hard one, eh?
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Yes you can argue that BDSM is about personal choices and self determination -- and that these are components of feminism --- but ironically this was the point Sea argued and made and you dismissed it.
Sea's argument is that because women are human beings who can make choices, that all societal constraints, preconditions and problems can be ignored. He is essentially explaining why he feels no need to empathize or try to understand women that he regards as his moral inferiors. He is defending a perceived right to judge and condemn.
What I dismiss and reject is that right to judge and condemn. I am all in favor of personal choices and I have affirmed Sea's choice and your personal choice many times--that is, the right to choose NOT to tribute, because that is the correct choice for YOU.
The fact that you have a right to say "no" to any power exchange for yourself, however, doesn not mean that you have a right to dominate other women and men socially. Your version of submission and love is no more Twue than anyone else's.
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Frankly, I think you use "feminism" as a bludgeon to put men on the defensive when in fact the subject matter (BDSM) is more about personal choices and individual ethics.
Frankly, I think you use your middle class white male morality as a bludgeon to put women and other men on the defensive and make them reluctant to be truthful about their own needs, desires and fantasies. Your self-righteous anti-moneysex Puritanism is the real joke of this and many other threads.
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(How one person should tread another.)
You have no right to tell any woman how to treat ANY submissive who is not YOU. Nor do you have any right to tell ANY other submissive how he should want and enjoy being treated.
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You seem to be arguing that ideological concerns should govern individual decision-making.
On the contrary. But reading comprehension really doesn't seem to be your strong point, so not much point in repeating myself. Those who are capable of understanding the points I have made have already done so.
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One last point. If women wrote that some men are wife beaters and abusive -- this is nothing more than an accurate fact. Its not right of me to try and characterize the women who point this out as "bashing men." I think your posting is very guilty of making this mistake.
If women were posting threads every other week complaining about how All Men Want Is to Beat and Rape Me, and using these threads as an opportunity to vent about male sexual violence, how prevalent it is in society, how tired they are of thuggish male profiles, and how all the male doms who don't cater to their romantic fantasies were actually just thugs and fakes? I would think that they were very guilty of bashing men. Sorry, but this really would work the other way just as easily.
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P.S. I know TM thinks generosity comes in many forms -- and a positive reading of her OP is to model that form of giving as best as one can.
I think it's also relevant to note one small aside that TM made in a follow-up post. I seem to recall her saying that when she chose to be with this man, he WASN'T obscenely wealthy.
I would suspect that part of the reason he feels comfortable pampering and showering her with gifts now is that he has already received the necessary proof long ago that he was loved and wanted for himself. [;)]
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