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ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Lovingpet - it wasn't til i had completed 3 years of therapy, and was happy with who i was that i was able to accept/discover that i was submissive.
I think that to acknowledge ones submissiveness is an expression of how strong we are. For me, i had to have strong self confidence before i could give my submission to another.

To look at it in another way - if you weren't self confident and a strong woman - what value would you have for your master? No master in his right mind would want to get rid of that strength and self confidence -  if for no other reason than it makes him look good that he can BE the master of someone like that.  Take it as a compliament, and run with it.

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ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

~Fast Reply~

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I asked him what would be so different between me being his submissive versus his slave. The answers were vastly different. The motivations seemed miles apart. The implications about me personally seemed frightening no matter which I was, but terrifying if I truly came to accept I was a slave.

the whole deal of what makes a submissive person a submissive person and a slave a slave come down to what the person holding the reins of the relationship considers 'submissive' vs. 'slave'. If you want to know how you're seen, and what to call where you are, he's told you how he sees things if/when he holds the reins. It really isn't any more complicated than that. Dame Calla

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I do see the partners in a pair in a D/s relationship as the two components of the whole. Neither is more "important" than the other, but they are definitely different. Differences tend to bring forth a natural inclination to deem one concept "better" than the other, and in so doing, those judgements come to lay upon the people occupying a given role. One can argue it is not right or fair, but isn't it?

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One must lead and one must follow. However, in order for one to be worthy of being followed, the leader must have some merit that raises the elevation of that person in the other person's, and quite possibly society at large's, eyes. I can't think of too many people that would follow with the kind of devotion that we are discussion someone that they viewed as weaker, lesser, etc. That only logically means that the one following, at least in a comparison of people goes if on no other level, is less than (lower, inferior) to the leading partner. Is my logic flawed in this?

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On a survival level, following the same logic (regardless of if it is flawed, since there's not much I can do about it at this point), the weaker one has less viability on its own.

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It is only as safe to continue to live and grow as the protector it has for mate, leader of the pack, whatever. That's a very STRONG case for choosing/having a SUPERIOR leader. Life or death is in the balance. Consequently, if M/s has any roots at all in this type of mating process, the submissive/slave is going to be a lesser entity because otherwise he/she would not be in need of a leader and he/she would BE one.

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Lovingpet - it wasn't til i had completed 3 years of therapy, and was happy with who i was that i was able to accept/discover that i was submissive.
I think that to acknowledge ones submissiveness is an expression of how strong we are. For me, i had to have strong self confidence before i could give my submission to another.

To look at it in another way - if you weren't self confident and a strong woman - what value would you have for your master? No master in his right mind would want to get rid of that strength and self confidence -  if for no other reason than it makes him look good that he can BE the master of someone like that.  Take it as a compliament, and run with it.

I would say about 10 years of on and off professional work as well as a whole load of instropection and such has brought me to be the cute, cuddly bundle you all "know" and enjoy today. In other words, I worked really hard to get this twisted! LOL In all seriousness though, it reminds me of a country song title I saw one time "Did I Shave My Legs for This?" Basically, she thought she was headed out on the town with her man only to wind up staying at home cleaning up baby puke and making fish sticks and mac and cheese for 10. I am not even REMOTELY saying that this position is like getting baby puke instead of glamour or whatever, but that when getting myself ready for my own life and pulling myself together and all that effort, I may not have known what I was preparing FOR, but I certainly didn't think I was putting myself all together so that I could give myself away piece by piece. I don't know if this comparison is making a bit of sense. I think I lost the analogy a few leaps of linguistics ago! Hopefully someone gets my drift and I don't get taken the wrong way here.

The path I was on shifted violently a couple of years ago. That change actually made me aware that it was only even MORE important to be as healthy as possible in order to choose someone who was going to be worthy of the responsibility he/she would have. I think I did my job well and, in having done it well, know it is an ever continuing process to check in and make sure I am on track as a person. That also means checking the choices I have made for the people who are in my life and the role/function they are occupying in that life too. Given all I have done to get here, I don't know how to interpret this role, place, and person (either of us) in terms of what I previously thought I knew. Now I must go back to some basics. Like I said, it is a continuing process.

I take great pride in being in a relationship with this wonderful man. I take pride in being his and who and what he both wants and needs. That is enough for me to be at peace within our relationship, but not for me to know what we are doing and where we are going. I just know I wanna ride along!

lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I have met people in all walks of life, actors, gangsters, lawyers, police, medical professionals and politicians... the role is not important to me, but the mind is.  How do they think and reason? 
I have met postmen that have more sense than some more elevated occupations.

The only reason someone becomes my dominant is because I trust in my judgement enough to feel I am safe in his direction, because he is just as good as I am.

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet
However, in order for one to be worthy of being followed, the leader must have some merit that raises the elevation of that person in the other person's, and quite possibly society at large's, eyes. I can't think of too many people that would follow with the kind of devotion that we are discussion someone that they viewed as weaker, lesser, etc. That only logically means that the one following, at least in a comparison of people goes if on no other level, is less than (lower, inferior) to the leading partner. Is my logic flawed in this?

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ORIGINAL: leadership527

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet
I do see the partners in a pair in a D/s relationship as the two components of the whole. Neither is more "important" than the other, but they are definitely different. Differences tend to bring forth a natural inclination to deem one concept "better" than the other, and in so doing, those judgements come to lay upon the people occupying a given role. One can argue it is not right or fair, but isn't it?

