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RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 9:23:33 PM

sweetsub1957

Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

What's really important is how it is defined between you and the person on the other side of the kneel. Knowing what that word, and what it inspires when used by your Master, means to you. When you hear him say it, do you hear it with your ears, or with a slave's heart?

LadyPact, You always have it so "together." What really matters is how the D-type and the s-type in the relationship define it. No one else's definitions really matter, as there are so many out there, many conflicting.

Sir & I both see submissive and slave as existing on a continuum.....which one someone is is a matter of the degree of submission. But even though I would do anything for Him, trust Him always to make the best decisions, even though I've been told I have a slave's heart, the word "slave" just scares the hell outta me.

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

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In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 81

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 9:48:16 PM

Missokyst

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Joined: 9/9/2006
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I see a distinct difference between slave and sub, at least for me. I choose submission, but I have been a slave. As a slave my own welfare, safety, emotional and mental safe gaurds were put on the back burner. The best way to describe it was an episode I saw once on the old star trek series. There was a woman who was an empath that could heal, but not without risk herself. There was always the potential that she might not recover as she took on the pain of another.

In slave mindset, I will do things for my mate, and sometimes even when they are no longer in my life no matter if it hurts me. I gave one of my x's my car even though I had to walk because he needed it. I found my first x another submissive years after we had lived together and loved each other. I still loved him but his needs were more important than my feelings. With the current x, I am still finding my way around how to not take that step, because the pain is too much. I chose after my first X, never to let myself reach that level of sacrifice again. It is too hard.

So I chose submission instead. For me it is a constant battle to remind myself not to walk down that road again. But in all likelihood if he needed me, or was in danger in some way I would be there walking in front of a bullet to protect him. Which is stupid as he has a mate who is just as much in love with him as I ever was. It is destructive for me to feel this way, I know it. Slavery is too much, I give too much.. the pain is beyond what I know I can handle. No one should sacrifice years of their life because you cannot remove that invisible shackle that keeps you in bondage.

I will not let myself dwell in the mentality of slavery beyond that which I cannot abandon as my personality. I make myself move forward, date, play, work, run groups, ect so I do not fall into the trap, which for me is slavery.

This is not everyones view of slavery, but for me it is deadly.

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 82

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/15/2009 10:19:50 PM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I see a distinct difference between slave and sub, at least for me. I choose submission, but I have been a slave. As a slave my own welfare, safety, emotional and mental safe gaurds were put on the back burner. The best way to describe it was an episode I saw once on the old star trek series. There was a woman who was an empath that could heal, but not without risk herself. There was always the potential that she might not recover as she took on the pain of another.

In slave mindset, I will do things for my mate, and sometimes even when they are no longer in my life no matter if it hurts me. I gave one of my x's my car even though I had to walk because he needed it. I found my first x another submissive years after we had lived together and loved each other. I still loved him but his needs were more important than my feelings. With the current x, I am still finding my way around how to not take that step, because the pain is too much. I chose after my first X, never to let myself reach that level of sacrifice again. It is too hard.

So I chose submission instead. For me it is a constant battle to remind myself not to walk down that road again. But in all likelihood if he needed me, or was in danger in some way I would be there walking in front of a bullet to protect him. Which is stupid as he has a mate who is just as much in love with him as I ever was. It is destructive for me to feel this way, I know it. Slavery is too much, I give too much.. the pain is beyond what I know I can handle. No one should sacrifice years of their life because you cannot remove that invisible shackle that keeps you in bondage.

I will not let myself dwell in the mentality of slavery beyond that which I cannot abandon as my personality. I make myself move forward, date, play, work, run groups, ect so I do not fall into the trap, which for me is slavery.

This is not everyones view of slavery, but for me it is deadly.

What you say I really understand.
This became clear for me when my previous relationship ended.
I released myself and it was agaonising to do so. But it would have been more agonising to stay.
This does not mean that I do not love him. It's pure conjecture to even ask myself what I would do if he offered me my collar back.
Something has been lost which will never be regained: and that is my ability to become enslaved again. I know I say and I stand by it that the definition' of slave remains with the Master and that each M/s relationship is unique. But I just know for me that I will never be prepared to sacrifice myself like that again. There was a moment, a crystallised moment in time, which I shall never forget, when after hearing his voice, I took off my collar and stepped forward into a new type of freedom.
Something was sacrificed yet something was also gained.
I feel it is a constant process of evolution for all of us. And when I think about what the OP is asking I recognise the process. Do I get to call myself a slave now? Or an ex'slave? No: but I get to call myself a free woman and it is a status I have also earned. You so beautifully state this.
Few see the invivible shackles I carry.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 8/15/2009 10:26:13 PM >

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(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 83

