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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 9:06:10 PM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		Another point none of yopu have addressed is that every gun fatality in America is initially reported as a homicide for the purposes of creating these statistics. GB only reports those verified to be a homicide in its numbers.
I was reading up on this recently and was amazed at the fact that the irresponsible people in charge of all of this in the US would rather pad their stats with numbers from what were later found out to be accidents than to be truthful or honest. It makes a number that is already too high seem even higher. Apparently they want to give the rest of the world the idea that Americans are all gun wielding homicidal cowboys. From some of what I keep hearing, its working.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 9:36:07 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You should always assume someone is down range wearing camo without orange and verify the target before firing. Failing to do so could kill someone.


Well if you always assume there's someone down range whom you can't see, you would never fire your gun. Right? What you do is assume that there may be, and take every possible precaution to clear your field of fire.

And it has nothing to do with verifying your target -  even if you know exactly what you're shooting at, there is always the possibility that another hunter is in the area, partially concealed by brush. The more visible they are, the easier it is to spot them.

Which is once again why you must never shoot at a target you cannot visually verify. IOW don't shoot through what appears to be a bush because it could be a person. Only shoot at an unobstructed clearly visible game animal.


I don't understand why you keep repeating that, as though you think I disagree or don't understand it. You do realize we're talking about 2 totally different things, right?


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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 11:00:36 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I don't understand why you keep repeating that, as though you think I disagree or don't understand it. You do realize we're talking about 2 totally different things, right?




Annoying when that happens, isn't it, Panda? 

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 2:30:24 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You should always assume someone is down range wearing camo without orange and verify the target before firing. Failing to do so could kill someone.


Well if you always assume there's someone down range whom you can't see, you would never fire your gun. Right? What you do is assume that there may be, and take every possible precaution to clear your field of fire.

And it has nothing to do with verifying your target -  even if you know exactly what you're shooting at, there is always the possibility that another hunter is in the area, partially concealed by brush. The more visible they are, the easier it is to spot them.

Which is once again why you must never shoot at a target you cannot visually verify. IOW don't shoot through what appears to be a bush because it could be a person. Only shoot at an unobstructed clearly visible game animal.
you would be putting a hell of a lot of faith in your fellow hunters if you did not comply with the orange regulation.

Tell ya what Ken...as a form of protest why don't you just dress is basic brown on opening day?


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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 3:34:54 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
Regarding the debate about USA v GB, it is practically impossible and a waste of time to compare countries because each country has inherently differing cultures and especially gun cultures as well as differing racial and economic groupings and are sociological different and thus there are few if any points of reference on which to have a sensible debate.


Sorry, but that's really just a cop-out for those who don't want to acknowledge reality. Pretty much every statistic shows that these two countries ARE comparable. I have seen the same comparison between the USA and Germany as Starbuck saw with the UK (and I went straight to the source, to the Web sites of the FBI and the Bundeskriminalamt to get the actual raw data). Across the board, all crime rates are very consistent between the USA and Germany; the crime rate in Germany is very consistently a bit higher than in the USA. That holds true for everything from pickpocketing to fraud, burglary to kidnapping, embezzlement to car theft. The only exception is murder. And even more revealing: the same pattern still holds for non-firearm murders. Murder by knife, strangulation, drowning etc. are all still very similar. ONLY gun-related murders are through the roof in the USA. Even though Germany has neither the death penalty nor life without parole.

With such a very clear pattern, we need something more specific than "oh, it's just cultural differences". Which particular cultural or socioeconomic difference would account for this pattern?


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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 3:59:16 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09
I don't have problem with guns being available in some form Bear. It's just I think the process for obtaining and maintaining one should be very strict indeed. I have no faith whatsoever in the average civilian with regards to their suibtability to be responsible for such a weapon. Guns are always available on the black market for the right price but they are remarkably scarce in Britain Bear [you can still obtain them i'm not denying that] but the process, cost and penalty deters the vast majority of criminals.


Also, keep in mind that without the easy gun laws in the USA, the black market would all but dry up because there is no other easily accessible source left in the world.


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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 3:59:27 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas
With such a very clear pattern, we need something more specific than "oh, it's just cultural differences". Which particular cultural or socioeconomic difference would account for this pattern?


Rap videos and the 'thug'/ghetto lifestyle. That's one thing that 'helps' anyway.


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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 4:09:05 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
I was reading up on this recently and was amazed at the fact that the irresponsible people in charge of all of this in the US would rather pad their stats with numbers from what were later found out to be accidents than to be truthful or honest.working.

That seems an easy thing to say but where is the source behind it?

Besides which for all intents and purpose a mistake that costs a life is just as negligent as a murder. So perhaps on one side of the statistics we could have the number of people killed as the result of positive crime prevention (real criminals killed in terms of the appearance of the situation) vs the number of people killed not through crime prevention but criminal actions and general accidents.




< Message edited by FullCircle -- 8/18/2009 4:17:30 AM >

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 4:26:37 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45
Rap videos and the 'thug'/ghetto lifestyle. That's one thing that 'helps' anyway.

Teenagers in the UK are exposed to exactly the same culture through music and films which now have a global audience. For every work that glorifies violence there will be one that tells of its negative effects.

