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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 2:58:44 PM

Starbuck09

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That is an excellent start Ken. That was my point earlier hippie aban is useless if society is flooded with firearms.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 3:02:34 PM

IronBear

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There is an old saying mate which i believe holds true:

A gun is not dangerous and can not kill. Load the gun and all you have is the potential to harm of kill. The closer a human being gets to that gun the greater the potential for someone being hurt or killed. Guns do not kill people ~ People kill people. Those who have used guns to either rob or kill someone would possibly have used some other weapon. It could be said by purists, that people need to be licensed to live let alone own a gun. I agree with tougher licensing and have good certified training before issuing any weapons licence. have very tough laws for those who do not keep their weapons and ammunition in a weapons safe and leave them laying about in cupboards etc. make it hard top get a licence by all means but do not stop those who need a firearms for work, club shooting or hunting in prescribed areas or collecting weapons.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 3:08:40 PM

OrionTheWolf

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The last time the Supreme Court handed the second amendment issues it did not see them as off base. Most ignore the fact that the Supreme Court also put in a good foundation to have a reasonable licensing guidelines. Now the states need to create a specific tax to handguns and permits, so that the money is used for a mandatory training course. This will improve gun safety and reduce accidents.

Also, it was mentioned the problem we have with keeping illegal drugs out, and the same will hold for illegal weapons and ammo. When thousands of people can still walk across the border without seeing a government official, it shows that just about anything can be brought across that border.

So let us say there is now a completely ban. Now when the three thugs armed with knives and baseball bats walk into the store to rob it, the feeble 72 year old will not have the option of having the shotgun to defend his property. Strong armed robbery will still.

A solution for one society, especially considering geographical location, and another may not be workable. Sorry but it is a cultural thing to be armed, just in case.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 3:12:11 PM

Starbuck09

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To be fair i've got no argument with that bear I agree with you. You see mate if only we were in power we could put he world to right!

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 3:16:03 PM

MarsBonfire

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It's true, you are never going to be able to eliminate guns in the hands of criminals. Those tribbles have already escaped, and their numbers have grown too much to EVER be able to control them. My main concern is the sheer number of people who have bought guns, and don't have the faintest idea how to use them or maintian them. My idea of "gun control" is making sure the owners understand their weapon, and are competent in their actual use. If I were in a position to do so, I would implement a mandatory gun class and proficiency testing proceedure, not unlike those you have to take in order to own and operate a car or truck. You pass, you keep your gun. (See you again in five years when you have to renew.) If you don't pass, either because you're a moron, too young or too old, or seem mentally unstable... well, sorry. You can try again in a year.

Of course, this also means that the authorities will know who you are, and what you have in your home. If needed, say, after a natural disaster, they can come knocking to deputize you and use you in keeping the peace, stopping looters, or repelling aliens from outer space... (or whatever) The exact same way they can press you into service as an ambulance driver, or a transport driver if you have a car.

The problem seems to be... yeah, we give the NRA and the gun folks all the liberties of gun ownership... but with that should also come a good deal of responsibility.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 3:47:10 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

No DomImus what you need to do is take away firearms from both so that this old man did not have to kill to protect what is his.

Yes because that works so well. "Everyone" just willingly gives up their guns. Oh wait no....the criminals don't, do they? You're right though, the store owner wouldn't have had to shoot to protect what was his. They'd have just killed him.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 3:49:33 PM

Starbuck09

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It does work well Loki as i've said countless times look at Britain. Our rate of gun crime compared to that of America is miniscule. What do you actually think Britain is like Loki. Do you think people are being slaughtered in the streets by gun toting criminals?

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 3:50:29 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

It does work well Loki as i've said countless times look at Britain. Our rate of gun crime compared to that of America is miniscule. What do you actually think Britain is like Loki. Do you think people are being slaughtered in the streets by gun toting criminals?

However 'miniscule' it is there, it is still there. And I don't think those Brits who were victims of gun violence care how 'miniscule' it is. They're still dead.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 3:54:28 PM

Starbuck09

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So what that argument is nonsense. By that logic as your gun crime rate is astronomical clearly existing methods are not working in america. I'm sure the countless thousands of innocents that are the victims of gun crime in america don't care how large it is either..as they to are dead.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 4:08:55 PM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDaveGuy69

I'm not a member of the NRA but I wholeheartedly agree with the statement: "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns".
Here in Chicago, King Richard II did another photo-op gun buy-back over the weekend. It's completely meaningless to buy guns from honest people as they aren't the one doing the shooting out on the streets.