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 12:53:33 AM

spookyfe

Posts: 74
Status: offline

First i will admit to not having read each reply. so forgive if i repeat something.
i am deeply submissive, it wasnt till i met my master i am now with that i realised how submissive i am it didnt take long for me to realise i trusted him so deeeply that i was no longer using safe words. he of course had noticed and was deepning my submission, (we talked recently about it) He said to me you are my slave not my submissive i too questioned him about it at first he ddnt go into detail just said see how you feel how things go and slowly i realised yes i was his slave and was so happy.

one article i read says a lot to me http://bestslavetraining.com/subvsslave.htm abpout the differences. i now love and know i am his slave, he also said when we talked deeper that i needed to be his slave and i did have to agree.

life is woinderful as his owned slave

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 84

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 6:16:03 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetsub1957

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

What's really important is how it is defined between you and the person on the other side of the kneel. Knowing what that word, and what it inspires when used by your Master, means to you. When you hear him say it, do you hear it with your ears, or with a slave's heart?

LadyPact, You always have it so "together." What really matters is how the D-type and the s-type in the relationship define it. No one else's definitions really matter, as there are so many out there, many conflicting.

Sir & I both see submissive and slave as existing on a continuum.....which one someone is is a matter of the degree of submission. But even though I would do anything for Him, trust Him always to make the best decisions, even though I've been told I have a slave's heart, the word "slave" just scares the hell outta me.

I still want other people's definitions even though they are conflicting. Why? In order to form a definition of my own. Granted the majority of my personal definition will come from within my relationship, but it may make that word easier to accept if it is somewhat "mine". Do you see what I am saying? Also, the moment I am introduced as someone's slave, it conjures up their own understanding of the term and I would like to know what some of those understandings are.

As for that word scaring the hell outta ya, join the club. I think maybe I've got things way too big in my own head... gee I never do that

....but I want more awareness. We bark at people on these boards all the time about rushing in, failing to communicate, and such things. I don't want to do those things myself.

lovingpet

(in reply to sweetsub1957)

Post #: 85

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 6:26:20 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

you cannot remove that invisible shackle that keeps you in bondage.

Prefaced, because I know it has been true for me, to say that I have found this to be true in most any relationship where one has loved long and hard. There is a hold there that is hard to shake. Every single person (okay the list is short) that I have been so deeply involved with as to call it "intimate", have left impressions on my life and I probably still would move heaven and earth for them. It doesn't much matter that something pulled us apart (usually death).

I see that shackle you speak of very clearly already. Having spent my time in deep relationships before this, I know it exists, but I also know this has the potential to have far more impact. I know I could find myself still his even should the time come that it's supposedly over. I would only be fooling myself. A few things in this thread has made me kind of look at a potential end and what it would be like, which I guess is a good thing. I also do not enter such relationships with any kind of out available to my mind. I am not searching for the escape hatch. My hope is to create a relationship that endures. Part of that is acknowledging this shackle I know is there and getting to know the nature of it. It is already on regardless of what happens now, so I may as well know more about it.

lovingpet

(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 86

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 6:34:16 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

I released myself and it was agaonising to do so.<snip> I took off my collar and stepped forward into a new type of freedom.
[/font][/size]

I guess I am kind of standing at the opposite side of the journey, but it is equally profound. Should I ever be able to do so, acknowledging my own enslavement will be a shattering thing for me. It will be a life altering thing as far as I'm concerned, regardless of what that meaning is that he and I agree upon. The end conclusion is still the same. I am not my own and nothing will be quite the same because of that. When that time comes and I am placed in that collar, there is where my freedom will lie, but am I ready for it?

lovingpet

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 87

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 6:39:23 AM

lovingpet

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Joined: 6/19/2005
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I am familiar with such conversations, but he doesn't go in for the finding these things "in my own time". I will come to them in HIS time and at his impetus. It makes it a rough mental journey. I happen to like that, which is why it is handled that way, but it really can throw me off balance and into a mess. I just get all flustered when he takes it from Yes you are x, to Not only are you x, but you NEED to be x. It's a need now???? I haven't even accepted I AM x!!!!! Then again, this is how we work and we seem to enjoy the ride.

lovingpet

(in reply to spookyfe)

Post #: 88

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 7:22:20 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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Joined: 6/29/2008
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~Fast Reply~

quote:

I asked him what would be so different between me being his submissive versus his slave. The answers were vastly different. The motivations seemed miles apart. The implications about me personally seemed frightening no matter which I was, but terrifying if I truly came to accept I was a slave.