Teenagers involved in gang violence in the UK think the supply of guns to them is controlled by the government to keep them in this negative life and ensure they never amount to anything else. Whilst I wouldn't go that far I certainly feel that in some countries you can give groups you dislike enough rope to hang themselves.


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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 8:04:59 AM   
elegantcdgoddess


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Status: offline 		So after being robbed 30 years ago, he got a gun? Those criminals were then -3, and -7 years old. So when they attempted to rob him, he killed them. The store is selling TV sets. So just because thugs had criminal history, and they had guns it is ok to kill them. Hmmm, should i go out and shoot few of my armed neighbors? just to make sure they dont come over and take my precious TV.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 8:28:51 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		There is a vast difference in shooting a few people who own and keep guns at home and shooting someone who is armed with a weapon and threatens your life. I do suggest that before you make such comments you need to actually spend time with people who have been faced by armed villains and threatened. I deal with such things as part of my professional counselling/therapy practice as well as dealing with people who have taken a life in self defence. Having been stabbed, and shot in the course of my time as an Armed Security Officer and earlier in the course of being in the Military and Para-Military I know what it is like and it never gets any better or easier. In the cases of my being attacked as a Security Officer, my attackers were armed juveniles. Whilst I fervently hope that I never again have to squeeze the trigger on another human, the chances are that I will need to in defence and protection of my expended family. I honestly don't give a rip if some one is 16 or 60, if they are trying to kill me they are probably going to die. 

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 8:35:30 PM   
Loki45


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quote:

Original: elegantcdgoddess
So when they attempted to rob him, he killed them. The store is selling TV sets. So just because thugs had criminal history, and they had guns it is ok to kill them.


This is a joke post, right? Do you honestly think the robbers were shot because they had a criminal history which the store owner could not possibly known about?

Do you think any of their past came into the thought process when they pulled their guns and threatened the store owner's life?

I agree, you need to think before you post lame comments like this. It doesn't speak very highly for your IQ.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/18/2009 10:59:42 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elegantcdgoddess

So after being robbed 30 years ago, he got a gun? Those criminals were then -3, and -7 years old. So when they attempted to rob him, he killed them. The store is selling TV sets. So just because thugs had criminal history, and they had guns it is ok to kill them. Hmmm, should i go out and shoot few of my armed neighbors? just to make sure they dont come over and take my precious TV.

No, the store wasn't selling TV sets.  Did you read the article?

For the record, yes, because the thugs had guns and threatened not just property, BUT THE LIVES OF THE EMPLOYEES, yes, he had the right to kill them.

It's rare that Imus and I agree on much.  I have to give him props for finding one of those areas.

I hope this 72 year old man finds mercy for himself and the position he was forced into.  He has My prayers.


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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/19/2009 2:29:16 AM   
WyldHrt


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Status: offline 		Nicely said, Lady P.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/19/2009 2:43:23 AM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

So after being robbed 30 years ago, he got a gun? Those criminals were then -3, and -7 years old. So when they attempted to rob him, he killed them. The store is selling TV sets. So just because thugs had criminal history, and they had guns it is ok to kill them. Hmmm, should i go out and shoot few of my armed neighbors? just to make sure they dont come over and take my precious TV.

Honestly, you are either taking the piss or seriously deluded.




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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/19/2009 4:32:03 AM   
Loki45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
taking the piss


Ok, as this is the second time I've seen or heard this expression, I have to ask...what the hell does that mean exactly? I mean in both cases, contextually I can get the intended meaning (I think) but what does it really mean?


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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/19/2009 8:16:43 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		Taking the piss means to disrespectfully make fun of someone.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/19/2009 8:48:48 AM   
Arillis


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quote:

I honestly don't give a rip if some one is 16 or 60, if they are trying to kill me they are probably going to die.

I do not consider myself an American cowboy packing heat on each hip although that option is mine if I chose to. I do however possess a canceled weapons permit and arm myself every day. It is both my right and responsibility. Just as another has said after being shot, stabbed and/or beaten to a state of unconsciousness we come to a new awakening, that of the fact our life is just as and in fact even more important then the life of a single or group of thugs setting out to separate me from my property or rape plunder and/or murder a loved one. Allow me to say this a little differently, try me and I will with extreme prejudice introduce you to hell.

< Message edited by Arillis -- 8/19/2009 8:55:04 AM >

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/19/2009 9:23:23 AM   
elegantcdgoddess


Posts: 47
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Status: offline 		Have any of you read the article, or are you just crying about your rights to bear arms, or arm bears whatever it is.

...had been robbed several times before, despite the fact that his shop is around the corner from the 26th Precinct station house...

...struggled with the gunman, who then hit him on the head with the pistol....

...The police said he bought it after a robbery 30 years ago....

...indicating that he did not have a permit for the shotgun....

So what do we have here, police who dont give a shit, old fart with shotgun that he got 30 years ago, didnt bother to register it, and the robber who used the pistol to hit employee in the head. Since we all know that loaded gun is best used to smack someone on the head, i think that old fart reacted irrationally and that tragedy could be avoided in future, if 72 year old person with senile dementia will not pretend to be God and take justice in his hand.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/19/2009 10:41:10 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Taking the piss means to disrespectfully make fun of someone.

Yeah but where are you taking it to and for what purpose?

Is it derived from the idea that while you jabber on I'm actually otherwise preoccupied taking a piss?


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