This has been a very deadly year for school students in Chicago, with literally dozens of kids being killed when caught in gang cross-fire. Not one of the guns turned-in this weekend will be found to have been involved in any of those shootings. Those guns are still in the hands of the gang-bangers, drug dealers, and hard-core criminals. More anti-gun laws won't make the streets any safer. And stepped-up enforcemnet of existing laws won't help much, either.

The real solutions aren't as simple as a 30-secong sound bite.

What is needed is a complete overhaul of education - it all starts with learning how to learn and how to succeed in school.

We also need to completely overhaul everything that has to do with manufacturing in this country. There is absolutely no reason why we can't make all those electronics here instead of paying the Chinese for them. We need to create a new foundation for manufacturing so that people will have jobs.

We also need to get serious about drugs in this country. Let's face it: the "War On Drugs" is over and we lost. We could put an end to at least 1/2 the crime if we legalized and regulated illicit drugs. Forget about the tax revues - just imagine the savings from not having the whole culture of illegal drugs.

But these are difficult issues that take real leadership to tackle. And let's face: leadership is the one thing that is profoundly lacking in this country on both sides of The Aisle.

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I whole heartedly agree!

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 4:11:20 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

So what that argument is nonsense. By that logic as your gun crime rate is astronomical clearly existing methods are not working in america. I'm sure the countless thousands of innocents that are the victims of gun crime in america don't care how large it is either..as they to are dead.

Perhaps, but at least they had the choice to defend themselves properly. The fact that they chose not to is not my concern. With every choice you have some people who will choose one way and some who will choose another.

Here's the thing: You know gun crime is out there. Ban or no, it happens. You have made the choice that, knowing that information, you'd rather be defenseless and take your chances. I have chosen that I will not be defenseless. That is where we differ.

Will either of us be victims of gun crime? No one can say. However, if you are, you will be nothing more than a victim. I will be able to fight back. I might win, and I might lose. But as they say in the lottery: the only way to be sure you won't win is to not try.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 4:20:49 PM

Starbuck09

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Firstly Loki it is rare that you get a chance to defend yourself. If someone pulls out a gun and shoots you in the head there will be very few people who will even register what is happening let alone have the chance to defend themselves.
I know in my country there is a very very small amount of gun crime. The same that I know it is possible I will be killed by a splinter group of p.i.r.a. or hit by a drunk driver. I choose to protect myself by living in a country which has laws that make this activity virtually non existent no society is going to be able to eradicate risk from life.
Will either us be the victims of gun crime I know not either. what I do know is the chances of it happening to me are infintesimal compared to your chances. If a splinter of p.i.r.a. for example detonate a bomb in my pub and i am killed I will not have chosen to be a victim because I do not possess military grade explosive. As i pointed out to you on the other thread we have had 76 police officers killed in England since 1913and not all of them shot by any means. I am sure the police in America would prefer tighter gun laws that vastly improved their chances rather than the possibility of defending themselves from a daily occurence.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 4:23:35 PM

Starbuck09

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I'm off to bed now so I will catch up with you tommorow Loki.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 4:24:53 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
Firstly Loki it is rare that you get a chance to defend yourself. If someone pulls out a gun and shoots you in the head there will be very few people who will even register what is happening let alone have the chance to defend themselves.
I know in my country there is a very very small amount of gun crime. The same that I know it is possible I will be killed by a splinter group of p.i.r.a. or hit by a drunk driver. I choose to protect myself by living in a country which has laws that make this activity virtually non existent no society is going to be able to eradicate risk from life.
Will either us be the victims of gun crime I know not either. what I do know is the chances of it happening to me are infintesimal compared to your chances. If a splinter of p.i.r.a. for example detonate a bomb in my pub and i am killed I will not have chosen to be a victim because I do not possess military grade explosive. As i pointed out to you on the other thread we have had 76 police officers killed in England since 1913and not all of them shot by any means. I am sure the police in America would prefer tighter gun laws that vastly improved their chances rather than the possibility of defending themselves from a daily occurence.

Actually, here in America the CHL (concealed handgun license) laws where largely campaigned for *by* the police because they already know they can't protect everyone with their limited resources and manpower.

The difference between your chances and my chances are that if, by chance you are targeted for a gun crime, you are at that point unable to fight back. What happens will happen. If I am targeted to be a victim of a gun crime, I can still defend myself. LIke I said, maybe I'll win, maybe I won't. But I like my odds a lot better than if I am targeted and do not have the means with which to fight back.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 4:28:20 PM

Starbuck09

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But I like my odds which state categotrically that I am more at risk of being struck by lightning then be a victim of gun crime in Britain. Your chances of being killed are exponentially higher.
I'm sure the police did campaign for it because at the moment the state of affairs means that citizens in america are so at risk that the police often can't be of help. That points to a need for the situation to be changed drastically.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 4:44:51 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
That points to a need for the situation to be changed drastically.