Yes, I'm late coming in, so this may have already been covered, so if it's been said, I apologize -- but I'll reinforce, if so, that, honestly, hon, you have your answer right here == see... the whole deal of what makes a submissive person a submissive person and a slave a slave come down to what the person holding the reins of the relationship considers 'submissive' vs. 'slave'. If you want to know how you're seen, and what to call where you are, he's told you how he sees things if/when he holds the reins. It really isn't any more complicated than that. From here, it sounds like what -you- need to do is figure out whether you meet his criteria for one or the other category, and then figure out whether you can handle -being- that person and being identified as that person in his mind -- and if not, now is the time to say so... but if so, then just -be- who and what you are, and let the labels fend for themselves. You don't have to call what you do -anything-... you just need to -be- and know that this is what you want, by whatever name it is called.

Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 89

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 7:44:39 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I have no idea what you call that! LOL Whatever it is, it is beautiful to us and makes us happy, so the tag on the box doesn't seem to matter.

lovingpet

It really doesn't matter what you call it.... it only matters that you do it well if it makes you both happy and fulfilled.

I am thinking calling it "Doing the KOM way" would be a great label!!! what do you think? ;)

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 90

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 9:06:28 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I think it is this idea of "low" that gets me partially too. I don't know how it all jives with me and my own hard earned self confidence. I had to come a long way to acquire it and I'm not so fond of doing away with it.

*sighs* I just ahd the "low" conversation with Carol last night. I thought I'd rooted that one out already. Clearly I have more work to do.

I dont' know how other people run their relationships and honestly I don't care. But for me, I don't see Carol as "low". I see her role as "slave" and mine as "master" to simpy be two designations describing the function we perform on our team. Saying which one is "higher" or "lower" is nonsensical to me. It'd be like asking, "So which is higher, the lead tango dancer or the follower?" Huh? Last I checked, they are both required to do the dance and either, individually, looks kind of stupid.

Carol's contributions to our team are just as important and valuable as mine. The simple evidence is that if she stopped performing well, the team would suffer. Clearly, her role is critical to our joint happiness. And insofar as what some theoretical feminist somewhere might say about it, I think that answer is pretty cut & dried. Carol is happier in her marriage than the vast majority of other couples we know. To me, "winning at life" can be measured in happiness. So I'm not real interested in someone picking apart a winning strategy. To me, some random person saying, "But you shouldn't be a slave" is a lot like some arm chair swim coach saying "Sure, Micheal Phelps swept the olympics, but his technique is sloppy and inefficient."

The old adage applies here, "You can't argue with success."

OK, rant off. But god how I hate the really pernicious viewpoint that somehow "following" the lead of a credible leader is defective as a life strategy.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 91

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 9:24:00 AM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

But god how I hate the really pernicious viewpoint that somehow "following" the lead of a credible leader is defective as a life strategy.

Exactly! If there is no one to follow how can one lead?
I think we should not view any position as loftier than another, but should concentrate on the importance of what we do within our relationships, jobs, and life in general.
I had a friend who was fussing one time because her son had no interest in going to college, she said, “I’m afraid he will end up as a garbage collector.” My response; “And wouldn’t we be in a mess if no one cleaned up our garbage?”

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 92

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 9:30:40 AM

pyroaquatic

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From: Pyroaquatica
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The name for a natural Dynamic: Two bodies.... enjoying each others time.

This is what I have concluded thus far.

_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 93

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 9:41:33 AM

kiwisub12

Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
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Lovingpet - it wasn't til i had completed 3 years of therapy, and was happy with who i was that i was able to accept/discover that i was submissive.
I think that to acknowledge ones submissiveness is an expression of how strong we are. For me, i had to have strong self confidence before i could give my submission to another.

To look at it in another way - if you weren't self confident and a strong woman - what value would you have for your master? No master in his right mind would want to get rid of that strength and self confidence - if for no other reason than it makes him look good that he can BE the master of someone like that. Take it as a compliament, and run with it.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 94

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 10:38:23 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I have no idea what you call that! LOL Whatever it is, it is beautiful to us and makes us happy, so the tag on the box doesn't seem to matter.

lovingpet

It really doesn't matter what you call it.... it only matters that you do it well if it makes you both happy and fulfilled.

I am thinking calling it "Doing the KOM way" would be a great label!!! what do you think? ;)

Hehe.... I think my partner might take a tad issue with it, but it's a fine idea in its own right!

lovingpet

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 95

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 10:56:29 AM

lovingpet

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I do see the partners in a pair in a D/s relationship as the two components of the whole. Neither is more "important" than the other, but they are definitely different. Differences tend to bring forth a natural inclination to deem one concept "better" than the other, and in so doing, those judgements come to lay upon the people occupying a given role. One can argue it is not right or fair, but isn't it?

