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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 3:48:28 PM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KCalli

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Can you live just fine on your own, but do you thrive -- are you at your best -- when completely controlled by him?

If the word weren't "slave" -- which has a history full of human misery -- but something else, like "ubersub," would you be happy being called that, and would you think it fit?

Being a slave (in my exeprience) has little to do with being controlled.
Dominants who attempt to control me get short shrift.
Being a slave is ultimately about my STATUS in relationship to my Master. As slave I do not need to be controlled. I know by instinct in relationship.

I agree with the above. I would also add, that in my mind the difference between sub and slave are these: A) slave may be a natural relationship progression from being sub. which may take years to develop, if it even does. B) in my mind, if I were to own a slave, I would be absolutely responsible for that person. Mind, body, health, etc. etc.etc. whereas a sub still has some autonomy on more personal levels (such as working outside, and getting out and about.) Many people tend to view slaves as chattal, which is their view. Mine is slightly different. I chose this person for a particular reason. To me he/she would be valued property to be cared for properly to be able to service my needs for a long time to come. Sort of (here is the mechanic coming out in me) like I am not going to spend a gazillion dollars molding and tweaking my 1934 Plymouth Business coupe into the hot rod I want just to drive it off a cliff. Doesn't make sense to me. A car is still a car, and a slave a slave, but it doesn't mean that I can't take care of my treasure. That is just my humble opinion.

Is one higher than the other in some way? I know I am deeply treasured by him and he would never bring me intentional harm and has yet to bring me to unintentional harm either. It is a safe place. I guess that is really what matters.

lovingpet

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 3:53:49 PM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

I think confusion reigns because "the dividing line" in order for there to be a dividing line the concepts have to either run on the same path or run from a greater to less than fashion in some way so there can be at some point a line dividing the two.

There is no line because they are two very separate and distinct entities so to speak. One does not create or support the other. However sometimes they DO overlap. This isn't a line then between the two but a meshing of the two. Not all slaves are or ever were or will be submisives, not all submissives are or ever were or will be slaves. However sometimes they do have overlaps.

To me they however do stand alone. To me, you would have to define each of them and then perhaps see if they overlap for you and how and what perspectives are changing from one to another.

angel

I agree that there is overlap, but the two entities retain their own characteristics. I guess what I am wanting to know is what the characteristics are of each from the perspective of others. I need (and I do mean need) to know what kind of person would occupy each and what their D counterpart would be like and what each relationship would look like both from within and from the outside. I also don't know that I understand the mindset behind each separate from each other either.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 3:55:40 PM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Like you, I am more interested in being HIS than what he or I call me. With his background, however, I feel like slave is a loaded word for him. I have no clue if I am up to the challenge of his expectations.

lovingpet

Seriously answer this loving hun, if he didn't think you were already there would be be calling you it? You must have been fulfilling his expectations without even realising.

*soft happy tears*

I didn't think about it like that. Thanks sweetie!

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 3:57:56 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Can you live just fine on your own, but do you thrive -- are you at your best -- when completely controlled by him?

If the word weren't "slave" -- which has a history full of human misery -- but something else, like "ubersub," would you be happy being called that, and would you think it fit?

Being a slave (in my exeprience) has little to do with being controlled.
Dominants who attempt to control me get short shrift.
Being a slave is ultimately about my STATUS in relationship to my Master. As slave I do not need to be controlled. I know by instinct in relationship.

Could you expand upon your idea of identity by status please?

lovingpet

Status is the honor or prestige attached to one's position in society (one's social position) or within personal relationship. Social status, the position or rank of a person or group within the stratification system, can be determined two ways. One can earn their social status by their own achievements, which is known as achieved status. Status therefore can be earned by merit. This may be known as a meritocracy. Educational achievement is an example of this and so is achievement within the work place. Alternatively, a person can be placed in the stratification system by their inherited position, which is called ascribed status.

An example of ascribed status is the caste system. In a strictly ascribed society it is not possible to change one’s ascribed status. I am no expert on Gorean culture, but since you motioned it: ~The women of a given caste, it should be noted, often do not engage in caste work. For example, a woman in the Metalworkers does not, commonly, work at the forge, nor is a woman of the Builders likely to be found supervising the construction of fortifications. Caste membership, for Goreans, is generally a simple matter of birth; it is not connected necessarily with the performance of certain skills, nor the attainment of a given level of proficiency in such skills.~ http://www.goreanculture.com/fw.html

It seems to me that in general bdsm has adopted and co-opted many of those aspects of ascribed status including the generally accepted term ''slave''' most often used to indicate a strongly asymmetrical status within BDSM relationships. Slave status may be symbolized also by: tattoo or branding, collar, by the Master’s right to impose physical punishment, the use of a gag or corsetry, used as a form of objectification and humiliation as a means of being reminded of their low status.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/15/2009 3:59:41 PM >

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 4:45:53 PM

lovingpet

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And as I recall these statuses can also be further specified into internal and external manifestations (ie: a status before the "community" whether it be work, country, or "lifestyle" vs a status within the dynamic of a given relationship or other smaller social group such as a family).

