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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 6:23:06 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Maybe so, but getting rid of guns doesn't seem to have done a whole hell of a lot to stop violent crime in the UK, Starbuck, and a knife will kill you just as dead.

Well said.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 6:43:41 PM

servantforuse

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I think it's a shame that he only killed 1 of them. The other 3 will be back on the street robbing someone else in a few short years..

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 6:47:41 PM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I think it's a shame that he only killed 1 of them. The other 3 will be back on the street robbing someone else in a few short years..

Just what I was thinking. I never 'want' to take a life. Outside of a videogame it's not really on my 'todo' list. However, there is a certain type of people who give others no choice. And I think society is better off without them. I wouldn't 'want' to be the one to have to make that choice and pull that trigger. But if I ever had to be, I would.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 6:55:24 PM

servantforuse

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Ive been robbed twice. one gun, one knife. Not a nice position to be in, but thank God, I'm still here. I have zero sympathy for them..

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 8:15:54 PM

TheHeretic

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As I read the article, Serv, one was killed instantly, another was pronounced dead at the hospital. I'm sorta hoping the wounded survivors wind up with PTSD or something.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 9:07:20 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Think about the blaze orange requirement for a moment. If American hunters could be relied upon to exercise the first and most basic rule of using a firearm, positively identify what you are shooting at before you fire, then we wouldn't have any reason for the blaze orange rule. But we all know that even people wearing blaze orange get shot or shot at every year by hunters who shouldn't even be allowed in the same county as a loaded weapon.

Well, not to nit-pick with a fellow responsible gun owner, but when i hunted I found the blaze orange regulation very comforting. It wasn't so much that I needed it to help me identify what I was shooting at - it was more that I felt a much greater confidence that there wasn't another hunter half-hidden by the brush somewhere near my line of fire, someone I might not have noticed if they were wearing camo.

You should always assume someone is down range wearing camo without orange and verify the target before firing. Failing to do so could kill someone.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 11:17:38 PM

Starbuck09

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Wyldhrt that's not strictly speaking true we still have plenty of crime but the statistics for murder are self evident. America has a murder rate between four and seven times that of Britian.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/16/2009 11:29:29 PM

WyldHrt

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And that is completely due to the fact that y'all have a ban on guns and we don't? I don't think so. Honestly, comparing two different countries and two different cultures is an apples and oranges argument from the get-go, complicated even further by the fact that crime statistics are not standardized in any way and vary widely from country to country. Trying to point to the ban on guns in the UK (or any other factor) as the sole reason for the lower murder rate per capita there just doesn't fly, nor does suggesting that something that works for one country will work for another.

The point of my previous post was to underline the fact that banning guns does not stop violent crime.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 1:31:27 AM

Loki45

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Wyldhrt that's not strictly speaking true we still have plenty of crime but the statistics for murder are self evident. America has a murder rate between four and seven times that of Britian.

By the way, isn't America also about...what...4 to 7 times the SIZE of Britain?

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 1:36:06 AM

cornflakegirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

Wyldhrt that's not strictly speaking true we still have plenty of crime but the statistics for murder are self evident. America has a murder rate between four and seven times that of Britian.

By the way, isn't America also about...what...4 to 7 times the SIZE of Britain?

Those rates are adjusted for population.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 2:48:36 AM

WyldHrt

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Actually, in terms of land mass, the US is a little better than 37 times larger than the UK, with a population merely 5 times (more or less) that of the UK. This is part of what I meant about apples and oranges. Comparing a country with an average of 640 people/sq mile to one with 80 people/ sq mile (246 per sq km vs 31 per sq km) presents some obvious problems.

BTW, apologies if some of my stats are off, it's late here and I pulled them off sites without confirming the math- although I'm quite sure they are close enough to make my point.

< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 8/17/2009 3:11:18 AM >

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 2:55:25 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Think about the blaze orange requirement for a moment. If American hunters could be relied upon to exercise the first and most basic rule of using a firearm, positively identify what you are shooting at before you fire, then we wouldn't have any reason for the blaze orange rule. But we all know that even people wearing blaze orange get shot or shot at every year by hunters who shouldn't even be allowed in the same county as a loaded weapon.

Well, not to nit-pick with a fellow responsible gun owner, but when i hunted I found the blaze orange regulation very comforting. It wasn't so much that I needed it to help me identify what I was shooting at - it was more that I felt a much greater confidence that there wasn't another hunter half-hidden by the brush somewhere near my line of fire, someone I might not have noticed if they were wearing camo.