Unfortunately that leads to the 'geanie out of the bottle' argument. And it's really true. If they banned all legal ownership tomorrow, there'd be open season on innocent people.

I prefer Arizona's take on it. Open-carry laws prevent a lot of would-be robbers. What idiot is going to walk up and rob someone who already has a gun hanging on their hip?

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 4:56:09 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

The last time the Supreme Court handed the second amendment issues it did not see them as off base. Most ignore the fact that the Supreme Court also put in a good foundation to have a reasonable licensing guidelines. Now the states need to create a specific tax to handguns and permits, so that the money is used for a mandatory training course. This will improve gun safety and reduce accidents.

Also, it was mentioned the problem we have with keeping illegal drugs out, and the same will hold for illegal weapons and ammo. When thousands of people can still walk across the border without seeing a government official, it shows that just about anything can be brought across that border.

So let us say there is now a completely ban. Now when the three thugs armed with knives and baseball bats walk into the store to rob it, the feeble 72 year old will not have the option of having the shotgun to defend his property. Strong armed robbery will still.

A solution for one society, especially considering geographical location, and another may not be workable. Sorry but it is a cultural thing to be armed, just in case.

Actuall the recent SCOTUS ruling was a disaster that almost guarantees it will be reversed.

First off is the ludicrous throwing out the first half of the text of the amendment as meaningless.

Then there is the disgusting ruling that any individual right can be taken away by ruling of a civil court judge. That's right according to Scalia you can lose your second amendment right due to a civil judge finding you incompetent and since Scalia made the right to bear arms equivalent legally with the right to speech, religion etc. that means that a civil court judge can permanently remove those rights from you as well.

Importing illegal weapons is considerably more difficult than drugs, because guns show up quite well as guns on x rays, magnetometers etc. Anyway as I already pointed out virtually all cheap handguns made in the world are made in the US. It's a business few nations would tolerate going on inside their borders for obvious reasons so it is unlikely that the equivalent of the Ring of Fire will spring up anywhere. I will point out the success of the British handgun ban despite their very porous border.

It is not a cultural thing to be armed. It is a paranoid thing and it is exceptionally dangerous. The number of times I've gotten strange looks from other gun owners when they see my gun safe and trigger locked weapons is astounding. No amount of hunter safety training can apparently teach a gun guy how to safely carry his weapon or to not get drunk and shoot at anything that moves during hunting season.

Think about the blaze orange requirement for a moment. If American hunters could be relied upon to exercise the first and most basic rule of using a firearm, positively identify what you are shooting at before you fire, then we wouldn't have any reason for the blaze orange rule. But we all know that even people wearing blaze orange get shot or shot at every year by hunters who shouldn't even be allowed in the same county as a loaded weapon.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 5:30:39 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Think about the blaze orange requirement for a moment. If American hunters could be relied upon to exercise the first and most basic rule of using a firearm, positively identify what you are shooting at before you fire, then we wouldn't have any reason for the blaze orange rule. But we all know that even people wearing blaze orange get shot or shot at every year by hunters who shouldn't even be allowed in the same county as a loaded weapon.

Well, not to nit-pick with a fellow responsible gun owner, but when i hunted I found the blaze orange regulation very comforting. It wasn't so much that I needed it to help me identify what I was shooting at - it was more that I felt a much greater confidence that there wasn't another hunter half-hidden by the brush somewhere near my line of fire, someone I might not have noticed if they were wearing camo.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 5:41:52 PM

IronBear

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Whilst there is little chance I will these days be targeted by a gun toting villain when I go out at night, there is a very real chance that I will be targeted by a couple or even a group of young adults using knives and or clubs (wood or steel). in either case and especially as I am not as nimble as I used to be, and of course the danger increased if I have Neets with me. because I am no longer required by federal law to carry a gun or guns every time I leave the house , I have the option to do so and except on the rare cases I am going to a private play party or to a club, I am armed when I or we go out at night. this way i do have some chance to protect and defend both myself and any one with me. That I have usually been able to taljk some ijit down and defuse the situation without having to resort to drawing the weapon just means that I consider the drawing and subsequent use of a gun as a last resort.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 5:54:35 PM

WyldHrt

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quote:

Will either us be the victims of gun crime I know not either. what I do know is the chances of it happening to me are infintesimal compared to your chances

Maybe so, but getting rid of guns doesn't seem to have done a whole hell of a lot to stop violent crime in the UK, Starbuck, and a knife will kill you just as dead.

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