I think it is this idea of "low" that gets me partially too. I don't know how it all jives with me and my own hard earned self confidence. I had to come a long way to acquire it and I'm not so fond of doing away with it.

Oh, lets throw some other stuff out there. In the theory of natural order, what are the implications for the self and ego of the slave under that premise?

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 4:48:56 PM

pyroaquatic

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MMmmmm...... HMMmm.... ?

Mmmhmmm mmmmhmmm....

Ah!

Bound to another human beings logic, rules, and order.

Willing to let go of yourself for their happiness, and finding happiness in that.

The motive that presses me on is love.

Words are loaded with contextual meanings, no?

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 4:51:23 PM

lovingpet

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Yes they are, and that is kind of my fear.....

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 5:01:36 PM

MaamJay

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I have a problem with labels. I am both Domme and sub yet I don't exactly switch, I work best when both sides are flowing freely at the same time, so friends coined the term Duality for me. Plenty would say that as I have such a strong Dominant side, there is no way i could be a slave to anyone, yet that is the term that Master prefers. Yet neither of us see it in terms of property, though we do speak of ownership insofar as it is possible to own a thinking, feeling human being. i think i started out submitting to Him (even though i naturally called Him Master, not my Dom, and He HATES Sir!), but within about 12 months i began surrendering to Him (and there is, for me, a difference). And that's when i think i started to become His slave.

So, what difference do i see between submitting and surrendering? It's most to do with level of consciousness and active decision-making for me. When i was submitting to Him, each new thing was looked at and thought about, albeit sometimes only very fleetingly, and a conscious decision was made to do it for Him. i stress that this wasn't to do with play activities, it was daily life things that gave me most pause for thought. The first time i didn't immediately accept an invitation from work colleagues to a clothes party but said "i'll have to check and let you know later" was quite confronting to me. Was this how i wanted to spend the rest of my life, having to ask Him if i could go? Wasn't i a mature enough woman to make up my own mind? Was this something i wanted to yield/could yield? i decided to give it a try ... and it didn't backfire on me. His decisions were totally appropriate. i felt heard. i could trust Him ... so i did. Gradually there were more and more of those confronting moments, the decision was made to submit ... and that choice was vindicated. The work may not yet be "totally done" though the pace of new things has slowed considerably ... 2.5 years ago i gave Him total control of the money from the sale of my old house to buy the new one in His name (had considerable advantages in doing so but it was scary nonetheless ... though less so for me when i realised it was scaring Him just as much!). And about 18 months ago i submitted musical control to Him and that was one of the toughest yet as i have been the leader of every other musical endeavour i have ever undertaken in my nearly 50 years since i began playing! i'm sure there will be another issue to confront sometime ... but these days i am equally sure i will submit, simply because His track record is so good.

So these days in most things, i have surrendered. No longer do i actively weigh things up and make a choice about submitting, i just surrender to His will. i want to do what makes Him happy, what pleases Him. The time that sticks in both of our minds as to how deep that ran was on my birthday 2 years ago. He took me to the cheesecake shop and said "Pick what you want for your birthday cake". i stood there dithering because i know that i love caramel cheesecake which He isn't overly fond of, whereas He loves chocolate (and would prefer the mud cake over the cheesecake). i just couldn't decide ... because what i WANTED was to make Him happy (and therefore should have bought the mud cake), but i sensed that He also wanted me to have my choice. It was all too hard! He got a bit frustrated and the lady was giving us funny looks, so we went outside for a bit and i burst into tears. Eventually i was able to explain the problem. He thought for a few moments and then looked into my eyes and said "I love you, and today is your special day, what would make Me happiest is for you to choose the flavour you would prefer to eat" ... whereupon i went straight back in and bought the caramel cheesecake! A little thing maybe, but often it is in the little things that we truly see the depth of ourselves.

loving pet, it is eminently possible that it is in the little things that your Master is seeing the slave within you. If you trust Him and you seem to do so, try to put aside the fear and go with curiosity. Try the name on for size. For me there is a vast difference between being "a" slave and "His" slave, as i am slave to no one else, only Him. I'm Domme to just about everyone else LOL!
I wish you the best in the continuation of your journey ... and it's absolutely fine with it being a journey, not a destination!