One must lead and one must follow. However, in order for one to be worthy of being followed, the leader must have some merit that raises the elevation of that person in the other person's, and quite possibly society at large's, eyes. I can't think of too many people that would follow with the kind of devotion that we are discussion someone that they viewed as weaker, lesser, etc. That only logically means that the one following, at least in a comparison of people goes if on no other level, is less than (lower, inferior) to the leading partner. Is my logic flawed in this?

On a survival level, following the same logic (regardless of if it is flawed, since there's not much I can do about it at this point), the weaker one has less viability on its own. It is only as safe to continue to live and grow as the protector it has for mate, leader of the pack, whatever. That's a very STRONG case for choosing/having a SUPERIOR leader. Life or death is in the balance. Consequently, if M/s has any roots at all in this type of mating process, the submissive/slave is going to be a lesser entity because otherwise he/she would not be in need of a leader and he/she would BE one.

Needless to say, this presses a lot of buttons for me. I am merely positing a line of logic that I have heard many times here on the boards and elsewhere. Unless someone can show me that I have put this together wrong, I have to accept a lot of hard things to take that name of slave. I also have to be pretty darn sure about an awful lot about my partner too. Of course, I am of the extremely overcautious variety so that's not really an issue. I have to agree that one can't argue with success and that is what we have is a winning combination. I do still struggle with these kinds of maybe purely academic/semantic exercises, but they happen to matter to me. I know. I just might be a lost cause. Everyone is doing well helping me get a handle on all this though. I am very thankful for friends of such calibre!

lovingpet

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 96

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 11:04:26 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

But god how I hate the really pernicious viewpoint that somehow "following" the lead of a credible leader is defective as a life strategy.

[I think we should not view any position as loftier than another, but should concentrate on the importance of what we do within our relationships, jobs, and life in general.

I know I am important and valuable in and of myself, to our relationship, and to him specifically. I don't know if I would go so far as saying irreplacable, but my value and worth are not even up for debate with him, nor does he allow me to argue the point even with myself. My issues has more to do with position, I suppose. It also has to do with accepting that someone, anyone, could be somehow superior to me in some deep way. I just think the roles reflect a whole lot more than just an agreement or preference. The fact that one agreed or has that preference brings about the question of motivations and traits. Accepting such a position as slave to Master x carries a lot more to it than just the roles themselves.

I know. I'm worked up over what seems like nothing. In my head, it's not nothing. Everyone is being abundantly patient with me and thank you all for that!

lovingpet

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 97

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 11:05:31 AM

lovingpet

Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

The name for a natural Dynamic: Two bodies.... enjoying each others time.

This is what I have concluded thus far.

That we definitely do!

lovingpet

(in reply to pyroaquatic)

Post #: 98

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 11:11:15 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
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I have never chosen anyone whom I regarded as superior to me.
Men I like are of equal intelligence but not necessarily in the same focus as my own.
They are not in my life because I see them as better than I.. rather they are there because in my evaluation they are just as good, which allows me to relax my grip on the controls.
I believe that there should be a leader. If someone does not step up I do. But it is so much nicer when in my view someone is just as capable as I am and he happens to prefer leading. If I trust him I can relax enough to let someone else drive.
I don't care for the role of leader. I take it because I dislike the behavior of people milling about with no direction. I prefer to follow in the wake of someone I trust.
I have met people in all walks of life, actors, gangsters, lawyers, police, medical professionals and politicians... the role is not important to me, but the mind is. How do they think and reason?
I have met postmen that have more sense than some more elevated occupations.

The only reason someone becomes my dominant is because I trust in my judgement enough to feel I am safe in his direction, because he is just as good as I am.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
However, in order for one to be worthy of being followed, the leader must have some merit that raises the elevation of that person in the other person's, and quite possibly society at large's, eyes. I can't think of too many people that would follow with the kind of devotion that we are discussion someone that they viewed as weaker, lesser, etc. That only logically means that the one following, at least in a comparison of people goes if on no other level, is less than (lower, inferior) to the leading partner. Is my logic flawed in this?

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 99

RE: The Name for a Natural Dynamic - 8/16/2009 11:12:55 AM

pyroaquatic

Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline

Mr. Leadership I am inspired of how well you handle your relationship with Carol. I wish to be in the same position as Carol someday (except with a female)

Amorous Pet,

It takes two to tango. Dancing by ones self... while a good exercise it is also futile. You are an intelligent woman and the only thing I think you need to worry about is the relationship.

How you relate to the one that chooses to possess you and who you choose to possess you. That is what matters.

Not labels or naming... for:

quote:

Naming is the particular origin of all things

If I were to be so weak... or viewed as such would my devotion be so strong?

There are many bright people and my enlightenment is furthered by everyone's graceful keystrokes.
Thanks!

_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 100

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