Sure, some people will attach value to all sorts of dumb-assed things. That doesn't mean that I have to agree though. To quote Steeley Dan... The things you think are precious I can't understand *chuckles*

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One must lead and one must follow. However, in order for one to be worthy of being followed, the leader must have some merit that raises the elevation of that person in the other person's, and quite possibly society at large's, eyes. I can't think of too many people that would follow with the kind of devotion that we are discussion someone that they viewed as weaker, lesser, etc. That only logically means that the one following, at least in a comparison of people goes if on no other level, is less than (lower, inferior) to the leading partner. Is my logic flawed in this?

Really? So which is better, apples or waltzes? More specifically, Carol respects me for my leadership skills. I respect her for her following skills. As much as I'm an arrogant ass when it comes to my own abilities as a leader, I feel that she is my equal as a follower. Carol sees me as a better leader than her, not a better human.

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On a survival level, following the same logic (regardless of if it is flawed, since there's not much I can do about it at this point), the weaker one has less viability on its own.

Weaker? That's your word, not mine. I certainly do not see Carol as weak. If I did, she wouldn't be my wife forget about my slave. Let's just recap what Carol has done. She managed to live her life just fine to the age of 35. At that age, she found a good credible leader (by her assessment) and hitched her wagon to that horse. Now, as a part of that team, the sum is greater than the parts and she is winning wildly at life. You're going to have to fill me in on which definition of the word "weak" applies to that situation. It sounds like a winner to me.

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It is only as safe to continue to live and grow as the protector it has for mate, leader of the pack, whatever. That's a very STRONG case for choosing/having a SUPERIOR leader. Life or death is in the balance. Consequently, if M/s has any roots at all in this type of mating process, the submissive/slave is going to be a lesser entity because otherwise he/she would not be in need of a leader and he/she would BE one.

Circular logic. Sure, there's a lot to be said for choosing a superior partner in life. Carol chose a superior leader by her assessment. Booyah. I chose a superior follower. How is it any different for me than her? I get it that you feel that the follower position is somehow "weak" and all of your logic derives from that. But you have not yet demonstrated to me a definition of the word "weak" that would make that true. To me, the term "weak", in order to have any meaning at all, needs to be applied to some context. But if you look at Carol's life before she met me, then later when we were married, then later when we were collared, she appears to be doing a damned credible job at life. Explain to me how it is you're arguing with proven success. Wherein did she fail somehow? In what way was she unable to rise to some important challenge in life?

Let's take an even closer look at her life as my slave wherein she apparently, has somehow become less than she was when she was my wife. So, since the collaring, she has refocused on her creative/artistic side. She's gotten out of a cubicle job that didn't really fit her well. She's about to move up to a gorgeous island in the pacific northwest where she can live a bohemian, artistic lifestyle. And on a daily basis, she spends a great deal of her time being very very happy. SHE did all of those things just as much as I did. Let's point out that at this very moment, I'm typing responses to strangers on the internet and she's out painting the house. She layed the tile. She painted the entire interior. She, etc. etc. The thing I call "Life 2.0" has her as an active 50/50 partner in it. I could not have done it without her. So how is it that the victory praise then goes only to me?

Yeah pet.. I do honestly and sincerely believe you have it all wrong. I think that you have defined "slave" to be inferior in your head and then you go on in a circular fashion proving that it's inferior because it's inferior. It is the god's honest truth that if you somehow came to convince me that you were right here, I would get up, pull the collar off her neck and tell her, "That's it, game over."

• Weak, in general, is a situational descriptor, eg: I am a weak chess player.
  
• In general, what it means is that my abilities were not up to the task... whatever task we're talking about.
  
• To refer to a sub/slave, in general, as "weak" means they are weak at life.
  
• That, in turn, means that they are, somehow, not up to the task of life in general.
  

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 Differences tend to bring forth a natural inclination to deem one concept "better" than the other, and in so doing, those judgements come to lay upon the people occupying a given role. One can argue it is not right or fair, but isn't it? 

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  Carol sees me as a better leader than her, not a better human.

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  Carol sees me as a better leader than her, not a better human.

Repeated and underlined to bonk you on the head with it!

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Yup!!!! You could say that! I have no idea where we are headed and if I will like it when we get there, but the ride is super wonderful!

lovingpet

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ORIGINAL: KCalli

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Yup!!!! You could say that! I have no idea where we are headed and if I will like it when we get there, but the ride is super wonderful!

lovingpet

To know what is at the end of the ride would kill the fun of the ride, enjoy the wonderful ride for what it is. May it never end.

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ORIGINAL: lovingpet
Choosing someone who advances me in an intimate relationship is just a shrewd choice. It does mean though that, at least on some level and in some ways, I have to accept I am "weaker" than that person who can advance me in those particular areas. This isn't to say the person is necessarily better than me as a human being, but definitely at some particularly poignant parts of life in general. If I can't trust he can do it better, I may as well do it myself. If I believe he does it worse, it would be a crying stupid thing for me to NOT do it myself. It still gives me fits though.

Let me guess, circular and full of discrepancies and unreasonable leaps in logic. I told you I was confused. See post #1! LOL

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ORIGINAL: lally2

I suppose if anything it concentrated my efforts not to question, simply to obey, to have no limits or safe word with him and to simply trust and let go.  maybe that is what youre partner is asking from you and it is freeing and it does bring you very close to that place of absolute acceptance of their authority and control over you.  that last little niggle and barrier to complete release just floats away.