Mostly violet[A] speaking ... aka Maam Jay

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 5:05:40 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

And as I recall these statuses can also be further specified into internal and external manifestations (ie: a status before the "community" whether it be work, country, or "lifestyle" vs a status within the dynamic of a given relationship or other smaller social group such as a family).

I think it is this idea of "low" that gets me partially too. I don't know how it all jives with me and my own hard earned self confidence. I had to come a long way to acquire it and I'm not so fond of doing away with it.

Oh, lets throw some other stuff out there. In the theory of natural order, what are the implications for the self and ego of the slave under that premise?

lovingpet

I can't speak for others. And I won't speak from a therapist's point of view or spout traditional analytical perpsective.... needless to say most people think of the ego as having predominantly a defensive and perceptual role, as in the former warding off the innate and somewhat destructive instinctual drives of the so called id and the latter pertaining to the maintainance of 'reality'.
The 'ego' has been reified by most psychologicak approaches and although no-one has ever found an ego or been able to isolate its biochemical activity we now of the ego by its absense so to speak. During altered states of consciousness and chemical disease.
We also speak of the ego in a social rather than psychological manner. Thues we could agree that the ego is a function much like the personaliy. WE talk of 'small man's ego' or being egocentric or having an inflated in much this way.
And so...with regard to status and ego. Don't most of us conflaye ego with high status?
So therefore the corollary of low status is someow a deflation of the ego?
All that I know is the lower I go the higher my status. See: if the ego equated with power in anyway then to the extent to which I agree to hand that power over, the term is surrender, to the extent to which I agree to surrender my ego...that is the extent to which I become 'powerful' as a slave.
When I was enslaved (and I reckon I have had four Masters to date)....then to the extent to which I surrendered, then I empowered my Master.
To tie in with my earlier post the status of slave is ascribed and it is ascribed by the Master (not ny society at large). It is not an 'amount' of status but it is a QUALITY of status, dependent I would say upon the Master's ability to ellicit qualities inherent in their slave. Good Masters maketh good slaves.
I can think of no higher status other than being a living representation of a Master's power.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/15/2009 5:08:34 PM >

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 5:15:51 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

So, what difference do i see between submitting and surrendering? It's most to do with level of consciousness and active decision-making for me.

I tend to agree and I find it useful to think of surrender as being made up of component parts...like little links of sumission, little links of submitting behaviours.
Although I think of surrender as being total...the bigger picture...I think of submission as being idscrete behaviiurs.
That is why surrendering would often make submitting far more difficult because I knew that I had agreed to surrender.
Service; no problems.
Things like waiting. Things like being separated. Things like procuring another slave (or sub). Things like wihdrawal of sex (as disapproval) The whole apsect of pinishment and disapproval.
Damn I don't submit easily within the context of total surrender.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 5:42:16 PM

lovingpet

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I have done so many similiar things along the way that were indications to you of the slave within surfacing little by little. I have asked permission for things that seemed trite and silly at the time. I have suggested places to eat based on what I know he likes to eat instead of what I was in the mood for. I obey limits and standards and such he has in place for me even though it seems strange to others around me that I would do this for someone with whom I do not currently share an address. I have stepped out into territory that, as far as I was concerned, the only thing standing between me and a free falling crash was him. One of the key moments was in the middle of a caning session when he kept asking me if I wanted more. I didn't. I was to the point where every blow was just mind shattering and I desperately wanted it to be over. Did I ask him to stop? No, I asked for more. I asked for more until he was done. He knew my physical limits even though in the midst of it I wasn't sure of them, and that was the only security I had. I told him this later and that is when the word slave surfaced. He had teased at it before, but this time he was sincere.

I have no clue how to tell this man no. I feel like I have no need. In the end, just like everything else he has seen in me, he will be right in this. I have no doubt of that either. I just have a lot of coming to terms (pun included). Thank you for sharing some insight into your own personal journey with me.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 5:55:33 PM

lovingpet

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It has been my understanding the concept of "ego" is actually the set of processes that occur primarily in the frontal lobe of the brain responsible for impulse control and perceiving social propriety. Meh.... Inconsequential to the overall conversation.

I am none to thrilled and at the same time all too "curious" at the thought of ego (as just a generic term for self concept, whathaveyou) diminishing as the evidence of HEIGHTENED status of surrender. Is it really self or is it will that is being abdicated? Or both? Does this mean I become inferior to others or to him? Are my partner and I not equals (though deliberately weighting the power structure in his favor)? What does it mean, in this context, to BE inferior or unequal?