You should always assume someone is down range wearing camo without orange and verify the target before firing. Failing to do so could kill someone.

and there you go...the reason for the orange regulation.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 5:58:56 AM

servantforuse

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75 % of the murders in this country are gang and drug related. This type of criminal will never adhere to more gun laws..

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 6:04:14 AM

Starbuck09

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No loki the rate per 100,000 people for murde is 4 to seven tmes greater.
I'm not suggesting that banning guns means violent crime wll cease wyldheart what it stops is gun crime. Britain has an appalingly violent culture footbal hooliganism, riots, drunken brawls etc. e.t.c. if we had readily available guns as well the situation woud be much worse. I'm not putting britain forard as the perfect society it is not i'm just pointing out that it is possible to largely stop guncrime if the political will is there. Just over 30,000 people were killed by firearms in America last year 13,000 of which were homicides,Britain had 42. As for loki's question if you times that number by six...

< Message edited by Starbuck09 -- 8/17/2009 6:17:50 AM >

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 6:06:51 AM

Starbuck09

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That's the point servantforuse, so you have to remove guns. it's no good banning firearms if they are being produced at an enormous rate and are available on every street. Do you think that organised crime in the U.K. has more respect for the law than in Britian?

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 6:24:30 AM

IronBear

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One problem of banning guns en mass is that the many genuine gun users/owners are being made to pay and be punished by the out of control minority. I also have a large number of colleagues in GB who would argue and provably so that guns are available on most street corners on the black market for the right price. This has not a single things to do with people who wish to enjoy gun ownership and shooting as a club member or hunting on their land and yes I am well aware that such people can get permits to purchase and use their guns in the appropriate fashion..

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 6:31:15 AM

Starbuck09

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I don't have problem with guns being available in some form Bear. It's just I think the process for obtaining and maintaining one should be very strict indeed. I have no faith whatsoever in the average civilian with regards to their suibtability to be responsible for such a weapon. Guns are always available on the black market for the right price but they are remarkably scarce in Britain Bear [you can still obtain them i'm not denying that] but the process, cost and penalty deters the vast majority of criminals.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 8:51:28 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You should always assume someone is down range wearing camo without orange and verify the target before firing. Failing to do so could kill someone.

Well if you always assume there's someone down range whom you can't see, you would never fire your gun. Right? What you do is assume that there may be, and take every possible precaution to clear your field of fire.

And it has nothing to do with verifying your target - even if you know exactly what you're shooting at, there is always the possibility that another hunter is in the area, partially concealed by brush. The more visible they are, the easier it is to spot them.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 11:13:04 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You should always assume someone is down range wearing camo without orange and verify the target before firing. Failing to do so could kill someone.

Well if you always assume there's someone down range whom you can't see, you would never fire your gun. Right? What you do is assume that there may be, and take every possible precaution to clear your field of fire.

And it has nothing to do with verifying your target - even if you know exactly what you're shooting at, there is always the possibility that another hunter is in the area, partially concealed by brush. The more visible they are, the easier it is to spot them.

Which is once again why you must never shoot at a target you cannot visually verify. IOW don't shoot through what appears to be a bush because it could be a person. Only shoot at an unobstructed clearly visible game animal.

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RE: Another old man and his shotgun... - 8/17/2009 7:26:11 PM

IronBear

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I agree Ken which is why I used to train Security and other folks who may be handling internal armed guard duties never to have offenders in front of plate glass windows but try to manoeuvre them so they are in front of concrete or brick wall which should stop any stray rounds or through and through shots. Sporting shooting wise, here it is more likely that pedigree or otherwise valuable could be accidentally shot rather than another hunter. these days, other than bird hunting with a shot gun, I prefer to bow hunt. makes for better stalking technique and a closer and cleaner shot. Mind you I still on occasions use a sniper rifle and look at extreme range (according to the size of my prey) shots on vermin.

Regarding the debate about USA v GB, it is practically impossible and a waste of time to compare countries because each country has inherently differing cultures and especially gun cultures as well as differing racial and economic groupings and are sociological different and thus there are few if any points of reference on which to have a sensible debate. Perhaps this is where we all here, as civilized, aware and thinking people can shake hands and agree to disagree..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 8/17/2009 7:31:40 PM >

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