Yup, I'm a mess! I'm a happy, contented wired up mess! LOL

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 5:56:47 PM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

So, what difference do i see between submitting and surrendering? It's most to do with level of consciousness and active decision-making for me.

Damn I don't submit easily within the context of total surrender.
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Out of curiosity, do you have any theories as to why this is? It seems antithetical.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 6:02:38 PM

kiwisub12

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There are times i don't care for the term "slave". It seems to suggest an element of force that is absent from my Sir and i's relationship. A slave obeys commands because if they don't, they are punished.
I don't obey from a place of fear - i obey from a place of serenity and right-ness. For me to obey is the way i am made. Its the right thing to do. Infact, sometimes it isn't even that i am obeying - its more of that i become aware of Sirs needs, and meet them - because that is what i do with him.

There isn't, however, a better term for what we have. So what is a person to do???????????????/ *shrugs shoulders* I answer to sub, slave, girl, slut or whatever he wants to call me.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 6:23:15 PM

MaamJay

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Interesting viewpoint kiwi. I don't have any connotations of fear or punishment intermeshed with my view of slave. Master and i don't have a punishment dynamic at all, heck i think He has only threatened corner time twice that i remember ... and the threat was more than enough to have me pull my head in and pipe down and actually listen to Him. i've submitted and surrendered out of love, out of desire to please, not out of fear or punishment. And as a Domme, I would treat My sub/slave the same way. But I do get how historically, punishment and fear could be tied in with slavery. It's been the predominant image in books and movies. Though I'm not sure it always was.

I say that because My traditional thinking on slavery was shaken years ago (long before I discovered bdsm) when I heard this song sung by Joan Baez. Not sure who wrote it and the albums and covers are in storage. (Dear Me, almost left it at that, then I thought ... better Google it LMAO!). From the sources I found, seems as though she did! Here's the words:

Lincoln Freed Me Today (The Slave)
Been a slave most all my life
So's my kids, and so's my wife
I've been working on the Colonel's farm
Ain't been mistreated, ain't done no harm
I'll be a slave to my grave
No need of me being free

Recollect when I was just fourteen
Freedom used to be my biggest dream
I'm older now, lot wiser too
If I was free what would I do
The Colonel's been right good to me
He's taken care of my family

The Colonel rode the buggy in from town
Hitched the horse and called us all around
Said he couldn't keep us here no more
I saw a tear as he walked toward the door
Oh Dear God, what did he say?
Now I am free to go my way

Maam Jay aka violet[A] happily Master's slave
Edited to add the title

< Message edited by MaamJay -- 8/15/2009 6:24:24 PM >

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 6:28:17 PM

lovingpet

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I don't know. This is probably the least "forced" relationship I have ever had. I don't feel like our dynamic is fueled by fear. I do know that it comes very natural to me to obey and serve HIM. And as MaamJay pointed out, that is the key difference and the only reason things work at all. He has somehow had the ability to bring these traits to the fore in our relationship. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot in the to obey, submit, consent departments anymore. We just are. It flows. Like my title says, it's a very natural, organic kind of dynamic. I don't think the name really matters, but the expectations do.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 6:40:52 PM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
it's a very natural, organic kind of dynamic.

Then why name it? Or... why not name it something only the two of you organically share, like you being "His Granolaslut."

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 6:41:30 PM

littlewonder

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The difference for me has always been....

submissive..I still have a choice and it won't affect our relationship.

slave...my one and only choice is to stay or leave.

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 6:42:00 PM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
it's a very natural, organic kind of dynamic.

Then why name it? Or... why not name it something only the two of you organically share, like you being "His Granolaslut."

Doubleposting like a doofus, and Edited to add: I can see the Recommitment Ceremony now!

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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 6:43:55 PM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaamJay

Lincoln Freed Me Today (The Slave)
Been a slave most all my life
So's my kids, and so's my wife
I've been working on the Colonel's farm
Ain't been mistreated, ain't done no harm
I'll be a slave to my grave
No need of me being free

Recollect when I was just fourteen
Freedom used to be my biggest dream
I'm older now, lot wiser too
If I was free what would I do
The Colonel's been right good to me
He's taken care of my family

The Colonel rode the buggy in from town
Hitched the horse and called us all around
Said he couldn't keep us here no more
I saw a tear as he walked toward the door
Oh Dear God, what did he say?
Now I am free to go my way

Maam Jay aka violet[A] happily Master's slave
Edited to add the title

That speaks to me and how I feel about him. I am sooooo unnerved by the proponderance of evidence! LOL

Can't we go strictly theoretical?????

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